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    Joined: Nov 2013
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    shifrbv Offline OP
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    I struggled between putting this here or in the testing forum. Because DD has yet to take the test, I'm sticking it here to seek advice.

    DD's MAP test in the fall was at 220 (98%) for 3rd grade math. Her growth target is 230 by Spring. She took the Winter test in mid-December (we were surprised because school discontinued winter testing but her class was tested anyway). She only grew 1 point. No surprise to us as everything is a repeat and the teacher does not support differentiation.

    The school has a "high ability" program in which they state they will only teach 1 year ahead. The teacher has made it clear to us this is the program.

    The problem: The principal has posted a "school improvement plan" which states they will meet 100% of student's personal growth goals in NWEA reading and math prominently on the school's home page.

    The school has a guideline that students must achieve 95% if they are to remain in the program. Next, year, 4th graders must achieve 98% or above if they are to advance in middle school

    What the teacher is doing seems engineered to provide DD a guaranteed fail.

    When we relayed this to the teacher, she stated they do not teach 3 years ahead and offered us no other solution. Meanwhile, she has been pulling groups in her class to help them prep for Spring MAP (DD has heard everything they are doing). She is basically teaching them to the test everything that DD already knows and has not pulled DD 1 time allowing her to fail.

    The Spring test is in April. State testing is in March. DD's teacher said if she is to work with DD it will only be after state testing, and maybe only 1 time per week. She is not supportive at all.

    DH and I disagree on what to do. I feel the teacher is responsible for providing some type of support to help DD succeed (per the improvement plan). DH says it's unrealistic to expect this and that the teacher probably does not have materials or knowledge to teach DD at that level in the 3rd grade.

    Meanwhile, DD sits in class doing low level work and watching others learn.

    I am feeling like not taking the Spring test and citing the above reason. DH says I would look like a lunatic to the school system and would be ostracized. I feel like we have no good choices and would like others advice for this situation in dealing with a completely recalcitrant teacher.




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    Kai Offline
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    Based on your daughter's score, a placement one year ahead would be appropriate.

    You want to skip to the level just above where mastery has been achieved, and scoring at or above the 90th percentile indicates mastery--students scoring at the 50th percentile have *not* mastered grade level material.

    Looking at the RIT score tables, a fall score of 220 equates to just under the 90th percentile (89th, actually) in fall of 4th grade, so if she had been placed in a 4th grade math class in the fall, it would have been appropriate.

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    We've run into similar problems at our MAP-testing schools, although the schools do not threaten to remove students from the programs if they are underchallenged...my DC are just sometimes underchallenged and the school does not always have a program for them.

    I see your dilemma and you are not alone. I have two DC who often have extreme scores and the school has usually not volunteered to teach them at the "level" their own testing suggests. The teachers usually just remark, "Wow, those are high." Our schools do use differentiation, though - it just typically has not been enough, as they are stuck in their correct age-level grade. The scores usually have just placed them in the high grouping for grade.

    Our solution has been to talk to the schools and teachers, while afterschooling at the correct level at home. It is a VERY imperfect solution, and honestly, is not fair to my kiddos. The good news is, though - my DC are making progress.

    I wouldn't refuse to test - I see the test as one objective measure of what my DC was able to learn...and incidentally, DD9's MAP scores correlated pretty well with her EXPLORE scores this past year, as well as what I see IRL. So I do not think the scores are meaningless.

    Our teachers are trying, but our sticking point is getting differentiation beyond grade level. DS6 is at the 99th percentile in math - 3 grades up. DD9 is at the 99th percentile one grade up in reading and math, and has very high percentiles - for 8th grade. Her scores best correlate with the average G&T 8th graders in our schools (she is "off the charts" for 8th graders in the "regular" classes), but she is in G&T 4th grade. No grade skips here, although DD is now old enough to be in G&T - DS is not. Our work with the schools is ongoing, but at the end of the day my goal is for my children to learn. I will help them if I have to.

