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    #209614 01/25/15 11:18 AM
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    mom2one Offline OP
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    After a very long wait and extensive testing, I finally have the scores for my child.

    He has very high verbal and high perceptual reasoning scores, but his processing speed is low. His verbal is 138, and his processing speed is 88. Is it normal to have such a large variation ?

    Also, the neuropsych has adminstered a test called Beery Buktenica Developmental Test of Visual Motor Intergration and he scored 88 (which is very low). No further recommendations were given based on this test. What (if anything) should I be doing to remediate this ?

    Should I also request a GAI score, in addition to the FSIQ score ?

    His WJ scores are as follows. What does age equivalent mean ? Can I translate these scores to saying " 1 in ____ number of kids have this score, similar to what can be done for verbal, WM, Processing, Perceptual Reasoning ?"

    What do these age equivalents mean in the context of WJ scores ?

    Broad Reading Age Equiv Standard Score
    Broad Reading 11-9 133
    Letter Word
    Identification 12-11 138
    Reading fluency 11-5 140
    Passage Comprehension 10-2 123

    Spelling 17-0 152

    Broad Math 10-8 158
    Calculations 10-10 159
    Math fluency 8-8 126
    Applied problems 11-7 144
    Math Calc Skills 10-3 153

    DS is 7 years 2 months at the time of testing.

    I'll also start another thread for his accomodations. I'll probably also edit his scores at a later date.

    Any help is greatly appreciated

    Last edited by mom2one; 01/25/15 11:28 AM.
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    I'm on my phone so can't reply in detail at the moment, but it would be helpful to have subtest scores for the processing speed subtests and also the Beery (there are two parts to the Beery).

    Did they administer the writing portion of the WJ-iii?

    polarbear

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    aeh Offline
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    Originally Posted by mom2one
    After a very long wait and extensive testing, I finally have the scores for my child.

    He has very high verbal and high perceptual reasoning scores, but his processing speed is low. ...Is it normal to have such a large variation ?
    It's fairly rare in the standardization sample.
    Quote
    Also, the neuropsych has adminstered a test called Beery Buktenica Developmental Test of Visual Motor Intergration and he scored ...(which is very low). No further recommendations were given based on this test. What (if anything) should I be doing to remediate this ?
    This is a fine motor task, copying drawings with a pencil. In combination with the low PSI, I would suspect a perceptual-motor issue. I second pb's question about the supplementary tests. Did the npsych do the tasks that separate motor and visual?
    Quote
    Should I also request a GAI score, in addition to the FSIQ score ?
    Yes.
    Quote
    His WJ scores are as follows. What does age equivalent mean ? Can I translate these scores to saying " 1 in ____ number of kids have this score, similar to what can be done for verbal, WM, Processing, Perceptual Reasoning ?"
    Not the age-equivalents. I've mentioned before that ae scores are specifically not recommended by APA and NASP, the two primary professional organizations that house psychological examiners. The standard scores OTOH, are transformations of z scores, so they can easily be converted to percentiles, which will give you the "DC did better than x out of 100 other children his age did on this task."
    Quote
    What do these age equivalents mean in the context of WJ scores ?
    AEs in general mean that this child received the same raw score as the 50th %ile of children this age did. They certainly do not mean that this child can appropriately be placed in instructional settings designed for children this age.
    Quote
    Broad Reading
    Letter Word Identification
    Reading fluency
    Passage Comprehension
    On a par with his VCI, generally.
    Quote
    Spelling

    Broad Math
    Calculations
    A little higher than I would usually expect based on his VCI.
    Quote
    Math fluency
    Probably affected by the same factors that lowered his PSI, as this is a timed fine-motor task, in addition to being a test of arithmetic fluency. Reading fluency would not be as affected, as the fine-motor response consists only of circling/marking Y or N.
    Quote
    Applied problems
    Up there with his VCI, possibly partially reflective of language comprehension.
    Quote
    Math Calc Skills
    Cluster based on Calculations and Math Fluency.

    Question for you: What did his PRI subtests look like? Was Block Design, by any chance, lower than the other two? This is a timed visual-motor task, though not so fine-motor, and is often affected by the same factors that might be expected to lower PSI, the Beery VMI, and WJ Math Fluency. I'm wondering if his PRI is a low estimate of his actual perceptual reasoning/nonverbal reasoning abilities. How was the WMI?


