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    I have worked with a lot of children and I think EF is a lot like IQ. If you have average IQ, enrichment activities starting early on may raise your scores by a standard deviation but it will be in the same ball park that your genetics would indicate. If you have average EF and you build the skills they may become high average but that is about it. For example, based on scores we have from childhood, I would be HG and have average to high average EF skills I would guess. My husband is MG but has the best EF skills I may have ever seen. I am fairly successful, he is off the charts successful. Leads all sorts of organizations, advanced very quickly at work was an intel science award winner and very successful academically. I did well compared to the general population but he is the one who is really outstanding. Our IQ scores would not indicate this to be the case, I think EF scores are more important than IQ they are just harder to measure so we emphasize IQ scores.

    Last edited by sallymom; 04/28/15 07:11 AM.
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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
    It is lower on average than in older children and adults, but differences in self-control in 4-year-olds on the Marshmallow Test predicted later outcomes. Walter Mischel has a recent book The Marshmallow Test: Mastering Self-Control (2014).

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/12/marshmallow-test.aspx
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    In a series of studies that began in the late 1960s and continue today, psychologist Walter Mischel, PhD, found that children who, as 4-year-olds, could resist a tempting marshmallow placed in front of them, and instead hold out for a larger reward in the future (two marshmallows), became adults who were more likely to finish college and earn higher incomes, and were less likely to become overweight.
    So what's the lesson to take from this? It's not that the marshmallow test is destiny and that preschoolers who fail it are doomed, Mischel says. Instead, the good news is that the strategies the successful preschoolers used can be taught to people of all ages. By harnessing the power of executive function and self-control strategies, we can all improve our ability to achieve our goals.

    I wonder how to reconcile these assertions with the paper I cited finding that differences in executive function are genetic.

    I thought the book Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength (2012) by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney was good.

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    I think that EF encompasses so many things. Sure in the studies above you measured impulsivity and delay of gratification. Those skills are very important and I am sure they can be improved. However, things like fluid reasoning, sequential thinking, and working memory (higher order EF) are more innate and are probably more predictive of academic success.

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    How does one reconcile all this information on Executive Function with the research that says that highly gifted children start out with "a relatively thinner cortex", than peers "that thickened rapidly, peaking by age 11 or 12 before thinning" http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2006/cortex-matures-faster-in-youth-with-highest-iq.shtml

    "The researchers found that the relationship between cortex thickness and IQ varied with age, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, seat of abstract reasoning, planning, and other "executive" functions".

    Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?

    Last edited by stemfun; 04/28/15 08:45 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Isn't executive function somewhat absent by default in 4 year olds?
    It is lower on average than in older children and adults, but differences in self-control in 4-year-olds on the Marshmallow Test predicted later outcomes. Walter Mischel has a recent book The Marshmallow Test: Mastering Self-Control (2014).

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/12/marshmallow-test.aspx
    Quote
    In a series of studies that began in the late 1960s and continue today, psychologist Walter Mischel, PhD, found that children who, as 4-year-olds, could resist a tempting marshmallow placed in front of them, and instead hold out for a larger reward in the future (two marshmallows), became adults who were more likely to finish college and earn higher incomes, and were less likely to become overweight.
    So what's the lesson to take from this? It's not that the marshmallow test is destiny and that preschoolers who fail it are doomed, Mischel says. Instead, the good news is that the strategies the successful preschoolers used can be taught to people of all ages. By harnessing the power of executive function and self-control strategies, we can all improve our ability to achieve our goals.

    I wonder how to reconcile these assertions with the paper I cited finding that differences in executive function are genetic.

    I thought the book Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength (2012) by Roy F. Baumeister and John Tierney was good.

    And what's even more interesting is follow-ups that have been done with the marshmallow test that find that adults can influence child behavior/impulse control on the marshmallow test with their own behavior. One factor is the reliability of the adult's behavior/promises. In one variant, the adult makes a promise to the child ("I have a big box of art materials that you can use"), and keeps it, while in the alternate condition, the adult breaks the promise ("I'm sorry, it looks like someone borrowed my art box, but you can have these four crayons, instead."). Those children who experienced the reliable adult were able to hold out significantly longer than the children who were disappointed.

    These findings are interpreted as meaning that children who experience the world (that is, adult caregivers) as reliable and predictable can afford to delay gratification, while those in unpredictable environments must take what they can, while they can.


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    Originally Posted by stemfun
    Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?


    Well, my DYS daughter just turned 11, and she has made huge leaps in the quality of her executive function in the last few months. So that's consistent, at least.

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    IIRC, there are quite a few studies showing that EF can be improved with training. One thing I remember because it was so simple is that Simon Says is a good game for improving EF.

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    FWIW, I don't feel my DD has high EF but she sure aced the hell out of the marshmallow test. (She turned the other way and sang a a song. Done! My son had a harder time--he cried a little, but managed.)

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    Originally Posted by Tigerle
    I had a 6yo DS who was unable to so much as locate and put on his socks without constant parental input, all the while his 2 yo sister was changing her own diaper.
    Anyone wants to try and tell me this is NOT genetics? smile

    Oh the power of recombinant DNA - LOL


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    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    Originally Posted by stemfun
    Based on this research one will expect that most highly gifted children will not demonstrate high EF before the age on 11 or 12 and that most kids with high EF before this age will not be highly gifted kids. I wonder if that is the experience of most parents on this board?


    Well, my DYS daughter just turned 11, and she has made huge leaps in the quality of her executive function in the last few months. So that's consistent, at least.

    I agree.

    We despaired of our 16yo DD ever being able to survive in a college setting back when she was 8 or 9. It was really striking that her EF wasn't as good even as some of her agemates.

    Now, it's as good as (and in some regards much better) than her academic peers who are 3-8y older.


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