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    Quote
    The principal has posted a "school improvement plan" which states they will meet 100% of student's personal growth goals in NWEA reading and math prominently on the school's home page.
    To prepare for advocacy, you may wish to print the statement from the school's home page (before it is changed, updated, or removed). You may wish to gather evidence of your daughter's fall score (220), winter score (221), and spring target (230). Having these source documents in hand, you may wish to meet with the principal and review these documents. Calmly ask what strategies are in place for helping your daughter achieve a 9-point gain in her score. Listen to his thoughts, ask gently probing questions to clarify, and be prepared to offer solutions if needed. Document the meeting including agreements reached, action plans, next steps. There is great advocacy information in the Davidson Guidebook.

    Another option may be after-schooling your daughter if this subject is of great interest and she would find it to be fun to learn more about math on her own free time.

    If the overall school environment becomes toxic and not conducive to learning, you may wish to consider other educational options (acceleration, change to a different classroom, change to a different school, partial homeschooling, homeschooling, etc) to support your child.

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    We had a similar situation where the district expects students to score 98th+ percentile on above-level achievement testing in order to qualify for gifted services, yet do not provide the learning necessary for students to achieve that level. So the kids who qualify are the ones who are getting outside support/enrichment. You are probably going to have to do some teaching on your own to get around this nonsensical policy (unless you find that the principal is of some help--it's worth a try). I had DD do Khan Academy online at home above grade level...maybe 30-60 minutes per week, and her math score went way over the 99th percentile.

    We have had similar issues with DS...he is 7 in second grade, but the teacher insisted that he sit through second grade math. His above level computerized score was literally off the chart even for 10th grade (the chart i had only went to the 75th percentile). The teacher completely disregarded this saying that those tests don't measure every single second grade standard. Luckily I found an ally at the school who fought for DS and he was allowed to do Khan Academy at school rather than sit through the ridiculous second grade curriculum. So that is a potential "solution" you could suggest. It was not an ideal situation by any means (DS was left on his own to teach himself), so since then we did a school change.

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    ITA w/ KAI. A MAP score of 220 is actually a very good match for 4th grade level math. It means that she should fall around the 89th percentile of a typical regular class. Since these are GT kids doing a one-year acceleration in math, she may actually have far more peers at her level or above, perhaps a quarter or a third of the class.

    50th percentile actually indicates insufficient acquisition of skills, particularly in a high-performing school where that same score may be a significantly lower percentile. In your DD's case, at least based on her MAP score, there is still room for improvement at the 4th grade level. Rather than acceleration, I would instead focus on solidifying and deepening her understanding/mastery of 4th grade math. It appears that her teacher did not take your request for a double-acceleration seriously. Perhaps if you approach the teacher with a request to strengthen your DD's grasp of 4th grade math, you might get a more helpful response.

    Do not despair as it is entirely possible to maintain 98th percentile with just a one-year acceleration in math, although you would need to have a very strong grasp of the math that you have covered. I would also not be too worried with a stagnant winter score as due to different order of topic coverage, among other factors, the year-end score is often more telling than a mid-year score.

    Ultimately, you can also spend an hour a week with your DD to strengthen her math skills. At this stage, you are still dealing with elementary math so unless you are math-phobic, you may be able to help her just as well as the teacher.

    Last edited by Quantum2003; 02/02/15 11:05 AM.
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    If you were going to after-school, I would put the MAP score aside and assess topic by topic to see where you're really at. There are various free assessments floating around online but what worked well for us was to simply purchase a textbook and work through it in a modified manner. We went with Singapore Math based on a recommendation and I think especially for checking coverage it works well given its lack of filler. Then you just walk through the chapters/problems and stop if there seems to be a gap i.e. "I don't know how to do this." or do a enough problems to satisfy yourself per section and just skip forward if they look good.

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    shifrbv Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by Kai
    Looking at the RIT score tables, a fall score of 220 equates to just under the 90th percentile (89th, actually) in fall of 4th grade, so if she had been placed in a 4th grade math class in the fall, it would have been appropriate.

    Ok, but her winter score of 221 drops her to 82%. Doesn't this mean she's not receiving the right material in class and is going the wrong way?

    As far as 4th grade math goes, I don't know that I would quantify what they are doing as really teaching 4th grade math.

