Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Competitions. How young is too young?

I'm just not into competitions. To me, life isn't about being better than someone else or everyone else. I also want DD to learn something for the love of it and not make it about winning.

However, my DD4.5 just happens to be naturally super competitive. I told her piano teacher that we can't enter her into any competitions since DD'd be steaming mad if she doesn't win. We had a good chuckle over it since we both knew it's true.

We have a new string teacher and she wants us to commit to entering DD into next year's competition. We told her that we don't feel DD if developmentally ready.

We're not crazy stage parents. SO is taking this a bit more seriously than I am since he truly believes in her talent but he doesn't think music education should involve competition either.

When DD is a bit older and chooses to enter competitions, I don't think we'd prohibit her from entering them but how young is too young to enter competitions be it be music, chess, math, or sport?

In my opinion, anyone under age 4 is too young to compete. My DS is super competitive and he has entered competitions since he was 5 years old - in sports, chess, math, music. If you live in a cosmopolitan area, take your DD to watch the top profile music competitions there this year - there are "elementary" categories in instrumental music - you will be very surprised at how many little kids compete. The judges really take the time to write thoughtful comments and the ways the little kids can improve their skills and musicality.
We started with competitions that were very low stakes - the kind where every one got a medal and was treated like a winner. We then moved on to the competitive ones and at age 7 now, DS competes at the national level in some things.
In our case, competing has been a great learning experience and also opened DS's eyes to the fact that there are other kids out there whose drive, determination and skill set match his.

PS: I don't have a single competitive bone in my body, so this is all new to me. I think that preparing for competitions takes time away from learning new things. I do not voice my opinion, but let my DS lead the way.

My dd 3 and I play competitive games like cards, board games, connect 4 and so forth. Although, I sometimes let her win, most of the time I do not let her win. She is quite comfortable with the concept that sometimes other people will beat you at a competition. I started competitive games somewhere around 2 with tic tac toe. She plays soccer, but it is not competitive soccer. It is a bunch of kids learning to kick the ball around. As far as real competitions, I do not know, but I do believe competitions are valuable in general.

I was never one to want our DD to be involved in competitions especially when she was learning piano. Hard to say why but I didn't want her to be stressed and like you say, it was about learning and loving the music, not winning. Having said that, through one thing and another DD has been in different types of competitions. She was in the Eistedfford with her ballet group age 7 or 8 and a spelling bee. She has since done lots of academic type competitions and debating. It's not the same as what you are perhaps talking about but DD wasn't scarred and actually it has helped in lots of ways I didn't anticipate.

DD has become increasingly competitive but we don't put any emphasis on being in a competition other than taking part and using it as a way to face a challenge and, at times, fears. It is a good way to learn about not being the best, unless they win.

I have come to the conclusion that competitions aren't bad, it's more about the way you approach them and what you plan to get out of them. If it can be done without pressure or expectation or major meltdowns based on the outcome then have a go. Learning to both win and lose gracefully is a good social skill.

I was proud of our DD this week. She entered her first swimming race. She came dead last by a long long long way but I was so proud of her being involved and facing a fear. A kid she didn't know saw how nervous she was and yelled out to think of Maths equations. He obviously knew her. She thought about Quadratics all the way down the pool. No competitions aren't all bad!

I think this is child and event dependent. DS did math pentathlon in kinder and ended the event in tears because he only won 3 out of 5 matches. This is not a high stress competition, but I think he was a little young. The next competition was in Destination Imagination (DI) last year (second grade) and it was a great experience for him. They didn't win, and I never even saw the score sheet. The kids totally didn't care. It was a great team competition.

This year (third grade) he tried out for the UIL (University Interscholastic League - it's a Texas thing) Spelling competition at his school, made the team and went on to win a medal at the district competition. It was a great experience for him to have to work hard over a long period of time to be successful and to compete with other students who are the best at their schools. At his age I did have to plan the studying for him so that he worked a little each day (15-20 minutes) so that it didn't become overwhelming for him. I feel like that kind of event would have been a bit too much pressure a few years ago, but was great for his current stage of development.

