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    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Mom2Two Offline OP
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    So, I'm talking to private school admission representatives. And, I'm going in being honest. I just don't want to waste my time on situations that won't work.

    Its been interesting. Some common statements:

    --We don't like homogeneous classrooms because it makes one group of kids think they are better than the others.

    --smart kids sometimes think they are better than others, so we really want to avoid that for him.

    --there are lots of very gifted kids here, so he will have a peer group.

    --the teachers will differentiate here with reading assignments.

    --most people say our school is academically ahead of the other schools, so he will get what he needs.

    --Most people find that the classes are much harder than they anticipate so rushing a kid ahead usually backfires down the road. So, we don't like to do that.

    --middle school is a time of great change so it is more important to work on character than academics.

    Have others heard these? What is your take-away with these statements? Any red flags or warnings I should heed?

    Thanks!

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    Originally Posted by Mom2Two
    So, I'm talking to private school admission representatives. And, I'm going in being honest. I just don't want to waste my time on situations that won't work.

    Its been interesting. Some common statements:

    --We don't like homogeneous classrooms because it makes one group of kids think they are better than the others.
    More so than being in a class where you are clearly smarter than most of the other children?
    Quote
    --smart kids sometimes think they are better than others, so we really want to avoid that for him.
    Kids' self-perceptions are their own business, unless they are so negative as to be debilitating. Some athletic kids have egos too, so do you abolish varsity sports?
    Quote
    --middle school is a time of great change so it is more important to work on character than academics.
    Concentrating on academic work takes your mind off of your appearance, why you don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend, etc. Meeting academic challenges can build character.

    Quote
    Have others heard these? What is your take-away with these statements? Any red flags or warnings I should heed?
    Most of the statements sound like red flags to me. It would be frustrating to pay tuition at a school whose philosophy you disagree with. I will save that pleasure for college smile.


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    The gotcha with selecting a school is that sometimes you can take a red-flag at face value and know the school won't be a good fit, but many times (either way - good fit or not), you'll never really know until your child has attended for a few days at least, if not actually enrolled.

    We had a great experience with private school (not a gifted school either, but advertised as college prep and working a year ahead of our public schools, plus offering subject acceleration and differentiated work within the classroom). The two things that were most helpful for our kids weren't actually advertised: teachers who cared about challenging their students and who were flexible, and peers they enjoyed being with.

    A few observations, just from one school:

    Quote
    We don't like homogeneous classrooms because it makes one group of kids think they are better than the others.

    Our school didn't state this exactly but had a different version of it, same general concept just didn't emphasize that gifted students would feel they were superior to other students. The reality was - there were disproportionately more families with gifted kids applying than were sending students to public school, so they had lots of questions about gifted classes etc. Yet the school was small and couldn't really support separate classrooms based on ability - so they had to have *an* answer to why they didn't have honors vs regular etc classrooms. In the end, it was all ok - both because the teachers individually were very keen on challenging their students, because the school did offer subject acceleration in a few subjects, and because the overall mix of kids wasn't low-ability or even middle-ability, many of the students who landed at the school were gifted at some level. The other thing that worked was simply a more-inspiring curriculum (in terms of being interesting) than offered at our local public schools.

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    --smart kids sometimes think they are better than others, so we really want to avoid that for him.

    As the parent of a "smart kid" part of me recoils at that statement, but another part identifies with it. I have very vivid memories of one "smart" kid who was in my grade level and classes all through school. He self-proclaimed to be pg (not sure if he really was or if he/his parents just believed he was). He thought he was above what was being taught in the classroom, didn't make efforts to be friends with other kids etc. I would not want my kids to have an attitude of being "better than" simply because they are smart. I do feel it's important to be able to find friends and understanding across ability levels, and I do feel that my kids got more of an education in how to be good *people* at their private school than they did in public school simply because our public schools didn't include values/etc as part of the curriculum, and the private school did.

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    --there are lots of very gifted kids here, so he will have a peer group.
    As I mentioned above, this did happen for us.

    Quote
    --the teachers will differentiate here with reading assignments.
    With statements like this, you have to dig in and ask what exactly is meant. Sometimes you also have to actually see the class in action to know what is really meant by differentiation.