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    DD did the WISC IV at 8 years 0 months and her processing speed score was 94, with her GAI at 150, so that was a large gap. She was re-tested for just processing speed 13 months later and it had jumped 21 points. Still a large gap, but not as alarming. It probably still can change a lot when kids are tested so young. I wouldn't worry about the processing speed unless you see symptoms of slow processing speed, like poor fluency or slowness with classroom work. DD has been in piano lessons for close to a year and I think that might have helped boost her processing speed, since it's probably unusual to jump 21 points.

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    aeh Offline
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    Percentiles of the WJ scores, in the order you listed them:
    98.6
    99.4
    99.6
    93.7

    >99.9

    >99.9
    >99.9
    95.8
    99.8
    >99.9

    So these range from, "he did better than 94 out of 100 other children his age would be expected to do on this task", to above "he did better than 999 out of 1000 other children his age would be expected to do." Or, in the terminology you used, "6 out of 100 children his age have this score," up to "less than 1 child out of 1000 his age scores this well."


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    I don't know if this has been addressed or not before (I didn't see it on your other post), but I'd suggest taking your ds to a behavioral/developmental optometrist to tease out the visual issues.

    My ds9 was born with visual deficits. He had vision therapy between 4-6 yrs old. He also was in neurofeedback between 6-8 yrs old. Last Dec, I had his visual skills re-assessed based on an expert's advice. The behavioral/developmental optometrist administered a battery of tests and pinpointed my son's visual deficits further - mainly due to his age.

    A 'good' behavioral/developmental optometrist should be able to better pinpoint that visual integration score of 88. At the moment, I can't say if it's due to closure issues (ie. having the idea to make a paper lantern but being unable to discriminate where the cuts go or out to finish making it) or something else.

    A 'good' behavioral/developmental optometrist should be able to dissect where the stumbling block is for your ds. In our case, it made a world of difference. I can better understand how my ds9 has trouble manipulating objects (ie. paper lantern) in his head, how to sequence, and execute making something, for instance. It's NOT about achievement or IQ, but how his brain is actually wired and works. It's quite possible with your ds that he can easily flip or manipulate numbers internally in his head with his visual cortex like my ds9, but struggles doing it with other objects or things in life.

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    Originally Posted by cdfox
    I don't know if this has been addressed or not before (I didn't see it on your other post), but I'd suggest taking your ds to a behavioral/developmental optometrist to tease out the visual issues.

    Quote
    A 'good' behavioral/developmental optometrist should be able to better pinpoint that visual integration score of 88.

    This depends on whether or not it's a visual challenge - the Beery VMI tests visual-motor integration, so the root issue could be visual or it could be fine motor. Knowing what the subtest score range is on the WISC processing and having the info on both Beery VMI subtests will help clarify if the low score (88) on the Beery is due to a visual challenge or a fine motor challenge.

    If it's due to a fine motor challenge, seeing a developmental optometrist won't help.

    polarbear

    ps - I've had kids with low Beery scores for *both* reasons - one fine motor and one visual. I'm a *huge* fan of developmental optometrists, so please don't think I was saying don't go to a developmental optometrist, I was only pointing out that there might be a different cause, and it wouldn't be worth time/$ to see a developmental optometrist if the issue is fine-motor related.

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    mom2one Offline OP
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    Thanks so much for all the responses. Much appreciated.

    Quote
    I'm on my phone so can't reply in detail at the moment, but it would be helpful to have subtest scores for the processing speed subtests and also the Beery (there are two parts to the Beery).

    Did they administer the writing portion of the WJ-iii?

    polarbear

    The Beery portion states this: The Visual Motor Integration task involves copying a series of designs of increasing complexity. His score is 88 on the VMI, which falls in the Below Average range, and he is better than approximately 21% of the same age peers.

    I looked at the report and it does not separate visual and motor.

    Aeh, thanks. I found your wording very helpful. Also, a related question on the WJ -- in general, do kids usually score their age equivalent or higher on the WJ ? I am not asking from a grade-skip perspective ; I am asking more from the perspective of some enrichment in class. Should I even be asking for this (the report does recommend that his abilities be taken into consideration), given his low processing speed ?

    His PRI scores were as follows:

    Block Design :12
    Picture Concepts: 14
    Matrix Reasoning :16

    So, yes, block design was lower than the other 2. How did you infer this ?