He is doing DI again this year, and I doubt they will place as some teams are super committed and only admit gifted students (our school accepts all students), but it has been fabulous learning experience for him again this year.

There is a line from the poem "If... " by Rudyard Kipling which seems to answer well the question of when one is ready for competition:
Evidently this line is written on the wall of the players' entrance at Wimbledon, reminding competitors of the importance of good sportsmanship and winning/losing with grace.

I think it's child-dependent. Can the child handle losing and winning with grace in other situations? You may also want to find out how intense the feel of the competition is. DS started competing in chess tournaments at 5. I really was hesitant, and there are still things about it that I dislike, but it's also been good for him. I noticed his grace and sportsmanship when he started playing a team sport--he handled loss and failure much better than many other kids who had probably not experienced a lot of this before. I would actually feel more enthusiastic about it if he were less good at chess. He has a lot of expectations on him.

Also, music is really different from chess or sports. You can't really participate in chess or sports without someone winning or losing. Music is not inherently about that, so that would give me more pause.

We have a friend who's 10 YO son (at school with mine) is a national level athlete. Every time we talk, I get the Mars/ Venus feeling: every bit of advice she offers, every suggestion she makes for kid's activities or supports, would be so terribly, utterly wrong if applied to my son.

But her son - very like both his parents - is *deeply* motivated by competition. Any kind of school work, homework, project, artistic endeavour, even play activities - frame it in a competitive way and he enthusiastically gives it his all, wants to work hard, learn more, engage more. Take away the competitive element and blah. He's checked out and half-hearted at best. My DS, in contrast, loathes any possible hint of competition, and thrives only when it's not there.

So - my thought isn't age-specific, but more, can you get into her head at this young age and start to get some sense as to where she might fall on the spectrum above? If competition weighs her down, minimize or avoid. On the other hand, if it inspires her to soar - well, then you might need to find ways to let her fly.

I'm not terribly thrilled with the idea of music as a competition, either. If you can play a piece of music with skill and expression, everyone wins.

But... if my DD were intrinsically motivated by that sort of thing, and she practiced with more enthusiasm and pushed her abilities as a result... why not?

In your place, I would look at bringing my DD to a competition as an observer. Let her see what the competition experience is like, what she would be up against, etc. And then I'd let her make the call. If it's something she wants to be a part of next go round, fine. If not, that's perfectly fine, too.

Great idea.

If you feel she's ready for it, and she feels ready for it, AND her teacher feels ready for it, it wouldn't hurt to try to find a competition - you don't need to enter yet. I would try to make sure that the piece she plays is either something she's already working on normally or one she wouldn't need an excessive amount of time to learn - you want it to be a good, challenging experience but not too stressful since it's her first competition.

I don't know if something exists like this where you live, or for her age, but could you find a Solo and Ensemble type thing? Usually the way they work is: the student plays a solo (or a duet, trio, etc) for a judge. They receive a rating, I-IV, with I being the best. I've only seen them in my area for middle and high schoolers, but I googled it and saw one elsewhere for younger students. Plus, the youngest students could opt for a "comments only" judging system (versus rating and comments). This would be really nice if you could find it, because she's still got the motivation to do well and a competitive atmosphere, but she's only competing against herself. Also, if you go comments only, it would be a nice way to see if she likes it. You could even try a duet, if she liked that idea. However, you'd probably find something in that style, but not called Solo and Ensemble, at that age.

DD started doing 4-H in 1st when she was 6 and participated in "competitions" but they don't really truly complete until 3rd grade. She did her first real competition (a math contest) at 8 but didn't realize it was a competition rather than just a fun math challenge until I took her to the award ceremony. That went pretty well because then she could just be surprised and excited when she got an award, instead of disappointed that she didn't get first place. She was crushed to get "only" 2nd place in the 2nd grade spelling bee even though she lost on "millennium" which (as she complained) definitely wasn't on the 2nd grade spelling list.

