Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Wppsi-IV Interpretation and scatter help?

Hi! I found you all through google searches related to asynchronous development, insatiable curiousity, teaching yourself to read, and existential questions from preschool kids. My kid is a big thinker and super verbal. Anyway, DS5's older brother is ASD and DS5 has been in preschool disabled program getting OT for small motor and PT as well, but not getting a dx of ASD at all. Upon reevaluation from the school they gave him the WPPSI-IV and the WJ tests of oral language and test of achievement. His achievement score is in the 90s %wise with writing a score in the 4th% dragging down the super high reading and language scores. His IQ test shows 10 subtests which had even more spread with standard scores of a surprising 4 for Picture Concepts, 6 for zoo locations, but 14 for Picture Memory, and in the teens for both Verbal Comprehension subtests. The FISQ is not gifted, and I know these scores aren't either, but with that much spread and difference from the achievement test, what am I looking at? If achievement testing is so much higher than IQ testing because of so much spread is it still valid? Wouldn't that mean he was performing at a higher level than he should be? If lower achievement than IQ indicates an LD what does higher achievement than IQ mean? Are they going to tell me I'm a hothouser, because I swear I've never bought this kid a workbook or flashcard in my life! Whats with the very high verbal ability and not so high other things? Sorry if this doesn't make sense, but any indication of what I am looking at would be great. Thanks ahead of time!

The zoo locations could be fine motor related. Have you got the actual scores? If you ask us not to quote you can go back and delete them later.

Zoo locations is a visual-spatial memory task, but requires a motor response (placing cards in the correct location), which could have been a factor (he is receiving OT/PT, correct?). The lower performance could be related to fine motor, perceptual, or perceptual-motor speed (because if it takes a long time to place the cards, you have more time to forget where they are going), any of which could have resulted in the OT services being needed. The related picture memory subtest can be scored on either verbal or motor responses, which is probably why it was less affected by OT-related concerns.

Picture concepts is a measure of fluid reasoning. How was the other subtest in that cluster (matrix reasoning)? I notice you mention his high reading and language scores. Was math not as high? That often lines up with relatively lower fluid reasoning and visual-spatial scores.

If you have ten subtests, including two verbal subtests, you should have all five primary index scores, which should allow you to see any diversity among the cognitive skill areas. (BTW, the low picture concepts and zoo locations scores aren't in his FSIQ, unless substitutions were made, which seems unlikely.) Is the VCI much higher?

90th %ile is not significantly different from a scaled score of 14. Keeping in mind that the WPPSI-IV and WJIV (I assume that was the IV and not the III, since the WJ was described as oral language and tests of achievement) were not co-normed, nor do they have good linking data, some caution should be exercised when comparing their results for discrepancies.

And finally, young children often are not able to demonstrate the full range of their capabilities in formal testing, just because they are young. Children with disabilities frequently generate low estimates in the primary years.

I don't think the scores look hothoused; I suspect they look like a young child with high verbal ability and perceptual-motor deficits, and the achievement scores to match. (Including the low writing scores.)

ETA: assuming the scores are as I suspect them to be.

Ok, thanks. I'm just feeling more like a crazy person for even being here but everything else about him pointed to more of a 120 than a FISQ of 103. Still I'm learning a lot from all of you on the emotional side and his obsession with death.

WPPSI_IV

Information 14
Similarities 13
Matrix Reasoning 8
Picture Concepts 4
Bug Search 7
Cancellation 8
Block Design 7
Object Assembly 9
Picture Memory 14
Zoo Locations 6

So yeah the VCI is 120 VSI 89 FRI 77 WMI 100 PSI 86 FISC 103
Yet at T-Ball just now he was explaining to the boy next him about nerve impulses traveling to his brain so he can feel when the bat hits the ball while the other kid looked at him like he was an alien.
Thanks again!

Right so the WJ IV had Scaled Scores of

Oral Language 119
Oral Expression 95
Picture Vocab 123
Oral Comprehension 111
Sentence Repetition 80

Reading 126
Written Language 90
Academic Applications 98
Brief Achievement 122

Letter Word Ident 128
Applied Problems 107
Spelling 119
Passage Comprehension 125
Writing Samples 74

So that's pretty much what you imagined right? Thank you for naming the ones where his motor issues would hold him back, I wonder if there is also some auditory or visual component? So I guess its not such a difference between this test and the iq? I just know with my other son they had the Achievement/IQ discrepancy chart to explain his achievement vs potential so I figured they'd do reference that with this little guy as well but it would be backwards. No? I'm still learning lol Thanks!

Yes, that is pretty much what I was expecting. I think the cognitive and achievement results are pretty consistent. It's just when you compare the individual achievement areas to the full scale IQ that they appear discrepant. But that's not really apples to apples.

His cognitive profile is consistent with not only his motor issues, but perceptual (visual) issues as well, as neither of the fluid reasoning subtests would be expected to be notably affected by pure motor delays.

Interesting that he did so well on picture memory, which is a sequential memory task that requires visual memory, but can be mediated by verbal memory, but not very well on sentence repetition, which is also a sequential memory task mediated by verbal memory, but without visual supports. I wonder if his motor issues affect his oral-motor skills, which might impact lengthier oral expression (not cognitive language, but physically formulating sentences in an efficient manner).

Hello again!
Two years later we are still trying to figure this little guy out. He's doing great in school except for anything that has to do with writing or that is timed, and the kids still don't get him. His teacher is worried about his attention as he will ask questions about the inner workings of thunderstorms during phonics instruction or he will tune her out and miss directions. They put an aide in his IEP for next year. He also occasionally cries at school that he is worried about me, again during instruction that might just be repetitive for him.
Signed him up for a developmental eval at a nearby children's hospital. The intake social worker mentioned all the things I had looked up, dysgraphia, AdHD inattentive, Nonverbal learning disorder, Auditory or Visual Processing problems, but said working off of the IQ and Achievement tests of two years ago would be fine. DS7's appointment is in November for the neuro-developmental workup. (His school reevaluation testing is next spring, after his November appointment.)
My question is, wouldn't it be better to have recent scores if we are basing diagnoses and all my educational advocacy on them? Is the difference between taking the tests at 5 and 7 years old likely to be different if maturity and comfort with taking tests and doing challenging things has increased?
I think I will seek outside testing but I just am not sure if its necessary if the social worker was not concerned with the tests being two years old.
How much of these diagnoses are based on IQ and achievement and how much are based on behavior?
Thanks!!

I would prefer updated testing to two-plus-year-old testing for discussing the diagnostic possibilities mentioned, especially at this age. A whole lot changes during these particular years, and much of the relevant data for dysgraphia and NVLD, in particular, are closely tied to the cognitive and achievement testing. In most states, you may request earlier re-evaluation for this fall, rather than waiting until next spring (this is only pulling it up by a few months, after all). If you ask now (in writing, of course), the district should be able to have him lined up for September in-school testing, which will enable you to bring that data to the November neurodevelopmental. You might seek clarification as to what the neurodevelopmental entails, as they may or may not include some of the same kinds of testing.

Thanks! What if, say, you took the same Child Study Team to court over placement of your ASD older child? Would you still be comfortable requesting testing by them for your younger child or do you think you would suggest going outside to ensure impartiality? (In fairness, they did the age 5 testing so I have already trusted them once.)

Testing is a different question from eligibility/placement/services. If the relationship is contentious, I could see it affecting the latter, but not necessarily the former. The issue isn't usually the testing data, but decisions about implementing recommendations issuing from the testing. Full disclosure: I'm usually on the other side of the table, so, naturally, in that role I believe in the validity of my own testing results...