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    My son's birthday is in June, he will be 5. Our plan is to enroll him in kindergarten in the fall. The age cut off is September 1st. We know academically he is really at a first grade level, but socially he is very much behind kindergarten. In Texas, you have the option of holding back summer babies and enrolling them next year, 2016.
    My concern is he would be into a second grade level academically upon entering kinder, though socially on check. Would it be better to enroll now, and work on is social problems? Or, wait another year and deal with the academic issues?


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    Is it all-day kindergarten? Half-day would be ideal because you could work on social part-time.

    I would NOT suggest waiting. Having them in young when they are bright is like getting a "free skip." I have two DYS that are naturally young for grade and I did not realize at the time just how lucky we were. DYS DS6 is having a very tough time in 1st grade because everything is so easy. If we had held back, it would be even worse.


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    My son has an early June birthday - he started in the fall. Thankfully he didn't mind "easy" work, and had always been happy to go with the flow - but if he had been held back a year, it would have driven even him crazy. We chose not to skip - partly because of his age, but also because he was (and still is) the smallest kid in his grade. The school were great - accelerated him a year in math from 1st grade and up. He is now 11, in 6th grade, Middle School, on the Honor roll in the full time gifted program. I just cannot imagine him still being in 5th grade at this stage. If you held him back, could yu put him straight into 1st grade the following year, if you thought he was ready ?

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    It's pretty commonly reported around here that a poor academic fit tends to make social problems worse. An engaged and busy kid is in a much better position to interact positively with their class than a bored and frustrated one who is looking for something to do!

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    Thanks everyone.
    Yes, the kindergarten is all day. We talked to the counselor. They won't do 1/2 day, pull out program, or in class acceleration. Great huh? 1/2 day would be ideal, yes. I would love it.

    There is a loop hole where we could say he is being home schooled for kinder and then enroll him into 1st grade. Yes, that is an option. I also agree that he would be incredibly bored if we held him back. Right now, the classes he is in, he is already the class clown and gets in trouble. Because he is bored. He also has lots of trouble with impulse control, but he is 4. He spaces out because he is thinking about other things, thus is biggest problem is focusing.

    Last edited by amielynn38; 03/12/15 06:47 AM.
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    Are there any private schools that do half-day nearby that would give you that half-day option? Then you could enroll full-day in 1st?


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    I wouldn't hold him back unless you had some very specific social concerns, because among the gifted cohort, what often appears as social issues ends up being identified as a mismatch where the gifted child is more socially advanced than his age peers. Holding him back and making him the oldest child in the room would make this problem worse.

    This is coming from a Dude who may have been registered early for kinder (by one day!) and comes from a long line of late-developing males (I was often the shortest boy in class until a big growth spurt beginning at 15). I often had friends 2-5 years older, and almost none younger.

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    Also: working on social skills is supposed to be the main point of kindergarten.

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    It sounds like his current situation is not good either? I don't see that signing him up for the same boredom and adding in even more restrictive/punitive bahavioural expectations is a great idea. But single year accelerationis pretty simple compared to 2+ years. If he was only 12 months ahead in third grade that could be dealt with just by choosing a school carefully.

    Either way, he'll be bored, but with a year extra age maybe he'll have better self control and be able to cope with afterschooling. Either way, it sounds like they won't be teachinghim anything, whether he goes this year or next?

    In general, I favour play based preschool (because everyone can have fun then, and they can work on social skills), kindergarten entry on time (not early, because they're not going to teach them anything anyway), and skipping 1st rather than K (because K has more play, more socials skills work, and less time at desks).

    But the school will hate you if you redshirt him and then skip 1st.

    Dude, I see that claim that kids with high IQ are super mature made all over the place, but have seen slim evidence of it IRL. They're kids who like fart jokes and wriggle and hit their friends just like any other, even if they have conversations about esoteric subjects (which display a very age-appropriate lack of wisdom).

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    Quote
    They're kids who like fart jokes and wriggle and hit their friends just like any other

    That's my DD but there again having a ribald and lively sense of humor is a personality trait not a sign of maturity or lack thereof, right?

    Last edited by madeinuk; 03/12/15 07:27 AM.

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    There are a handful of private schools in our area but are costly. Some of them are out of our price range. One is a Montessori school that I would love from him to attend but again, it's costly. We could do a kinder only option, but that's something we would have to talk about.

    He WAS in a Prek class three times a week but we had to pull him. The preschool wasn't willing to work with him, academically or socially. He was being bullied and set aside by his teacher. It was a bad experience. I agree in attending kinder and skipping 1st grade. Though, the school here, the kinder class isn't play based. It's full on school! We took a tour and I was shocked. It's more like 1st grade was for me.

