Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Single Subject Accel - Pre or regular Algebra

Seeking opinions/thoughts - My DS 11 taking 7th/8th grade combo math currently. I think the natural next step is Algebra I, our school thinks he should take Pre-Algebra first. I can't see any good reason to slow him down. Thoughts?

I would think only getting B's would be a reason in slowing him down.

Our #1 went from 7th grade math to algebra I, at the teacher's recommendation, without any noticeable dip in performance, or pesky skill gaps appearing.

I would suggest algebra placement/readiness testing as a more objective measure of his readiness for algebra I vs pre-algebra.

ETA: I meant to add that the teacher did algebra readiness testing of every member of the sixth, seventh, and eighth grades, and placed students into seventh grade math, eighth grade math, pre-algebra, or algebra I accordingly.

I would look at the list of skills/topics in both classes side by side...maybe ask to look at the text books and sit with the teachers and see how much overlap there is.

My gifted son did honors sixth grade math,pre algebra 7th,and algebra 8th grade.
He didn't do 7th grade math at all.

But different classes are called pre algebra...sometimes pre algebra is just a way to slow down students who aren't ready for algebra and give them lots of practice with the basic concepts of algebra so they can successfully complete algebra...so it is designed for those not really good in math.

Other times pre algebra is consolidates all that middle school math and gets advanced younger students ready for algebra.

Sometimes it is completely necessary and sometime not so much and sometime it doesn't hurt...I think it depends on your child and the content of the class.

ETA. My younger son will be taking a different track next year (it is new) a special class in sixth grade and then algebra in 7th. So whatever he is taking will cover a consolidation of 6/7/pre algebra/whatever he needs before algebra. If that had been available for my older son he would have done that.

Agreed-- I would look at what those grades are based upon, and what is keeping them B's and not A's.

In most middle school settings, that would (to me) indicate that mastery isn't quite there with the material. That is, understanding is "solid" but it might not be truly mastery.

Looking at the scope and sequence-- and texts, if you can-- for all three courses would be my suggestion. Look at what is covered by the course the student is taking now, what would be covered by pre-algebra, and what is expected of students in Algebra I.

It might be fine in light of the student's history, but there are going to be a lot of small contributing things to consider.

Is this a public school? Does it use common core standards? Is the standard 8th grade math "pre-algebra"? Because common core has redefined what material is covered in 8th grade math & algebra it's hard to tell you what to recommend without more details.

I agree with the posts that you really want mastery in algebra before moving on. I think you need to take a good look at what the curriculum in the pre-algebra class, vs his current class and the algebra class. I also would look at what is keeping the grades B's.

Our school district has Algebra readiness tests (some kind of standardized test). Does your school have any information on those?

Cookie - I like the idea of looking at the skills side by side. I hadn't thought of that. It might give me more of an idea of what would be best. All the students will take a readiness test of sorts, but it's not standardized and still in it's trial phase (common core)

Bluemagic - Public school/common core which is part of my struggle to decide. So many changes to the curriculum.

I would check out the Bs. Is he forgetting homework, being dragged down by group work, making careless mistakes, bored etc. You may need to work on non maths skills. On the other hand Bs are perfectly respectable marks but not for skipping a year.

Agreed.It always seems easier to blame the school or take a test instead of resolving the real problem.

Ok then.. let try to explain the changes to common core. A LOT of kids who are currently in junior high math right now are getting caught in these changes. I've been involved as a parents in trying to fix the mess of this our district made this past year.

Common Core Math officially doesn't spiral, and this means the official line is that no skipping should ever occur. The plan is for smarter/faster math students to take "compressed" classes. The official line is that students shouldn't be compressed to junior high. (I don't agree with this.) 7th & 8th grade math are integrated math and that means they include a bit of pre-algebra & pre-geometry. I use the term pre to mean material to get you ready to take what used to the the H.S. algebra & geometry class for lack of a better word.

CC 7th grade math - pre-algebra, pre-gemoetry, other topics..

CC 8th grade math -- pre-algebra & pre-geomentry topics, ~4 chapters Algebra, ~2 Chapters of geometry. This includes algebra topics up through solving systems of equations in two variables.