    Processing Speed was the lowest

    Coding : 7
    Symbol Search : 9

    Quote
    I wouldn't worry about the processing speed unless you see symptoms of slow processing speed, like poor fluency or slowness with classroom work. DD has been in piano lessons for close to a year and I think that might have helped boost her processing speed, since it's probably unusual to jump 21 points.

    Blackcat, at school, he does very well on fluency based tests. However, he is very slow with classroom work. For example, if there is a page on math and if he has to color bears (who have numbers on them) (for example) based on the result of the math problems -- he takes very little time to solve the math question; it takes him forever to color the appropriate numbered bear. For most kids, if anything, it would take them much longer to do the math, than to color. He does do much better with a timer, though sometimes he does get stressed out with the timer.

    cdfox, I haven't taken my child to the developmental optometrist yet. I am actually not sure what to do about the Beery VMI scores.

    Quote
    ps - I've had kids with low Beery scores for *both* reasons - one fine motor and one visual. I'm a *huge* fan of developmental optometrists, so please don't think I was saying don't go to a developmental optometrist, I was only pointing out that there might be a different cause, and it wouldn't be worth time/$ to see a developmental optometrist if the issue is fine-motor related.

    The report elsewhere states this - his low performance on Beery VMI may be suggestive of mild fine motor difficulties or attempts at perfectionism.

    So, piecing together various parts of the report, should I be requesting the school for an OT assessment ? Or should I be pursuing this on my own (through a private OT practice)?

    The neuropsych was iffy on dysgraphia as he has legible writing, but I still wonder about it sometimes.

    Also, regarding the writing test, the neuropsych evaluated his writing on the WJ and found it superior (but that was mostly spelling which he excels at, as well as some writing prompt that was super easy for him)

    I was actually expecting something similar to the Test of Written Language to be administered; should I be requesting this of the school instead ?

    Again, thanks so much.

    Last edited by mom2one; 01/26/15 01:59 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mom2one
    Also, a related question on the WJ -- in general, do kids usually score their age equivalent or higher on the WJ ? I am not asking from a grade-skip perspective ; I am asking more from the perspective of some enrichment in class. Should I even be asking for this (the report does recommend that his abilities be taken into consideration), given his low processing speed ?
    In general, children score in a range around their age equivalent. The distance in age equivalents from the average child's performance is quite variable in terms of skill differences, as different skills have different growth curves and different ages. For instance, word attack (phonetic decoding) has a very steep developmental curve in the early elementary ages, when children are learning to read. By the time you reach early adolescence, the vast majority of children have plateaued in terms of word attack, and are just working on broadening their vocabulary. So a one or two age equivalent difference can be huge when you are seven years old, but is really rather negligible at age 14. To look at enrichment, I would actually prefer the RPI, a score which looks like #/90, where the first number is this child's RPI for this task, and the /90 represents 90% mastery in the index population (age, in this case). This is an indication of the difficulty level. If a child scores above 90/90 (95/90 is the technical cut-off), this predicts that they would find quite easy tasks that the average child performs at a mastery level (90% accurate). These do not always vary at the same rate as the SS or age equivalent, though they will all line up right at the population mean (SS 100, AE = your child's age, RPI 90/90).

    This may be more information than you were looking for. smile
    Quote
    So, yes, block design was lower than the other 2. How did you infer this ?
    Block Design is a hands-on timed task, unlike the other two PRI subtests, which are neither timed nor hands-on. My experience with students with low PSI, especially if fine motor is a suspected issue, is that the loss of bonus points for speed (i.e., a child who may be slow but accurate) artificially lowers the BD scaled score. When it is sufficiently marked, I sometimes substitute, or supplement the interpretation, with the extra Picture Completion subtest, which is timed, but motor-free.
    Quote
    ...he does very well on fluency based tests. However, he is very slow with classroom work. For example, if there is a page on math and if he has to color bears (who have numbers on them) (for example) based on the result of the math problems -- he takes very little time to solve the math question; it takes him forever to color the appropriate numbered bear. For most kids, if anything, it would take them much longer to do the math, than to color. He does do much better with a timer, though sometimes he does get stressed out with the timer.
    Do you mean that he does well with fluency when the responses are oral, motor, written, or some combination thereof? Your example suggests that his retrieval fluency is good (oral recall of math facts), but that his written fluency is not (even for a nonsymbolic task like coloring). The coloring story and the high matrix reasoning score together suggest that it is more of a motor issue than a visual or perceptual issue.
    Quote
    So, piecing together various parts of the report, should I be requesting the school for an OT assessment ? Or should I be pursuing this on my own (through a private OT practice)?
    You may pursue OT assessment through either avenue. Just make sure that future assessors have access to past testing, so they don't just give him another VMI (aka Beery) (sans subtests), and call it a day. You want to see the BOT, or some such.
    Quote
    The neuropsych was iffy on dysgraphia as he has legible writing, but I still wonder about it sometimes.
    As you should. Some children generate legible handwriting at great cost to effort and attention, which can detract significantly from their ability to generate, in particular, quality written language products.
    Quote
    Also, regarding the writing test, the neuropsych evaluated his writing on the WJ and found it superior (but that was mostly spelling which he excels at, as well as some writing prompt that was super easy for him)