    He is gifted but not mature. He's a silly 4 year old who loves fart jokes! He pushes and hits, runs, and laughs. It's like two different ages sometimes.

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    I would not hold him back a year for kindergarten. We had several suggestions of doing that with DS9 (summer bday), that he wasn't socially ready for kindergarten. And a suggestion that he repeat kindergarten, that he wasn't socially ready for 1st grade. Well...he wouldn't have been "socially ready" a year later, either.

    We lucked out and had the most fabulous kindergarten teacher, and he was quite happy. We are homeschooling now; the gap between the academic and social abilities is too great for school to deal with. But kindergarten worked, and I'm happy we ignored everyone who told us to wait.

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    Originally Posted by amielynn38
    He is gifted but not mature. He's a silly 4 year old who loves fart jokes! He pushes and hits, runs, and laughs. It's like two different ages sometimes.

    This is why I like the term "asynchronous" so much better than "gifted". They are still kids even if they are really smart.

    I would look strongly at Kindergarten - as long as it's not boring he may get something out of it. It probably depends a lot on the teacher.

    Also, if there are any summer camps for gifted (I mean asynchronous) kids in your area that may be worth looking at too.

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    Originally Posted by Tallulah
    Dude, I see that claim that kids with high IQ are super mature made all over the place, but have seen slim evidence of it IRL. They're kids who like fart jokes and wriggle and hit their friends just like any other, even if they have conversations about esoteric subjects (which display a very age-appropriate lack of wisdom).

    I will preface this with the hallowed caveat: when you see one gifted kid, you've seen one gifted kid. And I'll add that I'm a middle-aged giftie who still likes wriggling and fart jokes, so I don't necessarily identify those traits as part of maturity (in fact, I believe I've seen an article recently about a study that correlated adult playfulness with giftedness).

    That said, the common mismatches I've seen are:

    - Interest in subject areas ahead of age peers (which can be anything: science, literature, current events, entertainment, etc).
    - Sense of social justice.
    - Capacity for sharing and other pro-social behaviors.
    - Self control.

    This is all relative. We know that an 8yo is still going to be having impulse control issues, we also expect that there has been significant improvement from when that child was 5. When you put 8yos and 5yos together in a room, you should note the differences. If you put your 5yo in that room, and note that he behaves more like the 8yos, he gravitates towards them, and the 8yos are more accepting of him than any of the other 5yos, that's a pretty good sign of a mismatch.

    I see that sort of phenomenon with my DD10 in mixed-age groups ALL. THE. TIME.

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    I wouldn't hold back gifted kid because of maturity. Think of it this way.. instead of worrying about next year in K. What is he going to be like in High School a year older than most of his peers. Years ago when I was looking at sending vs. holding back my DD. (I didn't and later regretted it but she isn't a gifted kid and struggled academically) I read research that showed problems with 18 year old H.S. seniors. who had been held back in Kindergarten, particularly boys. These kids were more likely to mentally check-out and not meet up to expectations, and get into trouble.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    Originally Posted by Tallulah
    Dude, I see that claim that kids with high IQ are super mature made all over the place, but have seen slim evidence of it IRL. They're kids who like fart jokes and wriggle and hit their friends just like any other, even if they have conversations about esoteric subjects (which display a very age-appropriate lack of wisdom).

    I will preface this with the hallowed caveat: when you see one gifted kid, you've seen one gifted kid. And I'll add that I'm a middle-aged giftie who still likes wriggling and fart jokes, so I don't necessarily identify those traits as part of maturity (in fact, I believe I've seen an article recently about a study that correlated adult playfulness with giftedness).

    That said, the common mismatches I've seen are:

    - Interest in subject areas ahead of age peers (which can be anything: science, literature, current events, entertainment, etc).
    - Sense of social justice.
    - Capacity for sharing and other pro-social behaviors.
    - Self control.

    This is all relative. We know that an 8yo is still going to be having impulse control issues, we also expect that there has been significant improvement from when that child was 5. When you put 8yos and 5yos together in a room, you should note the differences. If you put your 5yo in that room, and note that he behaves more like the 8yos, he gravitates towards them, and the 8yos are more accepting of him than any of the other 5yos, that's a pretty good sign of a mismatch.

    I see that sort of phenomenon with my DD10 in mixed-age groups ALL. THE. TIME.
    Sure, but that is just one child. But they're not that common,it's just the rest of us with kids who think farts are hilarious are too embarrassed to speak up. Or, that we mistake interest in space flight for maturity.

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    That is exactly my DD's situation.

