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    #216438 05/17/15 11:10 AM
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    smmtvw Offline OP
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    Hi all,

    Apparently I joined a long time ago, but I had forgotten and had to find my user info again. I say that by way of introduction because I am very new here. I am hoping I have chosen the correct chat room(?) for this topic, if not I apologize. My son is 10yo. He is working his way through Dolciani's Algebra Book 1 mostly by reading the explanation and doing the problems. We are here if he gets stuck but we usually only have to help with a problem or two here and there. We live in the educational backwater of America, a small town with schools that are happy to rate 2 stars on anyone's rating system, and usually only rate 1 because there is no 0. My son lasted in the public school system until Feb in K then was in a private school until the beginning of third grade. That was when I discovered the child had figured out how to manipulate the system so that he would have all free time and never have to progress in the private school program. It really is a good private school, but when they told me my son was not gifted I knew it wasn't going to work for him. At the end of second grade he had asked to work from the red book (his current math book). I asked him some abstraction questions to get a feel for what he could understand and discovered to my amazement that he was ready. He completed arithmetic in 5 months, I then insisted he do Thinkwell's prealgebra to make sure we hadn't missed anything. He passed without trouble and started Book 1. We aren't as strong in English as we are in math and so he has less support in Language Arts (LA). However he has made some wonderful strides this year in a middle school essay course offered at our local homeschool resource. Unfortunately they do not have another course that would fit him as well. We have settled on returning to MCT LA, which we really enjoyed but I found hard to administer. My husband will act as teacher this time.

    That is the background and the point we are at. I have several questions. At 10 my son is at the tail end of the testing period for gifted kids. We would have to go to another city to get him tested and we don't really need the information. The only reason I can think of to do so is to gain access to the online portion of CTY. We wouldn't be able to afford any of the classes, but there is a forum there my son might like. On the other hand he is enjoying the scratch forum he is on right now, so there may be no need. I can estimate his IQ as being somewhere in the 140's, and that makes sense since mine was tested in the 130's so somewhere around there would be likely. What opinions are out there on our situation and having him tested?

    We are also trying to understand our options. There is a junior college here in town with some very basic courses. Our current plan is to have him finish the Dolciani series and MCT, along with some science and social studies online, and then have him start at the junior college here in town. We understand that if he receives his AA while we are here our state laws grant him a highschool diploma. So it was our thought to use that. I am thinking eventually he will want to go to CalTech or a similar institute of technology. I am hoping he will consider a PhD someday also, since I think he would really love that level of work. What thoughts do all of you have? Pros and cons? Other things we ought to consider? Things that are out there that we might not know about?

    Thanks to all of you,

    (I am going to let the system sign this. I have no idea what it will do so it will be a surprise to all of us. But since it comes up checked I figure I probably ought to know what it does.)

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    Welcome!

    It sounds like you are giving your son just what I needed as a kid! From the perspective of adulthood, I have some ideas for how to prepare a young me.

    CTY doesn't require psych testing, just standardized achievement tests. Homeschool parents can self-nominate, then you choose a test such as the SAT or their own SCAT. Several of these are available by appointment at a computer based testing center. It's a fairly low-stress experience and not terribly expensive.

    CTY programs, on the other hand, are expensive - but we found a summer CTY program to be a good reality check for how DD would interact in a classroom environment that was properly paced for her. She had some study and cooperation habits to learn after her previous school experiences. If you would be able to afford a private school, well, a 3-week program is less expensive than a year of tuition... It's also good to have a gifted social experience, especially for a smart kid isolated in a rural backwater. Speaking from my own experience.

    Also speaking from my own experience and first-hand observations, students who attended a similar institute of technology with the sort of pre-college experience you describe tended to be lost and underprepared, even while they were actually able to do the work. Junior colleges don't have the pacing expectations of a top-flight school, and it can be quite a shock to make that transition. It was hard for me to figure out how much effort I was supposed to put in, or how to do it; I had occasionally had to study a list of facts, but I'd never had to work to understand anything before. I had never met anyone else who was near my academic level. This was a handicap.

