Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Eval results - advice needed

My son's school has received and accepted the private eval results, and are only doing those tests that the neuropsych/we have requested for. The school did state that they need to do their own evaluation, and only then offer services through an IEP (if he qualifies). Otherwise, they will just offer him a 504.

Our IEP meeting is soon coming up. I was wondering if it is possible that the school's eval results can be different from the neuropsych's eval results. For example, the school seems to think my DS has ADHD, while the neuropsych has indicated he has Aspergers and is gifted. The school also seems to think his social skills are fine, just that he's somewhat inconsistent with applying those skills (I have specifically asked for this service; the neuropsych's report also indicates the need for this service).

It looks very likely that the school may just offer him a 504. I am just not sure that this will be enough. My child's report cards (as far as academic grades are concerned) are pretty good, even though he is 2e, and this is brought up as an example that he does not need support. My belief (and my understanding from talking to my child) is that the report cards are good because he already knows all the material. Writing, by far, is his weakest area, but he seems to be doing his best (his writing ideas are good, handwriting/organization of those ideas need a lot of improvement), and his teacher thinks he is fine.

How do you navigate this -- the school thinks he's doing well academically, but lacks consistency in social skills. Yet, all they can offer is a 504. My child usually does really well with evaluators, unless he is ill or something. My question is: is a 504 enough ?

Advice, suggestions appreciated.

Yes, it is possible for the school to come to a different diagnostic conclusion. They are looking at him through the lens of the school environment, while the NP most likely saw him in isolation, often from a hospital perspective. Context can be very important to interpretation. This does not necessarily mean that either formulation is wholly incorrect.

What is the primary service you are seeking? Social skills? If so, yes, that can be provided through a 504 (though some schools don't realize that). Actually, it can be provided through general ed, through a Curriculum Accommodation plan, or without any kind of plan at all (and has been, in several schools I've worked in in the past), especially if it's in the form of a social skills group (best, for transfer and generalization).

Thanks, aeh. That helps, and I will bring this up when we meet with the school.

I am primarily looking at getting services for social skills, pragmatic speech (basically, consistent reciprocity of speech), and occupational therapy (for helping with visual motor integration). I am just not sure that all of this will be possible with a 504.

Mom2one, based on that list, I would want an IEP. Yes, some schools will provide services without the IEP, but most will not. The IEP is a much stronger tool if you want remediation (not just "access to education").

If you want to be specific about the kinds of needs you see, we can talk about how they might be addressed in the school setting.

If you need both speech and OT, then yes, you would be pursuing an IEP. Social skills training alone doesn't require an IEP, but the others would.

Is the school doing it's own OT and SLP evals?

You've received excellent advice above mom2one. I have just a few extra thoughts for you re advocating at school.

* While the school may come up with a different diagnosis or different perception of impact on academics and need for remediation/accommodations/support... chances are good that if you have meaningful test results (as in, your child didn't just zone out and not answer questions on something or he wasn't purposely being defiant during a test).. the testing that you've had done privately, combined with the testing the school does, combined with "data" in the form of classwork, homework, behavioral challenges etc all are consistently adding up to the same story - they are just possibly looking at different pieces of the full puzzle. So when you are advocating, the important thing is to know all you can about how your child is impacted in academics and social situations at school (and in homework), have a good idea of what services and supports you feel he needs, and understand the "data" you have (tests, classwork, evaluation reports etc) that demonstrate the need clearly.

* I don't know how your school district works, but in my school district there were two large potential "gotchas" when advocating for an IEP that it's important to be aware of (in the event they are happening in your school district). The first is an existing set of guidelines for qualifying. The decision to qualify a student for an IEP should be made by a team (should include teacher(s), parents, SPED staff rep, OT/SLP/etc as meaningfully needed), and the "guidelines" are simply meant to be guidelines... however those guidelines can also be presented to parents as absolutes. It's important to know what those guidelines are, whether or not your ds qualifies under those guidelines, and if he doesn't, know what data you have that you can use in place of them to show that he needs services.

* This may not be true in your school or district, but there are some schools/districts that will try purposefully to not qualify a student for an IEP - the reason can be anything from not budget issues, staffing challenges, to not wanting to deal with it. If you find yourself in that situation, don't let comments thrown at you to deter you to... deter you. Stay calm, press forward, repeat repeat repeat what your child needs, what data demonstrates the needs, follow the process, and ignore the noise.

* When you hear comments such as "he's got good grades" or "he's got good test scores" - thrown out to imply that therefore he doesn't need any services - stick to presenting the data that shows that he *does* need services. It helps to have a perspective of what each type of data shows too. For example, my ds could not, for the life of him, write in response to an open-ended prompt when he was in elementary school, yet he scored "advanced proficiency" on state testing in writing. The gotcha was the state test didn't include any questions that called on that skill. Grades typically include averages of many different types of skills, so having good grades doesn't necessarily indicate that there isn't a significant challenge with one specific skill.

* If you have a local (or state) group that provides advocacy advice (parent navigators) they can be an excellent resource to ask these types of questions. I relied on our state group quite a bit when I was advocating for (successfully) an IEP for my ds in elementary school. For all the great advice you can get online, nothing beats being able to talk to an advocate who has knowledge of your local school system - because they can often tell you exactly what words to use that will work, what has been proven to not work, and possibly give you advice on working with specific schools/school staff.