    I was actually expecting something similar to the Test of Written Language to be administered; should I be requesting this of the school instead ?
    Yes. The WJ is one of my least favorite writing assessments. The only really good thing about it is the writing fluency subtest. (I guess I find value in the phoneme/grapheme knowledge subtest, too, but so few examiners administer it that it's benefits are rarely felt.) The written expression tasks are very limited, requiring only a few words in response, especially at this age. Please hunt down someone to give him the TOWL-4, or the writing portion of the PAL-2, which would actually be my top choice for a child of this age.

    Last edited by aeh; 01/26/15 02:50 PM. Reason: VMI = Beery = Beery Buktenica Test of Visual Motor Integration

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    You could certainly ask the school for an OT assessment, especially if it's free, and see how far you get. If your insurance covers an OT assessment, then that might be something to consider as well.

    I understand what Polarbear is saying; however, writing involves eye-hand coordination as well as motor skills. At this point it seems difficult to determine what is going on. Perfectionism and a 7-yr-olds in general who may not always be motivated to perform to their abilities may also be factors here.

    So you might try to rule out/in other factors first before going to a behavioral/developmental optometrist.

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    Quote
    This may be more information than you were looking for. smile

    Aeh, thanks very much. Your information is super helpful. I think I will atleast start by requesting enrichment for math and see how it goes.

    Quote
    Do you mean that he does well with fluency when the responses are oral, motor, written, or some combination thereof? Your example suggests that his retrieval fluency is good (oral recall of math facts), but that his written fluency is not (even for a nonsymbolic task like coloring). The coloring story and the high matrix reasoning score together suggest that it is more of a motor issue than a visual or perceptual issue.

    He does well orally, as well as does well on written tests (as long as he is aware it is a test). He does not care so much about in-class work; he seems to need more time, and he does do it within the day.

    Quote
    You may pursue OT assessment through either avenue. Just make sure that future assessors have access to past testing, so they don't just give him another VMI (aka Beery) (sans subtests), and call it a day. You want to see the BOT, or some such.

    What is the BOT ? Yes, I will definitely show them the report (if it is done through the school or through an outside OT).

    Quote
    Please hunt down someone to give him the TOWL-4, or the writing portion of the PAL-2, which would actually be my top choice for a child of this age.

    This is again super helpful. Thanks.

    Quote
    As you should. Some children generate legible handwriting at great cost to effort and attention, which can detract significantly from their ability to generate, in particular, quality written language products.

    The thing that makes me wonder is when I present a sentence and ask him to generate ideas based on that sentence, he has no problems coming up with ideas, and is able to put together a coherent story. When it comes to physically writing those ideas on paper, he struggles some (before, it was horrible. Now it is a little better, but I still see a very large variation between oral and written output).

    Quote
    You could certainly ask the school for an OT assessment, especially if it's free, and see how far you get. If your insurance covers an OT assessment, then that might be something to consider as well.

    Thanks, cdfox. Yes, I will ask for this when we meet with the school. I am a little scared they may say no. He is also very terrible at tying shoelaces.

    A general question -- do you think it makes sense to have the school to do some sort of pre-testing, esp for math and spelling ? The school has sort of said they can give 4 digit subtraction instead of 2 digit subtraction, for enrichment. My child told me that it is still not really learning anything, except showing over and over again that he can do it; he did a 11 digit subtraction question he made up, to show he can do it with regrouping and without regrouping and a combination thereof. Any ideas how they can enrich ? (I don't know that they'll let him do independent learning by himself on the computer)


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    The BOT = Bruininks-Oseretsky Test of Motor Proficiency, 2nd edition

    http://www.pearsonclinical.com/ther...cy-second-edition-bot2.html?Pid=PAa58000


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