    For now, at 10, the junior college sounds like a good plan. By high school - that is, four years before you anticipate college - a more intense experience with intellectual peers will be important. The students who had attended elite summer programs for several years in a row were well-prepared to do their best when they arrived on campus. They were by far the best adjusted kids at the school, and I envied them. CTY isn't the only one of these programs, so shop around a bit if it doesn't seem to fit your son.

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    If your child likes math, he may like Alcumus, a free online program through Art of Problem Solving with an active online forum with math-loving kids. I have also heard that there are few curriculums better than the AoPS books for math-loving kids, but that they are very challenging.

    When he is older, I have heard that the Davidson THINK summer program is good. Worth looking into....

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    Also don't forget free courses online through Edx

    https://www.edx.org/

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    Thank you to both of you for your ideas. I appreciate your suggestions and sharing your experiences. I will see about summer programs, that might be doable for us, but I believe he has to be 12 before he can go to the residential ones. As for CTY my child has had a standardized test and my understanding is that because of that I cannot self nominate. Part of my quandary with testing is that he learns algebra 1 almost without trying but tends to score low on standardized tests. I know that can be an indication of 2e, but I think in this case it is test bias. I have never tried to teach all of the things the public schools do, and probably never will. I know that will put him at a disadvantage on the tests designed around their curriculum. I have seen things like my son missing the question on what plants need to grow because he knows they don't need sunlight since we had a small hydroponic garden in our basement. In our home it was that plants needed a particular spectrum of light either provided by the sun or by a special artificial light. He told me later he just randomly chose something because all of the answers were wrong. Can I still nominate him? Or is there someone else that will look at his demonstrable capabilities instead of tests? Or is an IQ test our only recourse?

    I have looked at Art of Problem solving and if math was his passion I would probably try to swing it. They have some great stuff. But my son is a computer science kid, he does math because he knows he is expected to. He neither likes it nor dislikes it since we arranged for him to be in the right level. (He hated arithmetic and timed basic facts tests with a passion.) But when he has free time he spends it learning scratch and watching The Great Courses course on cybersecurity. The last time he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up he told them "computer programmer." Last week if I wanted him to do something all I had to do was tie it somehow to nanotechnology and he was all in. Hence my thinking he will be interested in one of the Institutes of Technology when it is time. One of my quandaries is when is it time? I know MIT will take students as young as 15, but I see pros and cons to that. In our current plan my son will earn his AA around 15, give or take a year. So this is also something I have been trying to understand and perspectives would be welcome.

    I haven't spent much time at Edx but I know that Coursera has a cybersecurity cert they offer for a reasonable price. I think my son might be interested in that when he has completed the prereqs. They had a couple of other certs I think he might be interested in in the future as well. I will also check out what Edx has to offer.

    Thank you to both of you.

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    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    As for CTY my child has had a standardized test and my understanding is that because of that I cannot self nominate.
    CTY requires a SCAT test at a local testing center and costs less than $100 and is taken on a computer. Is that what you are mentioning or is it something else? (DYS, on the other hand requires IQ test results or an Explore-test/Portfolio option).

    ETA: If your child had an ITBS like test that you self administered, then it should be OK to send in the scores to CTY for qualification to take SCAT. The test results are from the test provider, so it does not matter who the nominator is.

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    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    I will see about summer programs, that might be doable for us, but I believe he has to be 12 before he can go to the residential ones.
    CTY's summer residential programs start after 5th grade, and don't seem to have an age limit for grade-skipped students. What grade is your DS officially in? DD went at 11 and 12 and had a great time.

    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    As for CTY my child has had a standardized test and my understanding is that because of that I cannot self nominate. Part of my quandary with testing is that he learns algebra 1 almost without trying but tends to score low on standardized tests. I know that can be an indication of 2e, but I think in this case it is test bias. I have never tried to teach all of the things the public schools do, and probably never will.
    This is two items: eligibility for talent search, and likely success in the talent search exam. For eligibility, I think you can probably still self-nominate if the tests are a year old. Email and ask if you aren't sure. For likely success, we had DD do the STB spatial tests instead because that's her strength. It's just a set of spatial logic problems and doesn't assess anything you would see in school. (It only qualifies the student for science/math programs.) We were pretty convinced she would do poorly on the typical academic exams. She surprised us last fall when she took the SCAT to qualify for the 7+ programs and did very well.