* Since your ds' school staff has considered ADHD to be the issue in the past, if you find they are still throwing that out as a diagnosis when you meet again, I'd suggest a few things to mention. First and foremost, if the school questions the private evaluation diagnosis, simply ask in return if the school is questioning the diagnosis of a locally respected, highly respected, board certified (whatever applies) professional. Second, let the school know that there are symptoms that are shared in common between ADHD and ASD, but how you approach accommodating/remediating/etc may be different based on understanding the actual diagnosis. Lastly, if the school is adamant that they see ADHD when your private professional sees ASD, you can choose to either try to work through a reasonable set of accommodations/services/etc regardless of diagnosis, or you can request an independent evaluation at the school district's expense. In reality, I suspect that the school won't argue with the private professional's report as long as you stand firm that you accept it and respect the professional who put it together. They may question it, but politely reject the questioning and move on.

* It's common practice for a school to do their own evaluation prior to agreeing to an IEP, so don't let the school insisting on this worry you or cause you to agree to a 504 without first requesting an IEP eligibility review. When you fill out the IEP eval request, be sure to request OT and SLP evals as part of the process, as well as the TOWL (Test of Written Language) or an equivalent test.

Gotta run - hope that makes sense!

polarbear

Thanks, everyone. I have been reading (and re-reading the responses).

The OT administered a movement test battery for children -2, but said that he is functional, even though he appears not to have done well. She actually states this "demonstrates sensory seeking behaviors that may inhibit his ability to access the curriculum". It goes onto state that he does not need OT.
This has me puzzled. Shouldn't the school be providing services, especially when the OT says something like this in the report ?

Regardless of who is testing him, he displays very poor handwriting, that is simply not getting better with more & more practice. He writes fat letters/numbers -- again, everyone references this, but says that services are not needed. I will question why, but I was wondering if this is normal (for them to see a problem, but decide it is not severe enough ?)

Do you know the name of the movement battery test? (Just curious).


Your school district most likely has a set guideline re how "low" a student needs to score on a set of specific tests or diagnostic measures to determine if they qualify for OT services (same goes for other types of services and remediation). It's really helpful to know what that guideline is - you can try to find out the information by either looking online for your school district's SPED policy handbook, or you could try calling and asking for it through your school district's central SPED administrative office, or you could ask a SPED staff rep at your school. If you can find a local parent advocate or disability assistance group they might also be able to get the info to you easily.


This was "normal" in our ds' elementary school - because the school didn't want to provide services for students who needed them. It's really important to keep focused on what your ds needs for *life* skills and be aware of what is a reasonable argument from your school vs a roadblock being put up by the school - and it's not always easy to tell the roadblock from reason. Two things helped us tremendously when our ds was in early elementary and early in the journey of understanding his 2nd e:

1) Complete and thorough testing. We weren't able to get this through our school district - you've actually gotten much more testing through your school district already than we were able to. The thing that I think was missing from your testing earlier this year was testing to determine if the low processing speed scores were due to fine motor vs visual processing issues. Has your ds had further testing? Were you able to get more details on his Beery test? (In an earlier post you had the average score but not the specific breakdown of fine motor vs visual integration scores). If the Beery shows a deficit in fine motor, there are additional tests that can help quantify whether or not your ds has fine-motor dysgraphia. If the Beery shows a visual processing issue, an eval by a developmental optometrist might be helpful. The key is - you know your ds has unusually large awkward handwriting. You know he had a large discrepancy in processing speed scores on the WISC (unless I've confused your ds with someone else's ds - and if I have, please just ignore me lol!). Those are both red flags for dysgraphia, whether or not anyone from the school is insisting everything is "fine".

Second thing that was enormously helpful to us - having that local parent advocate that I mentioned above (I think I mentioned it - if I didn't, ask :)). Our parent advocate was the person who was able to let us know - it was the school stalling on us when we were seeking an IEP, and ds' specific school had a history of not wanting to provide services. I could have read advice on online forums all day and night for years and never really had it sink in that our school was stonewalling us (even though other online folks were quick to point it out without having any local knowledge). Having that local resource with that type of information was incredibly helpful. Our parent advocate also gave us a lot of the terminology and assists with how to approach advocacy based on what we were facing from our specific school (and personalities at the school) which helped us advocate successfully. If there's any chance you have a similar resource near you, I'd look into it and ask these same questions there.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - another thought - re:


Be sure the OT who wrote the report is present at the team meeting. If he/she isn't going to be there, request that the meeting be rescheduled so he/she can attend. Ask the OT this question at the meeting. Don't ask "shouldn't the school be providing services" but turn it into something stated matter-of-factly such as "The report states that ds demonstrates sensory seeking behaviors that may inhibit his ability to access the curriculum. How specifically do you see the behaviors inhibiting his ability to access the curriculum?" Then use that answer to restate "DS is exhibiting ....(fill in the blank) behaviors. These behaviors impact him in the classroom by (fill in the blank). How will those behaviors be addressed such that ds is receiving full access to the curriculum?" (or something like that).

I found when advocating that if you just keep calmly restating factual information you'll get the school staff to agree to obvious things that they should legally be agreeing to. They can't argue something that they've found and reported, but they can definitely write up reports in such a way that as a parent you'd look at it and think, ok, he doesn't qualify.

Another thing that might come out of that - the OT might feel that he doesn't need an actual OT pull-out, but there might be sensory accommodations that would help. You can research accommodations yourself prior to the meeting, things such as sitting on a ball instead of a chair, squishy seat cushions (don't know the technical name), chew erasers, whatever might be a sensory tool/accommodation that might help your ds. To be honest, I'd find it a bit of shooting in the dark to try to figure those things out *without* the help of an OT. My older dd had a lot of what looked like sensory issues as a young child - which we later realized were due to severe vision issues... but fwiw she went through private sensory OT and a lot of what the OT worked on with us was how to accommodate her sensory challenges in the classroom, which meant (for her), listening therapy, headphones, squishy seat cushion, wearing a tight leo under her clothes. Things I *never* would have been able to figure out on my own that worked really well. DD's school also eventually set up a sensory "break" room (SPED OT's office) that students could go to when they needed a break and could swing/etc.