    She probably can handle full-time schooling next year. She already goes to school 8:00 to 1:00 all week and when she comes home, she does her extracurricular activities which are rather demanding and difficult.

    We're not doing K next year because of poor academic fit. DD can handle all day of having fun playing but she shouldn't have to sit through hours and hours and inappropriate busy work when she is 5 or be expected to work independently with worksheet isolated from peers. We'd be officially enrolled at a charter school so we'll be able to enter a B & M school next year as a first grader but I'm not sure if that'd going to work for DD.

    I wouldn't hold her back a year for maturity reasons and she is very immature in many ways. She is just so goofy, silly, and fun-loving that she tires people around her and goes crazy too often.

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    We had our son tested to see if he should go to kinder at 4, and the tester said that she would have him go to kinder with agemates to learn all the social/do school stuff, and then skip 1st. It all worked out well for us, though there were lots of meetings before the school agreed to a grade skip. There is a lot more play stuff in kinder, so nonacademic stuff to keep your kiddo less bored. First, at least in our state, is still a learn to read/learn to do very basic math year, with much less play than kinder, which my kiddo would have hated. Just throwing that out as a possibility.


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    I will also add that I wouldn't hold back a gifted kid for maturity reasons unless you are sure that your gifted kid is not within the range of maturity for that grade. There is a ridiculously huge range of maturity in the early grades. GT kids may stand out more because a teacher might see how much they can do academically and subconsciously expect them to be better behaved. But GT kids are like all kids -- they come with a variety of maturity levels. In all likelihood, they are within acceptable range

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    In general, the research does not support good long-term outcomes for retentions and redshirting (individual cases, of course, may vary), especially for boys, who have a significantly increased likelihood of high school dropout, compared with non-retained age/ability-matched peers. Granted, the research is focused on retentions for academic or social maturity reasons, not GT students. The one place where being old-for-grade does appear to be somewhat advantageous is in competitive sports, where being more skilled or stronger because you are older appears to translate into being perceived as more talented, and thus more worthy of playing time and coaching attention. This really only works if your late birthday is after August 1st, though, because there are fairly strict birthdate cutoffs for competitive team sports in most communities.

    Agree with st pauli girl that I wouldn't delay entry for maturity reasons. I would go further, and say that an age-eligible child not being within the range of maturity for kindergarten-age students is an even stronger argument for being in school, in order to access services for social skills development. Especially considering the diversity of social-emotional skills in primary-age children.


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    I just pm'd you with my phone number. If you want to talk on the phone, please do. I think we are on the same journey. I feel your pain.

    If you don't want to call, my short answer is either skip public K and go straight into 1st on time or go into public K, but make sure you understand how behavior modification works in the school before you do that and see if you can get a teacher who is nurturing.

    If he's like my daughter, the issues your son is going to face are going to be labeled behavior choices. For a sensitive kid, that can be a problem. Do you have testing? If so, you might be able to talk to a tester or a gifted psychologist about potential accommodations at the very beginning.

    We (also in TX) held back our August kid on the advice of the neuropsych who tested ours. She had miserable K year because it was all drawing, which she refuses to do with a teacher who labeled every motor and executive function failure a behavior choice. Now she has a great teacher and our current problem is trying to keep her from working ahead.

    She loves to learn. We're not at all worried about her being "held back" educationally because she's pretty easily entertained and can do sight word worksheets till the cows come home and she reads an insane amount of nonfiction. Her current reward system for not starting her work at school before the teacher says to is that we give her a challenging standardized test at home once a week :-). Totally not joking.

    I don't regret what we did. I think it was necessary--and her writing still isn't where she needs for the next grade up and holding back can be easier than trying to fight for accommodations as long as you can support the child on the behavior piece-which is hard. (I never know what is behavior and what is dyspraxia and what is just not learning much.)

    But we are managing and our kid is managing and becoming really articulate about her feelings and is learning to be okay with herself slowly but surely.

    Really bumpy road. Really hard. But I believe if we just hang with her, she's going to be okay.


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    Yep. Asynchrony IS giftedness. Many ages at once. Also...agree with each is different. I have 2 with IQs very, very close to one another, with different strengths and weaknesses and VERY different personalities. They each present their own unique challenges.

    We, too, liked play-based for pre-K. It is great for social skills. Also, even if your DC is in school all day (and I agree that K usually includes lots of social-skill work), hopefully, there will not be enough homework for quite some time to prevent playdates after school...plenty of time to work on social skills.

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    I mistrust maturity issues. Sometimes people just don't fit in with age mates. This may last their entire childhood or entire life and should not be used to deny them academic challenge.

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    I mistrust maturity issues. Sometimes people just don't fit in with age mates. This may last their entire childhood or entire life and should not be used to deny them academic challenge.