    My DD isn't interested in programming, but the iDTech programs near me get some good reviews. And some bad ones. Something to investigate. They don't have a qualifying exam, which has its ups and downs.

    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    One of my quandaries is when is it time? I know MIT will take students as young as 15, but I see pros and cons to that. In our current plan my son will earn his AA around 15, give or take a year. So this is also something I have been trying to understand and perspectives would be welcome.
    Social maturity was critical to college success, as far as I could see. One young admitee I know railed repeatedly that it was "no place to grow up." Things may have changed since I was there, but in your place I would be looking for ways to keep my DD busy until her 17th birthday. She would have to convince me she was really socially ready to go earlier.

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    smmtvw Offline OP
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    Hmmm... I was thinking of the "Who can participate?" page at the CTY website. The way I read it my son has to score outstanding some other test to be able to register for the SCAT or the SAT through talent search.

    I do not understand your ETA comment, but would really like to. Could I give him the test here at home proctored by me and use the scores? Is that how it works? I don't see a way to purchase it on the website I found, is there another way to get it?

    Thank you for your help.

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    smmtvw Offline OP
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    Thank you for your suggestions. I will look into them.

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    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    Hmmm... I was thinking of the "Who can participate?" page at the CTY website. The way I read it my son has to score outstanding some other test to be able to register for the SCAT or the SAT through talent search.

    I do not understand your ETA comment, but would really like to. Could I give him the test here at home proctored by me and use the scores? Is that how it works? I don't see a way to purchase it on the website I found, is there another way to get it?

    Thank you for your help.

    Sorry, I thought that you might already have given a "standardized" test at home - I thought that maybe your state required it for homeschoolers. If not, then, yes, you need an outstanding score in a standardized test that CTY accepts. Most homeschoolers I know who want to qualify for CTY buy the ITBS and self administer. I don't know how to do it personally, but the homeschooling forums elsewhere on the internet has a lot of details on how to buy the test and self-administer it.
    (There are other options too - the ERB-CTP4 can be taken for a fee at a test center - you might want to call them to find out the details. Or your local school district might let your child take the standardized test along with their students.)
    Good luck.

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    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    Hmmm... I was thinking of the "Who can participate?" page at the CTY website. The way I read it my son has to score outstanding some other test to be able to register for the SCAT or the SAT through talent search.

    I do not understand your ETA comment, but would really like to. Could I give him the test here at home proctored by me and use the scores? Is that how it works? I don't see a way to purchase it on the website I found, is there another way to get it?

    Thank you for your help.

    You don't need any standardized tests or other tests to be able to take the SCAT test for CTY. I simply registered my boys for the test, got the email confirmation soon after and subsequently took them to the Prometric test center to take the test. A few days later I checked their profile online and saw that they had been accepted for both math and verbal programs and could attend an award ceremony if they wanted to. After a few days afterwards CTY sent the formal paperwork.

    Below is the link to register (I chose the first option to register online)
    http://cty.jhu.edu/talent/enroll/


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    Originally Posted by smmtvw
    I have looked at Art of Problem solving and if math was his passion I would probably try to swing it. They have some great stuff. But my son is a computer science kid, he does math because he knows he is expected to. He neither likes it nor dislikes it since we arranged for him to be in the right level. (He hated arithmetic and timed basic facts tests with a passion.) But when he has free time he spends it learning scratch and watching The Great Courses course on cybersecurity. The last time he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up he told them "computer programmer." Last week if I wanted him to do something all I had to do was tie it somehow to nanotechnology and he was all in.

    Thank you to both of you.

    I think you have the right idea here, to tie in his love of computer programming with other topics in technology you'd like him to be exposed to. You can do the same for math, you can buy him books on Crytography and see what he thinks (there are a few for kids on Amazon). Perhaps that will make him more interested in Math, when he learns how it is related to cybersecurity.

    Formal study of computer science later on requires a lot of Math.

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    The nomination stuff at CTY is more of a self-screening process. My son did not have any thing when he applied. Just checked off a box somewhere. The only thing CTY will care about is his scat score. good luck

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