And I'm rambling now but just made the connection, fwiw, and it might be totally meaningless - dd had handwriting that looked very "dysgraphic" when she was in K-2nd grade. She also had low scores on symbol search and one other WISC subtest, and she had the appearance of having sensory seeking behaviors in a large enough way we were taking her to OT for it. In the end, it all turned out to be related to a visual challenge.

polarbear

Huge thank you, polarbear.

polarbear, I have scheduled a follow-up meeting with the OT. She will not be there in the initial meeting. I will follow your line of questioning.


Also, yes, on the parent advocate. I am thinking that we need help if we are unable to get anywhere in the initial meeting. It is more logistics, than anything else, that we are not able to get a parent advocate for the initial meeting. Sometimes I think it is okay, but certain other times, panic sets in.

Also, I don't know the name of the movement test, but I will find out.


No, you are right -- you haven't confused my DS with someone else's. I was looking over the reports again, and I find that the neuropsych, and OT's remarks match a lot. At some point,I will go back to the neuropsych and furnish the OT's test results (it was one of my things to do). I, unfortuanately, did not get any more information on the Beery test.

We have been dealing with an adversarial school system and i'm not sure that I have any meaningful advice since I haven't gotten very far. I think what you may need to do is push for actual "written expression" services rather than just OT. Schools see "OT" as a related service that cannot stand by itself. I don't know how things differ in different states, but here ADHD would be classified under the "Other Health Disability" category for an IEP, if the ADHD is causing impaired educational performance compared to peers. This is where things get sticky. To me, it's completely obvious that my ADHD/gifted child has impaired educational performance becasue of the disability. There is a lot of incomplete work, she is excessively slow meaning she misses other things (for instance she may be sent out of class to do a computerized math test for 5 days in a row when other kids do it in 45 min and then go on with school as usual). Her written expression is affected because her executive functioning ability is impaired and she can't organize her thoughts on the paper. However, all the school could talk about were her good grades and her great standardized test scores. Never mind the fact that a fourth grade teacher isn't going to put an "F" on a child's silly stories that aren't written to grade level. There would be literally no way for her to fail. I looked through the State evaluation manuals for the two categories they were assessing (SLD and OHD) and there is nothing in there stating that she needs to be failing to qualify for services but the bottom line is that the district is trying to cut special ed from their budget and they don't want to give services to a gifted kid like DD who does great on reading/math standardized tests. They completely ignored everything negative that was in the evaluation report, claiming that she has a 504 plan that meets her needs (it was written before she was even evaluated). Maybe there are some schools that implement 504 plans properly, but in her school it was a joke. Nothing really changed after it was signed.

If you have a private evaluation that states that he has asperger's sydrome, there should be a special education classification for that. Here there is one specifically for autism spectrum, I believe. One thing you could do is to contact an advocacy group or even call the State Dept. of Education and ask if they can tell you how to access the eligibility criteria for each category, and how the category needs to be assessed in an eval to determine eligibility.

Keep in mind that they have to consider the results of any private evaluation that you have gotten. If they do their own eval and find him ineligible for an IEP or certain services that you think he needs, you can request an independent educational eval at the expense of the school district. I just wrote a letter to the special education director stating that I disagreed with the school eval and that I want them to pay for an IEE. They only have 2 options: Pay for it and give you a list of stipulations (like cost, qualifications of the evaluator, etc), of take it to due process in front of a hearing officer and show that their eval was appropriate. School districts almost always grant an IEE from what I've been told. Then you would have a third opinion if you want one, and you wouldn't have to pay for it. The school HAS to consider the results and if they disagree with the eval you can take them to due process. You can also go to due process after a school eval (since you basically already have an independent eval) and let a hearing officer decide about eligibility based on what you already have. Our state offers mediation as well,as something less extreme than due process, meaning someone from the state actually mediates an IEP meeting so that parents/school can reach some sort of compromise, although I've heard this is kind of a joke here and they are biased in favor of the schools.
Before doing any of that, though, I would talk to whoever was in charge of your child's eval at the school and say you think he should be evaluated and that you believe he should have an IEP. If they evaluate, and then tell you he just needs a 504, and you don't agree or get anywhere, contact the special ed director and outline your concerns. If one concern is writing, print out a copy of the language arts standards and point out where he is not at grade level. Find copies of eligibility checklists from your State and evaluation manuals for each category. Just because a child has passing grades and good test scores doesn't mean they can't qualify for an IEP.

-quote=mom2one=The OT administered a movement test battery for children -2, but said that he is functional, even though he appears not to have done well.[/quote]

I just had one more thought on the OT report - our ds' OT scores/report also indicated he had functional motor skills (actually not too far below average) - but if dysgraphia is the issue, the challenge isn't simply that specific motor skills aren't functional, dysgraphia is an issue with the connection between the brain directing fine motor action and the inability to develop automaticity in tasks. I had forgotten about it until just now, but I was really surprised when we got our initial OT report for our ds because it read as if everything was ok (low average on some motor tests, above average on others), then stated that he was "an excellent candidate for handwriting OT." Our report came from a private OT eval done after we already had a diagnosis of Disorder of Written Expression from a neuropsychologist (who recommended the OT eval). When we talked again to both the OT and neuropsychologist, they explained that the report looking "good" didn't mean that ds didn't have dysgraphia, it meant that his motor function was high enough that he could go through a course of handwriting OT and would benefit from it. He did have 9 months of handwriting OT and he did see a lot of benefit - his posture when writing improved, his pencil grip was corrected, he no longer held his wrist when writing and the pain he'd had before when handwriting went away. His handwriting was also much more legible after the OT. OTOH, some of those gains were short-term. The correct posture and grip stuck, but legibility didn't stick as much - his handwriting never did regress to the point it was at prior to OT, but it also never *progressed* - so he has handwriting (when he writes slowly and carefully) that today looks like the legible handwriting of a second grader (which is what it looked like after OT). When he does use handwriting he doesn't write slow, because he's only using it on short-answer questions during school and he doesn't have time to go slow and make it look neat - and it comes out relatively illegible, sometimes so messy he can't even read it. (Note - he doesn't actually use handwriting very often either, just here and there at school for short-answer questions or to make a short note.)