    Quote
    --most people say our school is academically ahead of the other schools, so he will get what he needs.
    Our private school was academically ahead of the public school. It also offered more opportunities for enrichment, going deeper, going farther, and for subject acceleration. Did our kids always get what they needed? No. But it was a "better-by-far" solution than what they had in public school (here, not everywhere), and our kids loved their school.

    Quote
    --Most people find that the classes are much harder than they anticipate so rushing a kid ahead usually backfires down the road. So, we don't like to do that.

    They've most likely had this happen with kids who've been tiger-mom'd by achievement-driven parents. It doesn't necessarily mean the school isn't a good fit for a way-ahead-of-the-curve in ability student. The key is - will teachers listen to and work with parents, and do teachers have the time and the interest to genuinely care about the individual child.

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    --middle school is a time of great change so it is more important to work on character than academics.
    This could be a red flag - not only for the academics part but for what is meant by "character" - be sure it aligns with your own family values. OTOH, I'm probably a lone voice in this aspect here, but I agree with this. If I had to choose between a focus on academics or a focus on overall character (that fit in with my family values) I'd choose character during middle school. That doesn't mean I didn't advocate and support getting my kids what they needed in terms of intellectual challenge, but it does mean that I feel my kids benefitted greatly from being at a school where the entire focus wasn't on academics and where there were teachers and school philosophy that supported them in becoming understanding, caring, empathetic human beings (especially in that time of life when hormones were crazy!).

    Choosing schools is tough! I don't know how I'd get through it if I lived in an area where there were tons of options smile

    Best wishes,

    polarbear


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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    --middle school is a time of great change so it is more important to work on character than academics.
    Concentrating on academic work takes your mind off of your appearance, why you don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend, etc. Meeting academic challenges can build character.
    [quote]

    Just curious - do you have a child in middle school? I've seen some incredibly high-IQ kids be every bit as wrapped up in self-esteem issues and worries over boyfriend/girlfriend/popularity/etc as any other kid, whether or not they were appropriately academically challenged. We even had a group of "AP kids" who were in trouble with the law a few years back.

    I don't disagree that meeting academic challenges can build character, but there's a whole lot more to character and self-esteem than just focusing on academic challenges can provide.

    polarbear

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Just curious - do you have a child in middle school? I've seen some incredibly high-IQ kids be every bit as wrapped up in self-esteem issues and worries over boyfriend/girlfriend/popularity/etc as any other kid, whether or not they were appropriately academically challenged. We even had a group of "AP kids" who were in trouble with the law a few years back.
    My oldest son is in middle school. No need to shave yet.

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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    Just curious - do you have a child in middle school? I've seen some incredibly high-IQ kids be every bit as wrapped up in self-esteem issues and worries over boyfriend/girlfriend/popularity/etc as any other kid, whether or not they were appropriately academically challenged. We even had a group of "AP kids" who were in trouble with the law a few years back.

    My first roommate in college, a nice full academic scholarship guy, had already been arrested for a felony before he started college.

    He had to serve a few days in jail over winter break.

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    We have this type of situation with DD. Her school is small and nurturing and runs about a year ahead of local public schools academically. In terms of gifted services there are not really any available. However, she loves school. The teachers are warm and nurturing and she loves her friends. We decides that she may not end up as academically advanced as she would be if we opted for other local private/charter schools but she would probably end up a better person. There are more academically advanced students in her school and enough personal attention that it fills many of the gaps:).

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    polarbear describes a great example of how education can be done well, even within some of the limits you describe above. As always, it really comes back to the quality of the teachers and what they actually do in the classroom.

    Still.... I look at your list and I see a pile of red flags. Yes, they probably have been inundated with tiger parents, and you're feeling the backlash. Nonetheless, what I hear in your quotes is: "This is what we do." I don't hear anything even remotely like "Let's see what your child needs". If their assumption is that their standard practice will be a perfect fit for every kid, I'd be a little wary.

    I've spent some time talking with a range of private schools (though we are still, so far, in public). Most of these schools would be a terrible fit for my kids, as they really aim for the high-acheiving, self-motivated, top-of-the-class kids. I don't have any of those. Most private schools do teach a year or so ahead, and have an academically challenging curriculum which involves a much larger workload and considerably more drill and practice to ensure mastery. It's often more, but it's not necessarily deeper or faster. Their definition of gifted usually centres on the kinds of kids who can handle, and thrive, in this environment. If that's your kid(s), then you're a good match. For 2E misfits like mine, not so much.

