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    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Never a dull moment.

    Yesterday, teacher sends email saying DS has detention tomorrow for excessive talking, blurting out, etc.

    When she told him he had detention, he responded with "it is only 15 minutes of my time." The last time he was assigned detention, he was hysterical...so *I* (thinking I was being helpful) tried to help him with perspective, by explaining it is not the end of the world, and is only 15 minutes of his time.

    She perceived his response as flippant--which I understand. I am not sure how to teach my son not to say things like this to his teachers. He does not seem to have any understanding of how to interact without being offensive.

    Any advice? It seems like he needs direct instruction on every possible scenario--what to say, what not to say, how his behavior is perceived, etc. When I try to talk to him about these things--his underlying cluelessness becomes more and more apparent.

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    Maybe the teacher could be the bigger person and show grace? And you can explain about not saying things like that to teachers.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Never a dull moment.

    Indeed. That is how we roll too.

    Eco, you are doing a fantastic job, and so is DS. There are just some more things to learn.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    Yesterday, teacher sends email saying DS has detention tomorrow for excessive talking, blurting out, etc.

    I think of this as a May Problem. The teacher is ready to be done and short of patience. Also probably has no idea that there could be a disability involved, OR knows but is too tired to care.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    When she told him he had detention, he responded with "it is only 15 minutes of my time." The last time he was assigned detention, he was hysterical...so *I* (thinking I was being helpful) tried to help him with perspective, by explaining it is not the end of the world, and is only 15 minutes of his time.

    That WAS helpful. These coping statements one makes to oneself are the single best way of managing anxiety. I use them all the time. Over time you can teach DS to use them in many different situations-- they work beautifully.

    The only problem was saying it out loud. Gotta work on saying it in the head instead.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    She perceived his response as flippant--which I understand. I am not sure how to teach my son not to say things like this to his teachers. He does not seem to have any understanding of how to interact without being offensive.

    Yep. He can learn to do this.

    We worked on "when you have annoyed someone who has authority (teacher, police officer), the only thing you can really do is apologize and fix the problem."

    We learned the four-part apology that floated around the internet a while back:
    --say "I'm sorry"
    --say why ("I talked too much in class.")
    --say why it was wrong ("I know it annoys you when I don't stop talking for a while.")
    --talk about the future ("I'll try to control myself better in the future"); fix the problem if possible

    The idea here is to know how to take action to fix the relationship when you've annoyed someone. He took the good, necessary step of coping with the consequence but didn't know to repair the relationship. The 4-part apology is a rote-like strategy, but useful in so many situations and helps everyone in the situation feel better.

    If you make a lot of mistakes, it is worth while to be an expert apologizer.

    Originally Posted by eco21268
    It seems like he needs direct instruction on every possible scenario--what to say, what not to say, how his behavior is perceived, etc. When I try to talk to him about these things--his underlying cluelessness becomes more and more apparent.

    You are doing a great job identifying the problem and I am so impressed that he could deploy the coping statement after one conversation. He has the perfect parent for him (you). You both are going to get there.

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    You could explain to him that this is about mismatched expectations on the part of the teacher, how when an authority figure resorts to discipline, the primary reaction they're looking for is some sort of humble contrition, and anything else suggests they're doing it wrong, and need to find another button to push (or, in the case of the teacher, react with powerless anger)...

    ... but if you do, you've also just given him a tool to use against YOU.

    I'm pretty sure most kids figure this out by their early teens anyway.

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    Originally Posted by eco21268
    I am not sure how to teach my son not to say things like this to his teachers. He does not seem to have any understanding of how to interact without being offensive.

    Any advice? It seems like he needs direct instruction on every possible scenario--what to say, what not to say, how his behavior is perceived, etc. When I try to talk to him about these things--his underlying cluelessness becomes more and more apparent.

    There was a story (I believe in Aesop's fable) about a tortoise and the birds.

    Once upon atime, a tortoise lived in a lake. He was very friendly and he was friends with many animals including birds who came to drink water from the lake. One summer, it was so hot and the lake was getting dry. And two birds who came over to drink said to the tortoise that there was a large lake several miles away but it was too far for him to walk. The tortoise had an idea. He asked the tow birds to carry a stick and he would hold on to the stick with his mouth and that way, they could take him to the new lake. The birds agreed and they flew the tortoise over. On the way to the lake, they passed a small village and when the kids saw them, they cheered and praised the birds about how smart they were and how they thought outside the box, etc... The tortoise got quite angry because it was his idea. So, he opened his mouth to protest. You know what happened after this....

    The moral of the story is some of the things you say may get you in trouble. Sometimes, it is wise to keep it to yourself.

    Sometimes, I would change the contents a little bit to get the moral that fits the situation. (Sometimes, I had to do it because I do not remember all the detail) blush And change the wording like talkative to friendly, etc.... so that it is more palatable.

    Hope that helps.

