Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advice please - 3rd grade->4th grade Mathematics?

Hi everyone. I am the parent of what I consider to be a very bright 3rd grader. She recently scored a 219 in Mathematics (NWEA MAP) which places her at the 95th percentile for instructional level (MAP doesn't score ability). We are in Indiana, in one of the "top" school districts but my daughter finds the curriculum to be "too easy". She is doing 4th grade work, without prompting, on websites like IXL. I have approached the school about moving her into the "challenge math" program, but they are not very receptive to the idea... stating that they would like to see if she continues to do well.

Do you have any advice for me? Should I attempt to press the issue further, listen to the school, get her tested independently for ability (IQ?), change school districts?

Thanks for any advice you can give. It makes me sick to my stomach that every math quiz and test that she brings home is an A and she complains that everything is "too easy".

Cliff

What school district if you don't mind asking? 3rd grade was when we knew we would have to start supplementing at home. My ds was in 5th grade math and LA when in 3rd so we were already accelerated.

Hi CliffH, welcome!

Was this the only time she took MAP? Our schools give it 3 times a year. In our experience, the school looks at the "pattern" of scores and not just a single score. In addition, they consider other data.

I understand your concern completely, though. No parent likes to see their child underchallenged!

I wish I could give you encouragement about using the MAP test scores for advocacy,, but I have 2 DYS who are scoring well above the 99th percentile for grade...a couple of grade levels up. They both also claim to be underchallenged at school in math, so we are looking at our options for math outside our school.

I would not independently IQ test unless you are certain that the school or some other program you are hoping to gain admission to would accept the testing.

Does she meet the criteria for the challenge math program? I would probably speak to the coordinator for that program and see what it is she needs to do to meet the criteria and focus on that. Best wishes!

@mecreature, thanks. Carmel Clay School district

@Loy58, this was her 2nd time taking MAP. The first time she took MAP in the Fall she got a 204 which put her at the 83rd percentile. In fact because of her initial score we signed up for IXL and she's been devouring it, even jumping into 5th grade work, but I suggested she may not want to get too far ahead of herself (is that good,bad?).

I have researched the correlation between MAP scores and various state standards and from what I've seen (e.g. Colorado https://www.nwea.org/content/uploads/2014/08/CO-Linking-Study-March-2010.pdf) her scores would put her in the "Advanced" category in other school systems.

Also, generally speaking, is it better to get a B in an advanced/challenge program than it is to get an A in a standard course?

Cliff

Don't put too much weight on these "advance" categories, especially before 5th to 6th grade. For example, back in elementary school, almost 2/3 of the 3rd and 4th grade students at the school DS11/DD11 attended tested in the "advance" category on the state math assessments. However, the 3rd and 4th grade GT math classes could only accommodate about 15% of each grade. I am aware that some other schools/districts are even more selective in that GT classes may only accommodate the top 2% to top 5%.

Anyhow, I think that NWEA uses a top 5% cut-off to indicate their version of "gifted" so you certainly have a basis for requesting more. However, your school's program may have higher standards and/or they might want to see a high score more than once. Ultimately, to advocate you need to know your school's cut-off for their program.

It's hard to say whether it's better to get a B in an advance program or an A in a standard program. It depends on your goals as well as repercussions for middle school. That may also not be your choice but the school's. I know that almost all the kids in the GT math classes got A's and in general the elementary math classes in our district are set up so that kids often get 100%.

Anyhow, I would certainly push for more information from your school to try to get your DD into the program if she qualifies. At the same time, you may be better off providing challenges outside of the classroom in the event that she falls outside the program criteria. Unfortunately, most schools keep elementary math too basic and school officials often feel uncomfortable even separating math groups until 5th to 6th grade and the few advance programs end up serving a tiny percentage of the student body.

PM sent

Carmel has excellent schools and even better math programs. I say keep at it and keep her in the thick of it. 219 is a good score but I would put money on some of the kids are getting in the 260s and over. A lot of kids get overlooked it seems by the math dept. keying on these super math kids. Get her involved with everything going on if she is up to it.