I lean toward thinking 4 is really too young for a competition in which someone wins and someone loses. My DS is about a year older than yours and I think he's even a couple years too young.

What does the teacher get out of it and why would she be unwilling to tutor without that commitment, that's what I would be wondering.

As for too young, my DD4 would be fine and I would let her enter and to be fair I think learning to be a good loser is a valuable skill, so esp if she would lose the plot at not winning....

I am not overly competitive now and I was not at all competitive as a child, but I wish I had been, I think I missed out on some good opportunities because I was unwilling to stick my neck out.

I think if your daughter is mature enough to take her disappointment home rather than losing her temper in public, then it could be good for her development to learn healthy competition. I think if you aren't stage parents then you are likely to be able to guide her very well in this. From what I've seen competition is often innate and she isn't likely to change that desire to win. You can always try it once and see how she goes, future comps dependant on how she handles things.

I also like the idea of watching a couple of comps and letting her see how the participants handle themselves, I know my DD really responds well to modelling of that nature.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. They've all been very helpful as I try to get to the bottom of my confusion.

DD was a real sore loser when she was 2 even though all we were playing were collaborative board games. We've been working on this issue continuously and she has improved quite a bit. On the other hand, with soccer, she couldn't care less if her team won or lost. She hated it so much that she just wanted to be out of there.

I'm all for teaching her to handle competitions in a healthy manner and be gracious about winning and losing. I'm just not so sure if music needs to be involved in that process. On the other hand, she has become a little diva when it comes to music that I think she could use a reality check. It might make her more competitive in the long run but I think it's better for her to realize that she's not the only competent musician under the sun sooner than later (to be fair, she has acknowledged that one other person is a better pianist than she is but he is a seasoned professional jazz pianist).

I'm feeling rather neutral about piano competitions. I will take her to a piano festival this summer to see if she likes the atmosphere. Her teacher has mentioned competitions in passing but she knows piano is DD's secondary instrument and we want her piano journey to be fun and stress-free.

We've only had 2 lessons thus far with her new string teacher but we've been having a lengthy discussion regarding DD's aptitude, curriculum, goals, and potential. I do believe we are on the same page overall but she's a bit more pro-competitions than we are for DD. Anyhow, we are still talking and we seem to be going towards the direction that she'll have DD on a "competition diet" and we'll enter next year (2016) if DD is more predictable than she is now and we should know more after the winter recitals.

Thank you everyone again. I do think she is far too young to be focusing on one activity at the expense of everything else. I need to find a balance without making her feel that we don't respect her own choices and that is a lot easier said than done.

I'm baffled by the idea of music competitions. If it exists where you are it probably exists in my area. But I have only heard of annual music 'tests' that students take these days and various music performances, shows, ensembles, and youth orchestra's. Admittedly it can be a competition to try out and make it into these ensembles. But what you win in the right to participate and perform not trophies or awards. If she is playing strings is there a youth orchestra she would like to challenge herself to get a spot in. Are their youth chamber music groups in your area?

bluemagic, the youth orchestra in our city has a very strict age requirement and DD will be eligible to audition in 4 years.

There are string group classes but most of those are aimed at 4th grade and up. What DD really wants to join is an improvisational class for string jazz band but I don't think that's going to happen for many, many years.

The competition her teacher has in mind is a state competition. The winners then move to a regional semi-final. I believe there is substantial scholarship money involved but that's not really a consideration for us. We certainly do not expect DD to win anything.

We've been dealing with a lot of minimum age requirements since last summer. DD ended up not doing the summer camp her former teacher wanted her to participate since the people in charge wanted her doing beginning and non-music things with other preschoolers when she was ready for technique and music theory classes. Her new teacher is not a big fan of the Suzuki method so we are not doing any Suzuki group classes either. It's rather sad that we can't access the resources in our community.

Anyhow, DD had her 3rd lesson with her new teacher and I think we're going into the right direction. Her new teacher is determined to get rid of all of DD's sloppiness and for once, DD is actually cooperating. She is a different child. The new work load is very demanding and technical but DD is loving it. I've never seen her smile so much during her lessons.