I'm sorry I get confused about which type of meeting is happening - is this considered an IEP eligibility meeting where the team decides whether or not to conduct an eligibility evaluation, or is this the follow-up meeting that takes place after the eligibility process where the team decides if your ds qualifies for an IEP? If it's the follow-up meeting, and you feel it's important to have the OT there, you can postpone the meeting until he/she is available (same goes for other team members). There is a requirement that the meeting take place within a certain time period, but you can waive that deadline if you need to in order to schedule a meeting where all interested parties are able to attend. You could also request it be delayed until you've had a chance to have a follow-up meeting with the OT - although I don't think you need to. But... my suggestion might change depending on which type of meeting it is.


That's great that you have a local resource for a parent advocate. Even though the advocate can't get to this first meeting, you can ask for advice that you can use in the meeting. This is what we did throughout our IEP process - our advocate wasn't able to attend the meetings, but her advice on what to ask for, how to ask it, etc was invaluable.


One other thing I remembered after answering previously - re your initial question asking if the school's eval results could be different from the neuropsychs - when our ds was diagnosed by the neurospych he wasn't given a "dysgraphia" diagnosis, but instead had a diagnosis of "Disorder of Written Coordination" (or something like that - a diagnosis from the DSM). He also had a diagnosis of Developmental Coordination Disorder. The neuropsych follow-up meeting was the first time we'd ever heard the word "disability" used with respect to our ds and also the first time we'd been told he wouldn't be able to use handwriting functionally... so we were a little shell-shocked. I went home, started googling away, and found all sorts of references to dysgraphia. I had so many questions after the first follow-up meeting that I had to schedule a second follow-up meeting with the neuropsych - and one of the questions I had was "Is this dysgraphia?". The neurospych said yes, but she doesn't refer to it as dysgraphia because the schools don't refer to it as dysgraphia. What was most important in her report from the school's perspective were the words outlining the impact of his inability to use handwriting and what accommodations he would need. DS' qualified for IEP services under "Specific Learning Disability - Written Expression". So sometimes it's not that the diagnosis is different, it's a matter of how it's referenced by different people.

polarbear

One other thought to add to blackat's - you might also run into teachers or SPED staff etc who don't believe it's possible to be both intellectually gifted and also have a disability. We ran into a few staff who had some very outdated and biased views re what SPED really is and about kids who need SPED services.

polarbear

We had one teacher state that DD would be better off getting interventions in the classroom for writing because those classroom teachers are the literacy experts, blah blah, and that special ed is more for behaviorally challenged students, not kids like DD. Ummm, if classroom interventions were going to be tried on DD it would have been nice if they had been done, say, three years ago? The classroom teachers have no clue what her issue is. They probably don't even know what "dysgraphia" or "executive functioning" are. They also don't have time to work with her for more than 1 minute, and unless they plan on pulling her into the hallway every time she needs to write and giving her a pep talk, because she's crying and refusing to write, and come up with a plan with her about what she's going to write about, their regular ed "interventions" are not going to be of much use. So yeah, this is the kind of nonsense people have been trying to dish out to me left and right, trying to convince me that an IEP is a bad idea and I should just let it go. They insist DD can do just fine without any special services, meanwhile no one does anything at all. They couldn't even bother themselves to initial her planner.

I wanted to provide an update.


Polarbear, yes, we are having this happen now. I don't think they think it is possible to be both, even though I provided various articles for them to read. I don't even know if they are reading it.


This is the follow-up meeting that takes place after the eligibility process where the team decides if he qualifies for an IEP.

The OT (and we did finally meet with her) did say she noticed some handwriting issues, and has suggested various accommodations. However, as far as the IEP is concerned, it looks like they will not give it to him. They did agree to a 504, but, sometimes I think the enforcement of a 504 will depend on the teacher he has. It is frustrating. We are having another meeting next week. My child continues to do well on tests etc, but does not always follow the rules in the classroom (by that, I mean, the teacher thinks he is challenging her anytime he tries to explain his point of view. Rather unfortunate). I have been following the other thread 'today's problem' very closely for ideas for my own child.

I will probably post all the accomodations we are asking for tomorrow.

Just completely frustrated with their inability to give an IEP, based on his functional behavior in the classroom (never mind tests etc). And, they seem convinced he has ADHD, and questioned the final diagnosis that the neuropsych has arrived at(the neuropsych has a wonderful reputation, and I believe that the tests she did was very thorough).

I'm in no position to advise anyone, since am even earlier in the whole process than you are, but wanted to offer support and a slew of random thoughts, in no particular order:

We just got a new pediatrician *today* because I'm aiming for some sort of coordination of treatment. Up until now, I've been a relatively low utilizer of resources (hardly even take kids to doctor!) bc they simply didn't seem warranted (epic fail). He is going to manage ADHD med and said he will refer for OT eval if ASD is diagnosed. I asked him about Speech/Language eval and he said unless there is a hearing loss, going through medical channel is probably not useful. I don't know if private OT works on handwriting issues. My son has two distinct sets of handwriting: his "real" writing--big, messy and his "medicated" writing--tiny, perfect, precise...sloooooooow. He loves to draw tiny things and I suspect he draws his good handwriting. His school OT observation noted he had good handwriting skills, no fine-motor deficit (except for "shaking hands." ugh) My point to this long-winded ramble is that maybe you can get private services if the school won't budge, via MD referral.

