Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Opinions/experiences - early 1st with this profile

Our local school district cutoff is August 31, which meant DS, born in late October, was just slightly too young to enter Kindergarten last year. He is in a private Montessori program this year (was previously in a general daycare/preschool). I had hoped he'd be able to enroll in the public Montessori program which combines grades K-2 to get the best of both worlds as far as "age appropriate grade" and "ability appropriate work", but he lost the lottery. It seems he will be stuck in a regular classroom. Now my dilemna is.... settle for Kindergarten, or shoot for 1st grade?

I'm hoping to hear advice/other experiences. I have literally no one
else to talk to about this except you very fine strangers on the Internet.

Anyway, DS (currently 5.5) recently took the WPPSI and his scores are kind of allover the place, which the tester said wasn't too abnormal for his age, plus he just squeaks in as qualifying for ADHD.

Verbal comprehension: 105, 63%
Visual spatial: 148, 99.9%
Fluid Reasoning: 124, 95%
Working memory: 116, 86%
Processing speed: 97, 42%
Full scale: 123, 94%

The reviewer wrote the results "should be considered an underestimation... due to challenges related to motivation" which more or less translates to DS refusing to play along.

Block design : 19
Information : 15
Matrix reasoning: 14
Bug Search : 12
Picture Memory : 12
Similarities : 7
Picture Concepts: 14
Cancellation : 7
Zoo Locations : 13
Object Assembly : 17

The evaluator noted that "on similarities, sometimes [he] answered with more complex answers than were necessary. This likely supressed his score". I believe cancellation is the subtest where he did the form as if it were connecting the dots.

On the WIAT-III, his overall achievemenet:
Early Reading Skills : 75%
Math Problem Solving : 93%
Written Expression : 66%
Oral Expression : 55%
Listening Comprehension: 58%
Total : 84%

It was noted that his oral expression scores were suppressed by his "refusal to continue" on the oral word fluency subtest.

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Long story short, his test scores are likely an underestimate of abilities as stated by the evaluator, he may have ADHD, and may be comparatively weak in processing speed. However, his achievement is above average for his age; the grade-comparisons the evaluator showed me (but didn't include in the report) showed him working at or above mid-Kindergarten level in all areas. His Montessori teacher has said he thinks he would be ok in 1st grade next year.

It seems like he'd be better off NOT in a K classroom learning things he already knows... I don't know why I'm so reluctant to plunge ahead.

How is your relationship with the school? (Am I remembering correctly that this is the same one his big sister is at?) Do you think that you might be able to swing K this year followed by a grade skip to 2nd? A year of primarily focusing on social skills seems like it wouldn't be out of place for him. But if you think you're more likely to get early entrance to 1st grade than a later skip, maybe you should do it now.

Yes, my DD goes to this school. At our parent-teacher conference 2 weeks ago, both my daughter's teacher and the special ed teacher she works with said they'd be in favor of him entering early based on their experience with DD. The special ed teacher had recently spent a couple hours hanging out with DS because she was DD's mentor at the state science fair.

However, it's worth pointing out that DD's processing speed is also in the PG range, whereas I suspect DS's processing speed may in fact be comparatively low. He doesn't "get" things the way DD does... though he does seem to have done well enough for himself so far.

DS has been enrolled in one preschool or another for the last 3 years straight, including the last year at a half-day Montessori and 18 months before that in a full time regular daycare/preschool center.

Doing K then skipping to 2nd would mean doing K work, which I fear would be very boring. And he's not as academically motivated as DD. I worry that he won't see any reason to actually work hard enough to seem like a good skip candidate.

I have thought about asking about a mid-year skip but it seems like that would be socially disruptive and I'd like to avoid social disruption. On the other hand, doing half a year of K would have the advantage of doing half-days for the first half of the year instead of full days.

I've thought about asking if he could try entering right now, mid-year, as a Kindergartener. There are certainly some skills that aren't covered very well in Montessori, like writing. But 6 more months of maturity wouldn't hurt his cause any plus our district actually has some still requirements for early K entrance (but not so much for early 1st entrance).

Looking at his profile and judging by his pattern and ranges of scores I would say no. His verbal skills are average and similarities, which is the task heaviest on verbal reasoning, is not super strong. His scores indicate that he will probably have strong math skills if the pattern remains the same. Kindergarten thought 2nd grade are so verbally slanted. I might do kindergarten, see how it goes and consider a first grade skip if it seems necessary.