    Me too. Handwriting issues are also sometimes a red herring. We had a school tell us they wouldn't let our kid in the math class he needed because his handwriting was so poor. A different school told us that as long as he could communicate understanding in some way (verbally, e.g.), he certainly wouldn't be held back in math. Fast forward years later, and he still has pretty crummy handwriting, which he would have had if we held him back or not. (I'm not talking about a diagnosed disability here, just things that teachers sometimes say to hold back kids.)

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    Originally Posted by puffin
    I mistrust maturity issues. Sometimes people just don't fit in with age mates. This may last their entire childhood or entire life and should not be used to deny them academic challenge.

    This. DS was in a traditional age-based classroom at a daycare and even at 3, he felt like he did not fit in at all. We were starting to have some issues develop, especially at home. And all the kids he hung out were 1-2 years olders - in fact, it got a little awkward when he would gravitate to the older siblings of his same-age classmates and have nothing to do with the same age classmates.

    We had him start at a gifted private school where his class was for 4-5 year olds (basically kindergarten plus) - and there, he fits in with peers that are within a year of him. He still likes hanging out with older kids too, but he loves his class because his peers are like him.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    I wouldn't hold him back unless you had some very specific social concerns

    I wouldn't hold back even if you had very specific social concerns.

    We have among our children a very young-for-grade autistic 2E and an extremely young-for-grade 2E. We recently received an apology from someone who insisted that we hold these kids back-- she now realizes she was utterly wrong about that.

    If there are social or behavioral concerns, you work on them as a major priority. But you don't want to create an academic mismatch in the process. A held-back kid loses a year of working on those concerns because he's not in the environment where the skills will be stretched.

    That said, if you are permitted to go observe in K classrooms, you should. If it's academic K, it may be a poor fit anyhow. If it's a playroom K or some kind of mix, it could work. But you need to find out what goes on to assess the fit.

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    I'd like to point out that oftern their is a lot of growing up done between 41/2 and 5. My DD would not have been ready socially for school, now she's 2 months off 5 and she will be fine. Can you hold you decision off?

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    Thank you everyone!
    You have been a sounding board for my own inner concerns and brought to light some things that hadn't occurred to me.

    Yes, we can enroll him next month and pull him before August if he hasn't improved in the next few months. I do think 5 months could do the trick. We are going to enroll him in some extra classes now, to help with some social stuff. Classes at our Children's Museum, etc. Not too much though.

    I do think holding him back, then placing him in Kinder next year is a very bad idea. He would be very bored and just cause problems. If we did hold him back, we would try for 1st grade next year. Though I am not a fan of this idea.

    We have found two private schools, one is for gifted kids, that we will use if public doesn't work. They are costly so we will start saving now, just in case. If not private, then homeschooling.

    The kinder here is not play based. It's a full on classroom. I have observed it. That might work for DS. He could do worksheets all day! Plus they have art, music, and PE. He takes Taekwondo and will take piano. He's already a good piano player with no lessons.

    I will be working with the school counselor. I know they don't do pull out, but maybe they could do a gifted social class. They have some for other issues, like bullying and decision making.

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    The school counselor has been the single best thing about my daughter's school. My daughter knows she always has a safe person that she can trust to talk to. That's a good relationship to develop.

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    My DS6 is in first grade now, and I'm awfully glad I didn't delay his start in kindergarten. He's a late May birthday, so he was still a couple of months before the deadline. We are now in the process of learning that he is probably at least somewhat autistic, despite prodigious skills in reading and writing. I'm very glad to have access to the resources at school.

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    My older DS is summer birthday. We didn't hold him back and still he was bored to death until he got another year of acceleration later on. If your child is advanced, I would suggest not to hold him back. You will be surprised to see how many of the social issues disappear, when the child is intellectually stimulated. Best luck!

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    I am not pro-acceleration at all as I declined it for DS11 back in 2nd grade. However, it seems obscene to me to actually hold back a kid that will turn 5 three months before what is arguably an early (but increasingly common) cutoff of September. There is an advantage of dealing with social problems earlier rather than later. Interestingly, that is one of the arguments in favor of preschool and pre-k at least from some teachers' perspective in dealing with K students.

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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    Quote
    They're kids who like fart jokes and wriggle and hit their friends just like any other

    That's my DD but there again having a ribald and lively sense of humor is a personality trait not a sign of maturity or lack thereof, right?

    My goodness I hope so or my entire family is in trouble, and we're all quite conscientious and responsible otherwise. blush




    Ahem.



    DD is another summer baby, as were both of her parents-- take the 'free' acceleration and RUN. smile



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