Another thought: what is the end game? Mine is to understand better and keep son in current placement (I think) because I don't see him faring any better an a different school--and he can be removed from this program if grades aren't good.

My friend with the two (very very very) 2E sons (both PG and LD, but different diagnoses completely) told me she actually *prefers* 504 because it provides accommodations, while IEP doesn't. She, however, has a lot more personal resources at her disposal than I and can afford to pay for whatever services her children need.

If I could craft the perfect 504 for my son, it would be pretty straightforward, typical ADHD/EF type stuff: preferential seating, cueing, communication with teachers, extra time to turn in assignments, use of technology to aid in organization...most of which is already in 504.

I'd also add a few things like: don't be a jerk to my child, remember he isn't purposefully annoying you, don't apply academic consequences to behavioral issues, don't yell at him, don't be sarcastic...but I'm pretty sure they won't allow these (but they should, because evidently these aren't obvious).

I'm looking forward to seeing what you request via 504. I get the feeling our districts approach these things similarly. The bottom line, I was told, is that any services only have to get DS to baseline (functional) and he's already there. Supposedly. I am glad I have a boatload of nasty emails this year so I can prove his behaviors are having negative impact on education. Do you have anything like that?

Just so you know for yourself, this is incorrect. An IEP can and usually does include accommodations as well as specialized instruction.

"No academic consequences for behavioral issues" sounds like a perfectly appropriate accommodation to put in a 504 to me, although you might have better luck treating it like spelling for a dysgraphic kid - "No reducing grades for behavior unless the assignment/assessment is specifically intended to teach/assess behavior." And it may not change teacher behavior, but I don't see anything wrong with saying "DS does not respond well to raised voices" and "DS does not understand sarcasm," either.

I'm glad to know that isn't correct, since it doesn't make any sense. Actually, come to think of it, my SPED teacher friend said the same thing! I'm beginning to think our district miscommunicates. A lot.

And I'm saving that line "No reducing grades for behavior unless the assignment/assessment is specifically intended to teach/assess behavior."

YES!

We have in the past used a Behavior Intervention Plan to specify how teachers should respond to what they viewed as problem behaviors. That form literally allows you to describe problem situations and specify the correct response to those situations-- what may or may not be done.

It doesn't solve all the problems, but it is useful for everyone to agree on the boundaries and strategies far in advance of the inevitable incidents.

This is my list I plan to ask for:

Social skills classes: be a part of the pull-out for social skills. Allow for a limited number of sessions with the school psychologist. (I don't know they will give this)

Behavior form : Details such as whether work got completed, whether a warning or timeout was given, with reasons. Should come home daily.

Short conference with the student at end of day: Go over the behavior form, emphasize expectations on a daily basis.

Organization: Allow him to have bins that have all the necessary things he uses. Label these bins (for example, worksheets , books etc).

Organization techniques: Short conference with the student twice every week (Wednesday & Friday) to make sure that he has all the things he needs, and that he is not shoving papers into the desk, and that everything is accounted for.

Provide a list of things he must have and have him mark it off.
This should happen every week (on Friday), so he is ready when Monday begins.

Pack-up checklist: Print out the packup checklist every day, and have him mark it off, so he has all the things he should have.

Distraction: If he is not attending to work for more than 4 minutes, remind him once to start the work. Work initiation is, perhaps, one of the hardest things for him when there is a lot of visual stimuli. Give him one more minute, after the reminder, and then help him get started on the work in a more hands-on manner.

Once he starts, he usually finishes by using his techniques for moving on.

Sometimes, he may miss specific instructions. Allow him to ask the teacher. He seems to not clearly understand instructions if he is just asked to ask his classmates.

Be very specific and literal, and ask him if he has checked in while giving instructions.

Placement of written work on paper: Mark with a green dot the place where he is expected to start writing.
Provide paper or space that is of the right size for him to write on. Example: journal paper, so he is forced to keep the handwriting reasonably sized.

Provide a slant board for all writing tasks.

Provide a quiet place for him to work, with little to no visual distractions.

Break longer assignments (such as a packet of work that has more than 3 pages) into manageable chunks.

Pair written instructions with oral instructions.

Provide challenge words for spelling tests.

Provide challenge work for math. Even if this cannot be done daily, provide it to him every once in 2 days. This can be as simple as getting a Grade 4 or Grade 5 worksheet and having him work on the problems.

Provide silent reading time for close to 30 minutes.

Limit homework to 45 minutes every night. Allow him to turn in typed work.

Allow him to complete the mandatory online reading program on the weekends.

Provide graph paper for math, especially for carry-over problems.

Provide reassurances and encouragement vs. correction and criticism at a rate of 4:1

Provide direct instruction during handwriting practice. Review sizing of the letters when he is doing the work.

Tolerate inconsistent performance.

Make time to talk alone with him.

Provide theraband for the legs of the chair. Or, provide a chair where he can sit comfortably with feet touching the ground.

What do you all think ? Feedback appreciated.

I'm going to give feedback (even though I am really not qualified) based on having been both a classroom teacher and dealing with 504 issues this year.

To be workable, the 504 accommodations should be ones that a teacher (not para) could be reasonably expected to follow while teaching the entire class.

I think your best bet, if you want to ensure the 504 is implemented consistently, and that you can track it--would be to remove the accommodations that are more vague or TOO specific and about "classroom culture" and leave the ones that can be directly measured.

e.g. "Provide reassurances and encouragement vs. correction and criticism at a rate of 4:1" I really like this one but it would be difficult for anyone to track it. I'm brainstorming here, but maybe there is a way to state it differently. Would there be a way to ask for redirection to be couched in a positive framework? Truly, I have no idea what that looks like on (504) paper. I don't know if you are allowed to provide examples. "I notice you are having trouble switching gears. I need your eyes here and your pencil here."