I'm still not sure if I want her on a stage facing a panel of judges when she's only 5 and I still believe she can learn without dealing with competition but as her teacher puts it, you'll only learn to perform by performing. I might have to hold a lot of home recitals with friends and family.

I have never heard of music competitions either. I thought kids went to music to learn to play and to improve on their own performance. Exams I have

Here is an example of a music competition:
http://www.kaufmanmusiccenter.org/kc/about/youth-piano-competition/
This one starts at age 7, but a highly talented 6 year old I know participated in it 2 years ago.

They do, but some children and their parents dream of becoming professional classical musicians. The job market for classical musicians is so bleak that competitions can serve a useful winnowing purpose. If you aren't winning them, you can certainly continue to play for enjoyment and take lessons, but you will likely not make a good living from classical music.

I was listening to a radio talk about the current state of the careers of professional classical pianists - the panel seemed to agree that the performers outnumber the audiences (it was said tongue in cheek).

DD was on track for American Protege before all the changes in our life. It would have been so much work.
Her friend does violin competitions and it is interesting how there are so many levels to competitions. The mother researches and decides which ones her daughter could be "competitive" at, but she told me these are not the top level. The top level is super difficult and those are the ones when kids tour at 12 etc. But going to them is expensive too, like all competitions. I was a competitive figure skater and that is almost as bad as horseback riding. You need close to 100K per year to pay the top coaches. A kid has to want to compete.

I always see two different "levels" of competitions: the expensive, cutthroat ones that are basically about winning, which personally I would not take a 5-year-old to; and competitions that are more 'friendly' and have a more cooperative atmosphere. I guess usually where I live they're called festivals and usually for older kids and/or orchestras. In my mind they're two distinct categories. Even if your child is planning for a career as a classical musician, some kids love that competitiveness of the first type and some kids seem to be negatively affected by it no matter how old they are. Like you said, kids really have to WANT that - if you're not sure if she would, I'd wait, myself.

I think I'm having a lot of questions and doubts since we're trying to navigate a world that seems to require an insane amount of work and commitment from young children and their parents.

It so happens that we're undecided about next year's school option. I am not too crazy about sending DD to a classroom where she won't learn anything academically. Unschooling might be a better alternative for us for the next few years and that could mean that DD would be practicing a lot naturally.

I need to decide what educational setting would be in DD's best interest for the next school year and see how preparing for the competition(s) on top of recitals and exams would fit into our life, and not the other way around.

An update.

We decided to let DD choose as we didn't have compelling reasons to stop her if she wants to participate.

I had a talk with DD throughout yesterday about competitions. At first, DD thought it sounded like a race and the best one wins prizes. I told her that it's more like a recital and the meaningful part is getting objective feedback from professional violinists. And the icing on the cake is that as she advances, she might earn opportunities to solo with a real orchestra. To that she responded, "You mean my DREAM can come TRUE?"

I'm taking this with a grain of salt since her dream changes every 6 months or so. First, she wanted to be a ballerina (age 2.5), then an orthopedic surgeon (age 3 to 3.5), and then a jazz musician (3.5 and onward). She had never expressed any desires to become a classical concert soloist before but she is 4 and she is more than entitled to dream about whatever her little heart desires.

Anyhow, now that she has put it that way, who are we to stand on her way of reaching her dream (cough, cough)?

I think having in-home recitals is a great idea (and bit of a stepping stone). That's not to say that she can't do a competition/class recital as well...but the home recitals are a great way to hone her skills for a particular goal without so much pressure. As a performer myself, I will say that there is nothing like performing in front of an audience. It's way to engage in that experience, without the high stakes. AND you can serve wine and cheese.

The probability that she becomes a classical musician is not high, but it is not zero, either. In addition, the pursuit of low-probability dreams can have benefits even if the goal is not achieved. I never became world chess champion, but the dream of becoming one motivated me to train and become a very good player.

FWIW, our area has a low-level festival run by the local piano teachers association. My DD did her first piano competition at 7. She was very relaxed and performed beautifully. She won her division and got to perform in a special concert.