I wouldn't worry too much about grades - there are variables that go into grading that have nothing to do with the challenge level. Instead I'd focus on whether or not your child is learning anything in the course they are in, are they learning at a rate they are capable of or do they complain about the pace of instruction being too slow, are they saddled down with a lot of repetitive classwork and homework or just the right amount to be learning and moving along? Those are the questions I'd consider re correct placement. I'd also look at things such as quality of instruction, teachers, philosophy of program etc - moving into an "advanced" program doesn't always directly correlate with learning more or a better educational experience.

In your situation, the first thing I'd do is learn as much as I can about what criteria is used for placing children in the advanced math track (and learn as much about it as you can). Once you've got that info, try your best to fill in what your child is missing in terms of data (testing, other requirements such as teacher recommendation etc). If you can't get the placement you're looking for with the info the district/school is looking for, ability testing (IQ) *might* be helpful - we've used it as one data point in arguing for acceleration for our kids. It can be expensive though, and it will always be just one data point (which is usually looked at along with achievement testing, state testing, teacher recs etc). IQ testing isn't always looked at as something worthy of considering either - we've found some teachers and school staff to be very dismissive of it, so I wouldn't recommend assuming it will be well-received.

Whatever happens with this decision, I'd also not take my eye off the future for advocacy - we weren't able to accelerate our kids in elementary school but it was much easier once they hit middle school and math courses were more, er, straight forward. Our elementary school curriculum spiraled and included a lot of word problems, feel-good stuff for folks who don't "get" math, that type of thing in addition to nuts-and-bolts arithmetic. Once we were looking squarely at pre-algebra, algebra, etc it was much easier to prove achievement and ability and get a proper math placement.

For now, re after-schooling or enrichment (which we did for the two of our children that subject-accelerated in middle school) - stick with something you can tie to your state curriculum standards. Don't pay attention to things like curriculum standards in other states, or state testing. As someone mentioned above, it doesn't take much to score "advanced" on most state testing - in our state, I'd guesstimate at a minimum around 20% or all kids are scoring "advanced" in elementary school. Plus state testing doesn't go beyond grade level curriculum. MAP testing does, so keep your student's MAP scores. OTOH, don't be surprised if there aren't other kids in elementary school also scoring high on MAP - and don't be put off by being required to have something additional in the way of data. It doesn't mean your child shouldn't be moved up, it just means sometimes with advocating you really have to build a case for it. I hope I'm making sense!

Re IXL, I haven't seen it in years (my kids are all out of elementary school now), but I think it does have a tie-in to state standards. So check that - can you show what your child has mastered in IXL in a report that ties it to *your* state standards. If so, run those reports and keep them as data to show to the school. We did this with ALEKS when we after-schooled and it was a really easy way to show the school how what our kids had mastered tied directly to what the state/school district was expecting them to master at each grade level.

You can also ask your school to administer end-of-year exams for upper grades to show what your child has mastered - at least in theory you can. Our school district didn't have those when we asked

Best wishes,

polarbear

When you are feeling sick to your stomach, that is the answer. Your brain is telling you something is wrong and until you rectify it, it will bother you. In third grade, I am almost positive there is a national math challenge called Continental Math that the students gifted in math participate in and can even be recognized if they are scoring very high. Hopefully, you can have a GIEP meeting and ask them to add what you need for your child. It helps to ask and it gives you experience for the next time you have to have these discussions. When the school says, "No" too quickly, to me, it is an indication that (for whatever reason) they don't actually believe that some people absolutely need more mental challenge; they think we are being over zealous and they don't realize how a child can be totally unchallenged by the normal course load. At those ages early on, before all of the great classes they allow students to take when they are older, school might be mainly social. Social is great, but, as a parent you want to know that your child is learning something new. Hang in there. Try to advocate for grouping of the gifted children, so that they can move ahead together. I have also found that people do not believe how fast some people can learn and analyze. It really can be excruciating to have to go slow.

Our school district starts accelerated math in 3rd grade. The compact 3-4-5-6-7-8 into 4 years. Our experience with the accelerated math.. dd11 in 5th grade.. correct pacing proper fit. Her NWEA MAP scores are in the 240 range on 6plus test. (her last 2-5 MAP was a 245 last spring). On the other hand, our ds9 in 3rd grade and taking 2-5 MAP is scoring in the 245- 250 range. The pacing way is too slow and repetitve for him. I think the kids in the accelerated math had to have scores in the 95th percentile consistently not just one test as its one test one day.

Good luck on advocating for your daughter. In our district, we have been only met with road blocks.