How old is your child? There a couple other things I notice in this that I would want to address, and that also take some pressure off the classroom teacher. I would ask for X number of days (to include a weekend, if possible) to complete unfinished assignments, including homework. To me, 45 minutes is too much homework for a young child, especially one who has spent considerable energy keeping himself glued together all day in school.

Also: I would not ask for daily behavioral report (but that is just me) but weekly. I am saying this not as a parent or teacher but as a counselor who has witnessed the anxiety these sorts of interventions produce in children. In a perfect world, a teacher would/could provide immediate feedback to a child but that is not how it plays out, and kids end up internalizing they are just "bad kids" or "bad students" without ever understanding exactly what it is they are failing to do. It's been *way* more effective for me to receive a weekly report and then translate for my son. YMMV

I could say a lot more, here, but will leave it to more seasoned parents to comment.

Thanks, eco,for the feedback.
I changed the "Provide reassurances and encouragement vs. correction and criticism at a rate of 4:1", even though this is really what he needs.

My child is almost 8, in 2nd grade. I am anticipating homework to be 45 minutes in third grade. Right now, we get it done in about an hour, sometimes less (for the entire week's worth of work).


I am not sure which is better. I thought having a daily report is helpful. However, I see this, ' ...without ever understanding exactly what it is they are failing to do. It's been *way* more effective for me to receive a weekly report and then translate for my son.' and it gives me pause.

I am probably asking for a lot, but I have been told that we are given very little, when the meeting transpires, as far as accommodations go. In a weird way, this makes me ask for even more, just to see how much will actually be given.

I am hoping others can provide feedback as well. I don't know what I would do without this board (I try and lurk as much as I can, during the workday).

It might make sense to ask for a lot, going in, so there is room for discussion and compromise. I had a negative experience at last 504 where it seemed the agenda was to remove what were very simple accommodations--so you might have a point.

I also think that it is nice to have a daily report, if it's done in the right spirit of helping the child. When we tried this, at age 8, it seemed like it was used as a vehicle for the teacher to get in all of her jabs and complaints--and it was also very public. I hope your son's teacher is more discrete and helpful.

What I'm doing, currently, is trying to learn more about pragmatic language and being much more concrete and direct with my son re: school and the teacher's attitudes and perceptions. (That has nothing to do with your 504, but just something I wish I'd known a LONG time ago.) I've mostly avoided telling my son things having to do with the teachers' commentary, because so much of it was negative and unhelpful. I'm learning how to translate for my son and wish I'd known about "social communication" issues a long time ago. He is 12--we missed a lot of opportunities.

If homework isn't causing a lot of stress and upset for your DS (and family), then no big deal. It's very overwhelming to have a child who struggles at school and then to have to continue that dynamic at home every night.

When is the meeting?

P.S. Yes, I know and understand. I hope there is a teacher for 3rd grade who is warm and accepting. We had fantastic teachers in elementary (except for 2nd grade) and it made all the difference in the world. Middle school has been a whole different ball of wax.

Thanks, eco.


This is what I am hoping to do as well. I really worry a lot about this aspect. Right now, I think he is internalizing himself as a child who cannot satisfy his teacher no matter what. He is awesome at other places (his after-care, his after school enrichment activities) that it worries me sometimes.

[quote[
If homework isn't causing a lot of stress and upset for your DS (and family), then no big deal. It's very overwhelming to have a child who struggles at school and then to have to continue that dynamic at home every night. [/quote]

Homework is mostly okay. I am always around the kitchen table where he does his homework. I think my presence, for some reason, enables him to focus and get it done in a reasonable amount of time.

However, I hear horror stories about the volume and time expectations of homework in third grade (homework given on wednesday, due the next day. Apparently, this is the case pretty much through the week). I think the charm of homework will wear off pretty quickly, with my kid. So, perhaps, I should ask for extended homework time.

Thank you again. Very helpful.

I would suggest that you group and prioritize the accommodations and services that you think will be most helpful to him, so that you have some negotiation room, and so that you know exactly where you can compromise.

I would also agree that it is important for the team to design and present the accommodations in such a way that they are not overwhelming for the classroom teacher, who must implement them. Just as I advise teachers to give their students no more than six fundamental classroom rules, with more finely-spelled out examples grouped under them, I would be cautious about giving teachers more than about a half dozen major categories of accommodations. Practically speaking, it is highly unlikely that the teacher will be able to remember any more than that. This is also why I suggested grouping and organizing them into categories.

For example, accommodations for:
1. written output/handwriting (including extended time, reduced written requirements, items sufficient only to show mastery, supplementary oral assessment)
2. executive functions/study skills (including supports for attention, initiation, organization, like cues to establish a listening set, priming the pump/oral pre-writing activities, breaking lengthy or complex assignments into intermediate benchmarks)
3. emotional/behavioral regulation (including frequent, specific, and authentic praise and encouragement, positive reinforcement for successive approximations of desired behavior (shaping), explicit modeling of prosocial behaviors, cueing for taught strategies)

You can still list the specific accommodations under the groups, but they should be easier to grasp and execute in a concerted fashion, if they are clustered.

This is great info. aeh--are there any written resources of which you are aware that explain these interventions (particularly the emotional/behavioral) in layman's terms?

These sound like good strategies for functional behavior at home, too.

mom--I hope you have a good experience with your 504 meeting. Is it soon? I will be watching like a hawk. It sounds like our sons have similar characteristics.