The following year when she knew what the competition meant, she was an anxious wreck. Preparation was truly miserable but her teacher thought that DD would be fine once she got tot the competition. At the competition, she only played part of her piece and then blanked out. The judge wrote a heart-felt critique that pointed out that DD was one of the most expressive piano students that she had ever heard and that what she did play, she played beautifully. DD quit piano the following week. I couldn't even get her to do her end-of-the year recital which was scheduled for a month later.

I still run in to DD's former piano teacher. She regrets DD giving up piano because DD had "a lot of potential" and has said to me that it would have been better if DD hadn't done the competition. She wistfully asks if I think that DD will ever come back and I have to tell her "No."

DD now plays another instrument and still loves music. It's now several years later. DD finally will touch the piano. She will play melodies so that she can figure out how they should sound on her other instrument but that's about it.

How on earth do we prevent this? My dd who is only 4 is already starting to balk at doing anything in front of anyone - and it really is only ever just for fun, she has inherited my extreme stage fright by the looks of things, soooo sad.

Dorothy Delay said something like prodigies' nervous system is wired differently and those kids actually feel calmer in front of the audience.

My DD is NOT a prodigy and she gets nervous about playing but she gets into a "zone" and she delivers.

She is only 4 so I don't know how her ability to perform on stage is going to change. knute974, thank you for sharing your DD's story. I will definitely remember it when we need to make a final decision about her participation. I'm glad that the experience did not stop her from picking up a different instrument.

Bostonian, you're right of course that it's more about the process than the goal. As far as a childhood hobby goes though, classical music is...expensive. The amount of money we are spending on her music lessons relative to our income only makes sense if this is going to be more than just a pastime for her but she's much too young for anyone to be thinking about her career. I feel we're over-invested in this particular area and we need to scale back even if it might be her dream to become a concert soloist.

Marnie, I do have a few friends who wouldn't say no to free wine and cheese even if they'd have to listen to my DD play music. Her piano teacher has been very helpful in making public performance "normal" for her but I also want DD to know that performance doesn't have to be going on a big stage in front of strangers and that it can be fun and stress-free.

Mahagogo5, a lot of people seems to think young children do not get stage fright but I've seen more than a few young children refuse to go on stage, including my DD. Have you tried getting her to perform at home for people she likes?

Yes she loves playing for us and her teacher- mostly it's anything but piano. She's fine with that but won't sing, dance, ask questions etc for fear of being laughed at. Im sure it will extend to piano eventually. We have a laughter filled home which isn't goin to change (hopefully) but she struggles to tell when people are laughing with joy and delight compared to being laughed at...,

We haven't done formal recitals or competitions, but #1 sings for church in solo and ensemble, and brings down the house at summer camp. That's the child who's a natural performer. #2, on the other hand, is very reluctant to play in public, even in front of a fairly small group of friends--unless a member of the family plays too. Totally different scenario when a parent or older sib is on stage too.

Maybe performing with a close friend, family member, or trusted teacher might be a good stepping stone?

About stage fright, my son did 4 performances for his school in December and will do 3 or 4 more in a few weeks (possibly 6 if they ask him to do talent show in May) as the MC for the dance and music show. He did one performance in both English and Spanish (the rest English only) announcing all the acts. A kid (son of the art teacher) came up after the performance and asked "How do you do that? How do you not get nervous? and my son answered "How do you know I am not nervous?"

I see a parallel here with my kids and piano. My DS10 would represent the competitive version - he's motivated by recitals and will practice with a recital in mind even though it's not coming up for months. DD12, on the other hand, has always been motivated by the music and saw recitals as a necessary evil. She'll be lit from within by a song that she loves and practice it happily, but has to be dragged up on to the recital stage. They've always been like this - it's a reflection of their temperaments rather than their ages.

So I'd say it should be assessed on a child-by-child basis. First, is the child motivated and inspired by competing, and second, how does the child handle defeat? If those two aspects are healthy and appropriate, then age isn't as much of a factor.