While there may be something to be said for challenging new material to capture his attention, if he has ADHD he may need more than challenging new material... he may need or benefit from behavioral therapy and/or an IEP/504 with specific supports/accommodations/interventions.

You may have read this elsewhere on the forums... when considering acceleration, the Iowa Acceleration Scale (IAS) is a helpful tool.

The Fin, Fur, and Feather Bureau of Investigation, funded by the U.S. Department of Education may be of interest to work on at home.

I wouldn't place too much weight on the cog scores, due to the inconsistencies, and the behaviors your examiner reported, but then the achievement scores do tend to (loosely) back up the cognitive profile. His early reading skills are only in the top of the Average range (+0.7 SD), and his written skills are quite average, but his math skills are strong. I would give sallymom's cautions some consideration.

Sally, you may have missed the note below the scores that the Similarities score in particular was "suppressed" by his giving overly complex answers that didn't fit the scoring manual. Some specific examples were included in the report but I'm not sure they should be posted here as they mention some of the test content, but needless to say, nothing on the WPPSI is looking for answers such as "proteins and fats" or "hydrogen".

His verbal scores were noted to be lower than his likely ability because when asked to list whatever it was he was supposed to list in 60 seconds, he listed like 5 things, said "And that's it", and then had like 55 seconds to spare. The reviewer also noted that "he answered incorrectly on purpose during the Early Reading Skills subtest." His phonological processing scores on the NEPSY-II were at 75%.

This is kind of the part where I'm finding this whole testing business vastly unhelpful because it seems like every single thing on the test has a caveat attached. I sort of want to go back in time and have a do-over or a test that isn't 2 hours long.

Hi, Aufilia--

I'd say to go and observe in the kindergarten and first grade if you can. K curriculum is so different from place to place. I think if you're there for an hour or two, you'll be able to decide where you can imagine your child being. Keep your eyes open for outliers and squirmy kids, and see how they are treated in these environments. Watch what academics they're doing and whether anyone is getting differentiated work.

I'd take the ADHD very seriously and start the educational eval process through the school district. ADHD in early grades is very tough-- especially if the child is bored. Kids this age usually don't really have the maturity to "look like they're paying attention" if they're not interested in the work, and with ADHD (depending on type and individual presentation) it may be hard to focus *even if the child is interested in the material*. This may drive everyone, including the child and certainly the teacher and parent, crazy.

ADHD actually makes it more important to place the child in an environment where the academics are at the correct level. If this means subject accelerating a kindergartner into first grade math, I'd probably consider that.

squishys, unfortunately, really high VS (in isolation) is not highly valued in traditional school settings, which primarily value verbal ability and processing speed. In life, it can be very useful. (Parallel parking, for instance!)

High VS does tend to track some aspects of math ability, and many hands-on abilities (e.g., vocational-technical schools tend to be enriched for high VS). Aufilia's dc is also strong in FR, which suggests math should be the area of strength. That will be appreciated less in the primary years, when schools are focused on literacy, and more in the higher grades.

Aufilia, did your examiner give you a Nonverbal Index? That leaves out the verbal subtests, and might come out a little higher. (Though with the other scatter-y and possibly low-estimate subtests, it equally may not.)

ETA: actually, I just looked over the list of specific subtests in the NVI, and it includes BD, MR, PC, PM, and BS, which leaves out all of the lowest subtest scores.

While waiting for the official answer, I will throw in: makes conceptual math REALLY easy. DS can picture the problem in his head and see the solution. Alas, there's not a whole lot of conceptual math in elementary school. And it makes "show your work" that much harder. However, the benefit of extreme VS is really clear to me when we do AoPS (I'm not VS at all, and he is way faster than me on any problem he can visualize).

In real life, the equally extreme VS adults around him can do stuff like run models in their heads, manipulate variables until the lines come out where they want them, and then inform clients, "you ought to do x". They easily see patterns and discrepancies in data. 3D design is as easy as breathing. Protein folding is a piece of cake.

I sometimes wonder if the extreme VS streak amongst these family members may be related to the significant writing challenges they also share, a la Silverman: trouble changing visual all-at-once-thoughts into a linear sequence of words. Don't know how this could be tested, though - Silverman's a bit skimpy on that part!

ETA: I agree with aeh. In our experience, VS has a lot of use in higher level studies and real life, but little value - and maybe even disadvantage - in lower levels of school.