This may sound like I'm circling back and revisiting something, but reading the latest responses about accommodations has me wondering about something in your OP:


His teacher may think he's "fine" because he's in a class with a wide range of typically developing kids, not all HG/+ kids (I think... I can't remember if he's in a gifted program?).

These are a few things I'd wonder about:

Did the IEP eligibility eval include the TOWL (Test of Written Language)? If not, do you feel that the issues with organization/written expression were addressed in the 504? (I'm doubtful about this)

Did your neuropsych report have any notes addressing handwriting? Was the difference in processing speed thought to be due to visual-motor challenge or fine motor - chances are the neuropsych included some additional tests to tease that out. This can make a difference in how you go about making handwriting accommodations. For instance, if your ds has a fine motor challenge (which won't necessarily show up on an OT eval as strictly that - his fine motor muscle ability may be *a-ok*, but his brain may not be able to manipulate fine motor actions in things like handwriting)... it's possible he needs to use keyboarding as an accommodation, not an accommodation such as a certain type of paper or a specific type of pencil grip etc.

Did our school OT test the rate your ds writes at (not when he's having to think up what to write, but just straight handwriting where he knows what he's supposed to write)? If it's extremely slow relative to peers, I'd request that he start keyboarding work that requires writing (other than specific handwriting instruction).

When is your 504 meeting?

And are you convinced that a 504 is "enough"? Have you considered appealing the IEP eligibility decision?

Hope your meeting goes well!

polarbear

We had our meeting earlier this week. This is what we got
- Consultation with the school psych on an as-needed basis.
- Access to fidgets (velcro under his desk, theraband on the legs of his chair etc)
- Access to visual structure in areas of struggle (checklists, organizers, lined paper etc)
- Reduced workload (both for assignments and homework). Focus shd be on quality not quantity.
- Extended time on tests, quizzes, assignments etc. Not unlimited extended time.
- break multi-step directions or multiple page worksheets into individual steps and not more than 2 pages at a time
- Preferential seating. Should have the ability to stand at his desk and work.
- Time-limited structured breaks as needed
- Bins for materials, pens, papers, books etc

Writing was discussed. Apparently he does very well writing if he sees that it matters. Else he just does not write as much.
I am still thinking about this aspect.

I would pay *really* close attention to the writing assignments and how well he does on them. It's possible he does well if he "sees that it matters" but that's also an easy place to put a reason without analyzing the issue. It's easy to fall into thinking not trying or not being motivated is the issue when what's up when really is something else entirely, such as he tires on long assignments, is overwhelmed by having to organize a paragraph, he doesn't understand how to summarize, etc. It's easy to say it's lack of motivation, because how exactly do you define what "lack of motivation" looks like? How do you define the product? Realistically, a lot of the output and outward appearance of kids who have genuine academic struggles and LDs can *look* like they are not trying or only produce good work when they are motivated or think it matters. Inconsistency is a hallmark of having an LD.

OK, off my soapbox

Otherwise it sounds like the meeting went well! Thanks for the update!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I would agree with pb. "Sees that it matters" can mean a lot of different things. This is also one of the functions of oral pre-writing activities: that's when students grapple with the relevance of the writing assignment, not only on a motivational level, but also in terms of truly understanding the prompt--which is a skill in itself.

Those look like good, practical accommodations. Were they resistant to the "encouragement vs. criticism" language?

I'd also be interested in teasing out the "sees that it matters" piece. I don't know much (anything) about written expression issues but I know my son can also write well in some cases and not others. In his case, anyhow, it seems like it's more an issue of A) his current physiological state and B) whether or not he understands what he is supposed to be doing (i.e. requirements are clear and stated concretely).

How do you feel about the plan? Did the school folk seem positive/responsive to your concerns? Are you satisfied, uneasy, or both? (I don't mean to interrogate you! Kind of collecting data since will be doing this sort of thing--again--sometimes soon.)

I would add to the extended time ----with no penalty to grade.... It might sound like a no brainer but it needs to be put down that the student is exempt from penalizing. Some teachers don't get that.

Polarbear, yes, this was (and is) my concern as well. Apparently, an assignment was given in class, and my child wrote all of 2 sentences in nearly 2 hours. I asked him about it later on at home, and he said that he blanked out on what to write.
I think assignments where he has to relate or recollect something and produce written output is a challenge. I do not have tests to back up my statement, however. I just think so, from what I have seen. Also, FWIW, the school administered the WJ III test for writing (I forget what they are called), and he scored exceptionally well (it was one on one testing, and he typically tends to do well in it. However, I think, for some reason, he is not able to translate it to back-in-the-classroom for some assignments).

I am wondering what to do about this. I will try and post up his scores on the WJ III test a bit later on.I have still not signed off on the 504; I am debating about the writing thing.


Some writing assignments he simply does not seem to care about. I haven't seen this at home, but, at home, I don't have him write on topics I choose. He's free to write about anything. Some days he writes a lot, some days very little.

I also wonder if he understands what he is expected to do when a writing prompt is given.


Despite or inspite of all these challenges, I have a somewhat okay-ish relationship with the school psych as well as the teacher. The teacher was very hard to deal with in the meeting (though I think she has his best interests at heart), but the administration was okay, and seemed very eager to help. I am upset about this writing thing though.

I'd make a note of this. Ask your ds or the teacher what the assignment was too, and make a note of it. It might seem meaningless re what happened at this point in time, but over time collecting this type of info will help you understand what is challenging about writing assignments for your ds.

I'd also ask the teacher if your ds received any assistance or check-ins from the teacher or a classroom aide. Sitting and producing not-much-at-all for 2 hours while other classmates are writing can be extremely frustrating for a child. The whole point of going to school is to learn... so if a child is sitting and not working, someone should check in and offer help or support.