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    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    --say why it was wrong ("I know it annoys you when I don't stop talking for a while.")
    Some may say this statement has the potential to further disrupt the student-teacher relationship, as it may seem to blame the teacher's "annoyance", rather than demonstrate an understanding that the student's actions disrupted the class, interrupted the teaching process, or distracted others from hearing.

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    I am so grateful for all of these responses. I talked to him today about how it is his best interest for his teachers to have a positive view of him. I asked him if he knows what "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" means...and he did.

    Funny--I had already encouraged (actually bribed) him to approach this teacher with an apology. I told him I would reward him for "risk-taking" and making himself vulnerable.

    He stated (and this is true) that it does not bother him to apologize, but it bothers him to apologize to *her* because she is so easily offended. When he told me the whole story, I understand his perspective. He blurted out the correct answer to a math problem when no other student had it correct but the teacher was refusing to call on him because he was "acting like an orangutan" (he demonstrated the behavior and yes, he was being ridiculous). But at least he was on task and engaged, so I'll take that (little mercies).

    I told him I am still challenging him to stretch himself by demonstrating an ability to understand her perception that he was a smart-alek. I really don't like to encourage Machiavellian behavior because his (brutal) honesty is one of his loveliest characteristics in a lot of ways...but he just *has* to learn that there IS a game, and up his "charm factor" a little.

    The teacher knows he has ADHD and med issues, and that we are seeking further clarification. However, at one point I asked all of the teachers if they see his EF as the biggest issue (so I could communicate with his therapist), and she responded by saying NO, that was not the issue...and then listing a number of behaviors that are all governed by EF.

    I have given up on anyone understanding him at this point. I offered him either a very fancy frozen custard treat OR a steak if he can muster the courage to apologize to the teacher. He said, "you really think you can get me with BEEF? Well...you might be right."

    I am so excited school is almost over.


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    Originally Posted by Portia
    There is a social curriculum which is popular and can be used by Michelle Garcia Winner. The introduction is called "You are a Social Detective". Then she has the full curriculum called "Super Flex". Some social therapists use this for their programs.

    To help with scaffolding and practice, a social therapy group would be helpful.

    Others have also found acting as helpful. It provides a script for different situations so they can learn appropriate behavior without setting themselves up for rejection.

    Hope that helps.

    This does help, a lot, thank you! The problem with finding a social skills group is the only ones I know about are for kids who have pretty severe cognitive and/or behavioral issues and that's not what we're dealing with at this point. There needs to be one for highly-verbal kids WITH their peers. My son is quite sweet with younger children and wonderful with adults. It's interaction with his own tribe that seems to cause most of the problems.

    Originally Posted by DeeDee
    You are doing a great job identifying the problem and I am so impressed that he could deploy the coping statement after one conversation. He has the perfect parent for him (you). You both are going to get there.
    I guess, technically, it was one conversation but it was a verrrrrry long one. The first time this happened, he was in total panic/meltdown mode (it was a joke about points on coordinate planes, that time). I kept him home from school and spent the day deescalating. These two detentions have both stemmed from the fact they use a token economy system and he keeps LOSING (literally) his currency so doesn't have it to pay when he needs it. So a relatively small offense can result in what seems to him like a major consequence (detention). THERE IS NO MORE OF THIS SYSTEM NEXT YEAR. Whew!

    I will say there has been a certain amount of relief in conceptualizing this as a social communication problem (duh!) instead of a personality issue. I can't believe I didn't realize it before, to tell the truth. I think a huge part of the problem is that he appears to be so verbally mature and the entirety of his issue just didn't reveal itself until this year.

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    Originally Posted by indigo
    Some may say this statement has the potential to further disrupt the student-teacher relationship, as it may seem to blame the teacher's "annoyance", rather than demonstrate an understanding that the student's actions disrupted the class, interrupted the teaching process, or distracted others from hearing.
    In this case, I think it WAS her annoyance, which is pretty evident in her communication. Oh well. My new mantra: they don't have to like him. :P

    I can't imagine having so little patience with children but I'm an odd duck, apparently. I've taught from 1st-12th grades and don't recall ever being so irritated by a student who was excited about the subject, even if they acted silly about it. Live and learn (my other new mantra).

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    My DS8 has some social skills deficits that we are addressing through therapy. It is helping him to understand that "other people have thoughts about what we say and do." So basic, but he really did not *get* this concept until social group therapy.
    He can come across as argumentative, defiant, disrespectful, or bothersome-- and it was heartbreaking because he's not truly oppositional and so.... wants to be liked and valued.

    The social therapy is helping him to understand *why* other people react to him in negative ways, and he's starting to be able to adjust his behavior accordingly (the second part will be a long work in progress). Before, DS just did not understand why people weren't onboard with his agenda or why teachers and peers did not appreciate his blunt honesty. For instance, when he did not begin a class assignment on "what I learned my field trip" because "he already knew the stuff being taught, and he didn't learn anything." (literally, he said this to his teacher).


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