    DD uses IXL and the number of topics covered in 4th grade explodes compared to the earlier grades. Her teacher so far has taught 7 topics. Most I would consider either 3rd or 4th grade:
    * Rounding
    * Multiplication (3 digit x 2 digit max)
    * Division (3 digit divided by 1 digit)
    * Area and Perimeter (of basic squares and compound rectangles)
    * Measuring Angles
    * Quadrilaterals
    * Lastly, they are just now moving into fractions

    When I look at IXL, a lot of these skills are covered in earlier grades so I feel they are not really an acceleration. For instance, the class took 1 1/2 months to cover area and perimeter. Not triangles or trapezoids, just squares and rectangles. IXL has this popping up in 2nd grade skills. Alot of time wasted. Where they are starting just now at the end of the year is where I feel DD should have started at the beginning of the year. If she had done so, I believe we would have seen growth.

    What bothers me more is that these skills don't match up with NWEA's flier which shows examples of math problems by RIT band. For 221-230 DD needs to know operations of integers, consumer math (percents, interest, etc.), algebraic expressions, calculating means, etc. When I look at IXL, these are all more 5th/6th grade problems. They don't show up in 4th grade.

    I saw the same when I looked at a detailed report that some awesome person in New Jersey posted from DesCartes as well and I feel they simply will not be covered in 4th grade math.

    I felt like printing a copy, highlighting it and putting a big question mark because I don't feel that DD could have answered any of the questions without outside help. How is she supposed to know like and unlike integers with what's been taught? Or averages or percents?

    I have done a lot of research on this and I do feel my only stumbling block at this point is a teacher who is teaching to a mostly lower level class (many of the kids can't get elapsed time and she's been working with a lot of them). I thought earlier it was more of a math class but now that DD explains what's happening, I see it is not. She is pulling a small group of students and teaching them at a higher level, DD is not included (a whole other story), everything they are doing she already knows (they are just now working with decimals at a 5th grade level). Some of the kids in the group were having trouble. They didn't even cover decimals in their "4th grade math" this year.

    The teacher has said DD needs a solid grasp of 4th grade material as "it's her first year in the program". Yet everyone can see what she is teaching has tons of gaps. When we asked about why DD was not included in any enrichment groups we were told "while DD's scores are good, she did not meet the norms". We wondered who decides the norms, we just feel there is alot of bias. DD says her teacher ignores her most of the time and plays favorites.

    As far as enriching at home we do the best we can but this teacher piles on the busywork at night and it is hard for DD to find time. They get a spelling list and have to create 4 copies of the words each week and make them artistic, etc. DD enjoys this and could easily spend hours making hers the most elaborate to try and impress the teacher. Same with endless worksheets. I tell DD to hurry up because I don't feel these activities have value and it's been a challenge. With only a few hours each evening, it is really not pleasant. We all have MAP test fatigue.

    Also, I have trust issues with this teacher. She did not want to provide us a copy of DD's winter score. DH had to send a threatening e-mail. She has stated that math groups were not meeting (when DD said they clearly were and that's how we found out about it). For some materials, she has asked students not to show their parents. She is an OK person, but I don't know if it is pressure from the district to keep students out of the high ability track (DH says it saves them money) or what. I trust very little of what she actually says.

    We have considered moving. My neighbor whose son was in DD's class last year did not return for this year. The district has alot of financial issues and each year has seen more and more cuts. Now they are talking about eliminating music and art which DD said is the only thing that keeps her going at school. DH is not convinced. He believes HS is the most important and has stated he does not want DD going to this high school. If that's the case, is it better to get out at elementary level or wait until after middle school?

    As for this year, I am waiting just a bit to see where this will all end up in the next couple of months as we comb through DesCartes and work with IXL and Khan Academy. DD is quick to catch on and she is getting faster with the busywork. I have captured the "Improvement Plan" and have screenshots. As Indigo said, DH thinks they will remove it too. Perhaps even after this years MAP test results come back. If DD does fall below the cutoff, and we end up staying, we will most likely advocate based upon what Loy58 said about being underchallenged. DD's grades are good.