Which might be a sign of a challenge, or might be a sign of a student who needs someone to just step in and help him with a few quick brainstorming tips. Since it's happening repeatedly (I think), I'd suspect there's more to it than just needing a few brainstorming tips.


Since you have a suspicion of what the problem might be, you could do some informal "testing" of your own at home by giving him different types of writing prompts, and keeping the output as evidence of what type of writing assignment is more of a challenge for him and which types are easier.


The WJ-III writing subtests are very simple tasks that look at one skill at a time in isolation. It's quite possible that your ds has the skills he needs to do well on the WJ-III subtests and still has some type of challenge that is preventing him from completing written expression tasks. A widely-used and more comprehensive test for written expression tasks is the TOWL (Test of Written Language). This test requires students to actually write a paragraph (or more), and is often used by schools when testing for a suspected LD in written expression.


Since you haven't signed off on the 504, I would consider requesting further testing on writing. If you're wondering about the specific WJ-III writing subtests, you should be able to find descriptions of each subtest online.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - how old is your ds, and what grade is he in?

One thing I thought of is that you might ask him if he ever has trouble knowing what to say or what words to use when he's talking. You might also give him a "writing assignment" that is similar to something he's struggled with at school and ask him to reply verbally rather than writing it down. If your ds has a challenge with written expression that's related to expressive language, he might also have a similar challenge when speaking. My ds has both, but when he was in early elementary the verbal challenge wasn't obvious at all - he seemed very advanced in his verbal output. When he was around 4th grade though, he started telling us that he didn't know what to say and it became more obvious that whatever was challenging for him with writing assignments was also impacting his verbal expression too. That won't always be the case, but it's something to watch for.

I was also curious re how old he is because... 2 hours seems like a long time to sit and write no matter how easy it is for a child!

Best wishes,

polarbear

ditto pb. Your description sounds like he has trouble with idea generation, initiation, possibly organization and theme development. The WJIII does not assess any of these skills. These are actually more closely related to executive functions. Sometimes that may manifest as inconsistencies in written expression/output. A topic for which he has high interest and/or background knowledge may lower the threshold for the above EF-laden writing tasks.

Thanks, everyone. We finally have a 504 in place.


He definitely has issues with initiation. However, once he begins, he writes a fair bit. Sometimes, though, it seems like he is "stuck". The school is not really helping with writing (and it is only 2-3 weeks till the end of school). I am wondering what resources/writing programs/afterschool classes helps with this.


Polarbear, we finally did sign off on the 504. They showed us his WJ writing samples. Compared to his in-class work, it was very good.

Some of the staff in the school administration seem very helpful. We are going to assess his writing at the beginning of next year (in 3rd grade). Meanwhile, over the summer, I was wondering how to remediate this (where to start etc).

Also, I am not quite sure how much (in terms of length) a third grader should be writing. He is currently writing 10-12 sentences atleast on any topic (it sort of seems excessive to me in 2nd grade, but maybe it is the norm ?). Also, I keep wondering -- shouldn't content matter more than the length ? He's inconsistent with content, but that is more my focus than the length (which seems to be his teacher's focus).

mom2one - I'm in a hurry so not much time to post, but fwiw - here content started mattering in 4th grade. 2nd/3rd grade writing was all about getting ideas out. OTOH, even in first grade, the teachers were having the students focus content on a single subject per writing exercise, and they also had kids proofreading for things like neatness and catching punctuation/capitalization etc errors - they limited it to something small like one or two per assignment when the children were really little, but they did include that as part of what was important to be thinking of while writing. I'd try to find your state/school district curriculum guidelines to see what is expected in your area (you should be able to find the curriculum expectations by grade online).

If idea generation and initiation is a challenge, I have a few suggestions I could share via pm that our SLP used with our ds. Our ds' writing remediation (that made any difference - for him) came through speech therapy, and his first year or so of speech therapy was all about idea generation / initiation. They are things that aren't "writing" specific - a lot of it is verbal, but helps get thoughts moving "out"

If his writing is going to be assessed at the beginning of the next school year, I'd request the TOWL. This may also sound odd, but I'd pay attention to his verbal communications. When our ds was your ds' age, we thought writing was the issue - but it wasn't the *full* issue - the issue was related to expression (both verbal and written). Our ds was extremely verbal when he was young - never stopped talking or asking questions, and his vocabulary was very advanced, so we never suspected he was having any difficulty with verbal communications until he was in 4th grade, and he started telling us when he just couldn't get a thought together or get it to come out in words.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Hi Polarbear

I'd be interested in the idea initiation and generation activities as well. DS is in grade 1, and writing tasks are not too onerous, but he has a hard time thinking of what to write. He had to do a 'book report' earlier this year, which only involved describing what the book was about - I had to prompt him for each chapter to come up with a sentence describing what happened. I was scribing for him (typing into the computer) so it wasn't a mechanical issue.

DS is also very verbal with an advanced vocabulary and great spelling skills - so this is something I hadn't expected. But during the recent vision testing (see other thread) one of the activities was to simply read out 2 columns of numbers - he was quite a bit below average in terms of speed (100% accuracy though). The optometrist said this was maybe a processing speed issue?

Polarbear, yes, I am definitely interested. Thank you so much. I am really glad this board exists

Polarbear, may I jump on the bandwagon and request a cc too? Much appreciated!

Put me on, too, Polar. Thanks.

OK - phew! It took forever (not writing the pm, but figuring out that the reason I couldn't post it was that I'd forgotten to fill in a subject!).

I sent a group pm to mom2one, Can2K, MichelleC and DeeDee. I will gladly add anyone else who is interested, I just didn't want to post the details in a public searchable forum.

pb

Could you add me too, please? Thanks!

Polarbear, could you please add me in, as well? Thanks so much!