    Most of the private schools I've spoken to, to be honest, describe what to me sounds like a serious hot-housing environment for bright kids, designed to achieve a very specific - and for kids like mine, rather narrow - definition of success. And it's structured to work for a specific - and rather narrow - slice of humanity. Not much room for divergence or creativity.

    So what do I look for, with my lovely misfits? By no means are all schools like this. The two schools that made me drool described how they individually assess each kid coming in (up to a full-blown psycho-ed evaluation, even), and put them where they need to be. They didn't care about age. They could describe kids currently in the school who had accelerated multiple grades, because that's what they needed. And others who joined a math class four years in advance but mostly stayed in his own grade because it was a better fit - and some who were also down a grade for certain subjects while ahead in others. And how these placements were changing all the time, as the kids' needs changed. And how they tried stuff out, and if it wasn't working better, they'd go back and/ or look for another way. Of course, the answer doesn't have to be acceleration; that's just a marker for flexibility (especially here, where our province is virulently opposed). So: is different books in lit class as far as their imaginations can stretch the concept of differentiation?

    So you may want to look for someone who has a decent answer to "What do you do with kids who don't fit perfectly into the box you've defined?" Do they look at the kid and try to change the box to make a better match - - - or do they keep squashing and chipping away at the kid to try and jam them in?

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    Yes, they probably have been inundated with tiger parents, and you're feeling the backlash.


    This might be a red flag all its own, in fact. frown

    If most of what they encounter as "gifted" is actually TigerCub instead, the curriculum, goals, classroom practices, and institutional policies are likely to reflect that.

    Might not be a bad idea to think about what administrative responses to heavy Tiger influence tend to be:

    a) rigid policy re: developmental arcs and age

    b) anti-acceleration polices, again fairly strict and rigid

    c) an attitude that most children must be "protected" from over-enthusiastic parents hellbent on creating high achievers

    d) focus on high (enough) achievement

    e) volume instead of rigor, which satisfies some Tiger parents that their children are "working hard" and "doing a lot" (relative to other children of similar age/ability), and

    f) "differentiation" which seems to be about throwing additional curricular materials at some students... which is a pretty easy way for those students and their parents to preen about how "advanced" the child is, and how much "different" his/her work is from peers... but-- maybe-- just like his/her classmates? Just a thought.

    Alternatively, it could be a real pressure cooker which caters NOT to students but to parents who want "success" at all costs.

    Ask about student achievement-- competitions, awards, etc.

    Also ask around about former students of the school-- at the local public schools (that is, does the claim of 'advanced' ring true?) and see what has happened to those students who have transitioned to other settings.



    In other words, I see some red flags in your red flags.

    Any school that tells you that their entire curriculum is "advanced" is potentially pandering to that demographic of parents in one way or another.

    Anti-elitist rhetoric and precocious treatment of narcissistic tendencies in students... er-- well, this clearly indicates that they've had considerable experience with special snowflakes aplenty and their parents. It may also indicate that they have had a distinct lack of experience with the Real Deal (higher LOG).


    As Michelle notes above-- it isn't so much a concern with whether or not this is hot-housing. You just have to ask whether or not your child belongs in that particular greenhouse. In Sally's post (above Michelle's), you can see the result of placement that IS correct in terms of match between child and environment-- so it can be good.

    I'd encourage you to follow up with Michelle's final question;

    Quote
    "What do you do with kids who don't fit perfectly into the box you've defined?" Do they look at the kid and try to change the box to make a better match - - - or do they keep squashing and chipping away at the kid to try and jam them in?

    smile



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    Mom2Two Offline OP
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    Wow, there are a lot of great thoughts in these comments. Thank you all so much.

    I do think I'm going to start using the "what do you do with a kid who doesn't fit into your program?" It has to have happened before; it would be interesting to see them describe the kid who didn't fit and what happened. I really like the question.

    I feel like "my interviews" aren't really giving me any solid feedback. Just a smattering of oft quoted antidotes.

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