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    Your DD is lucky you are on top of it - you can make a difference for her.

    I can hear everything you are saying - and we have absolutely been there. Let me clarify: both of my children have different academic "preferences"; that is, one is more of a reader and the other prefers math. It is VERY hard to afterschool in their "nonpreferred" area, and very easy (effortless, almost, as more a matter of providing the right materials) to afterschool in their areas of preference. They are young, though, so they need to be "balanced" students, IMO. Also, I encourage and NEVER force...so sometimes, close to no afterschooling goes on. So if the school program is a terrible mismatch at that point, progress in the non-preferred subject can get stalled, which means it is time to talk to the teacher or school. Also, my older DC gets a great deal of homework, primarily in her G&T classes...so there is little or no time for afterschooling. Right now, they both recently grew a ton in their "preferred" subject, but are slower-growing in their less preferred subject.

    I guess we have gone at it seeing ourselves as partners with the school. I simply would like to see the school take on more of the "heavy-lifting" in terms of paying attention and providing challenge sometimes, KWIM? Some teachers have been better than others, but then again, I think MY KIDDOS are a bit of a challenge since they seem to learn quickly/easily, too...and I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the teachers. Our situation is not ideal, but we are trying to make it work.

    BTW, don't let the winter scores worry you TOO much. DD had an awful winter MAP mid-year check last year...dropped in one area and grew little in another. She really WAS struggling to make progress/underchallenged in the area she dropped IMO, but she grew 20+ points in the other area by spring. She continued to steadily grow since then, because I have worked with her while working with the school.

    HTH! None of this is easy, as it really causes a parent to worry...hugs to you!!!

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    As far as 4th grade math goes, I don't know that I would quantify what they are doing as really teaching 4th grade math.

    DD uses IXL and the number of topics covered in 4th grade explodes compared to the earlier grades. Her teacher so far has taught 7 topics. Most I would consider either 3rd or 4th grade:
    * Rounding
    * Multiplication (3 digit x 2 digit max)
    * Division (3 digit divided by 1 digit)
    * Area and Perimeter (of basic squares and compound rectangles)
    * Measuring Angles
    * Quadrilaterals
    * Lastly, they are just now moving into fractions

    When I look at IXL, a lot of these skills are covered in earlier grades so I feel they are not really an acceleration. For instance, the class took 1 1/2 months to cover area and perimeter. Not triangles or trapezoids, just squares and rectangles. IXL has this popping up in 2nd grade skills. Alot of time wasted. Where they are starting just now at the end of the year is where I feel DD should have started at the beginning of the year. If she had done so, I believe we would have seen growth.

    ... these skills don't match up with NWEA's flier which shows examples of math problems by RIT band. For 221-230 DD needs to know operations of integers, consumer math (percents, interest, etc.), algebraic expressions, calculating means, etc. When I look at IXL, these are all more 5th/6th grade problems. They don't show up in 4th grade.
    If you choose to meet with the principal regarding his published support for meeting MAP targets, this might be important information to also bring along.

    Quote
    teacher... pulling a small group of students and teaching them at a higher level, DD is not included... we were told "while DD's scores are good, she did not meet the norms". We wondered who decides the norms...
    You may wish to ask what the norms are, to add to your collection of facts and information.

    Quote
    We have considered moving. My neighbor whose son was in DD's class last year did not return for this year. The district has alot of financial issues and each year has seen more and more cuts. Now they are talking about eliminating music and art which DD said is the only thing that keeps her going at school. DH is not convinced. He believes HS is the most important and has stated he does not want DD going to this high school. If that's the case, is it better to get out at elementary level or wait until after middle school?
    Some may say it is best to seek another learning environment when the current learning environment is not a good fit.

    It may be time to begin printing articles from the Davidson Database such as Basic educational options for gifted children and Choosing the right school for your gifted child. Also chapter 14 of the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children covers Finding a Good Educational Fit. This includes a list of questions by Dr. Donald Treffinger. His list is also found on online at the website of Center for Creative Learning (CCL), as “Dear School People”.

    Looking at other possible education options can spark ideas for new approaches with one's existing learning environment.

    Wishing you all the best.

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