CC Algebra - Assumes you have had 8th grade CC, includes a few chapters from what used to be Algebra II. -- starts assuming students can already do some basic algebra.

This web-page on Kahn Accademy site shows a good break down on what is covered each grade level of Common Core Math through 8th grade. It's a bit confusing for High School though.

https://www.khanacademy.org/commoncore/map

Before Common Core the push was for all 8th grades to take Algebra, so this is actually a push for the average student to start Algebra topics a semester later.

This begs the question of what topics are in this "Pre-Algebra" class the school is recommending to you. (I am very frustrated with all these names.) If your son is in a 7th/8th grade class right now this is probably an compacted common core class trying to fit 2 years of math topics in one year. One possibility is your school district is having similar "transition" problems that ours is having and it's possible this pre-algebra class is a temporary one because they have identified a whole cohort of kids that don't appear ready to take next years Algebra class. I would ask questions. Who else will be in this class? Will they finish the topics from the CC 8th grade class this year. What grades will he have to get in this "pre-algebra" class to get into algebra the next year.

Is he bored in math right now or challenged? What is keeping his grade down?

I hope this helps.

Bluemagic - I think you hit it exactly. We are in such a transition time that everyone is confused. Our 7/8 is supposed to be the entire curriculum in one year, but it's not all going to be covered. And yes, some of the 7/8 is already pre-algebra so that is why I'm questioning it. If he takes pre-algebra will he actually be taking the same skills twice? I'm going to get a skills list for each one and I bet that will help make a better decision.

On the grades - I'd say his grade is mostly due to rushing and making careless errors. He's smart and he doesn't always pay attention to details. As he gets older he's a lot less "Squirrel", but he has his moments

Sounds familiar. (And for the record, my DD is in college. And math is one of her majors.)

Portia.. I agree with you about the grades. I was this way and so is my son. I got B's if I was in honors or non-honors. thus I was better off in the honors class because I'd then get the +1 point in H.S. and I was a lot happier because I was more challenged.

What I'm concerned is this case is that this is an area of flux for the common core requirements and setting up math classes. And to do well in math in the future one needs s good grounding in Algebra. Skipping basic Algebra seems a bad idea.

One option could be to learn that particular material over the summer and go on to the Algebra class. There is no reason that material must be learned during the school years.

I have to admit if you do get around to listing the different curricula, I'd be interested in a followup post. I'm having trouble imagining how 7/8 grade math would substantially differ from pre-algebra

Read my post. Common Core has changed the name of the game. Common Core Grade 8 is about HALF Algebra.

What I don't understand is how you go from the 8th grade CC class, to one called Pre-Algebra. Thus the reason to investigate what these titles really mean.

As always, this forum has given me much to think about. I've email my state for their opinion on what pre-algebra skills versus algebra will be and I'm going to see if I can get a list from for our school specifically. Thanks all!

UPDATE - I made some inquiries as to what exactly Pre-Algebra is in my area and it seems Common Core has left a bit of confusion.

According to the state pre-algebra is certain strands of 7th and 8th grade math.

According to the district it's certain strands of 6th, 7th, & 8th grade math.

According to our school, pre-algebra is 8th grade math.

My DS took 6th grade math last year with a GT teacher and he's taking 7th & 8th grade math this year with a regular education teacher. So..... no matter whose definition you use, taking pre-algebra next year would be repeating skills.

Blue magic, if middle math is integrated now, does that mean high school math will be, too?!

Not necessary. The CA standards(*) state that districts/H.S. are allowed to choose either an integrated model (Math 1, Math 2, Math 3) or a traditional one. (Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2). I know of a county wide magnet school that offers both. The classes cover the same material but in a slightly different order. These courses assumes that you have taken Common Core 8 and already have some basic algebra & geometry to start. Basic trig is covered in this sequence. And common core standards only go through Algebra 2, although Algebra 2 includes some topics that used to be in Pre-Calculus. If you moved from a school that teachers one model to one that teacher the other there would be material missed.

The officially(*) approved way to accelerate kids is to offer 'compressed' courses and the details are left to the district. For example districts are looking at Grade 7/Grade8/Algebra 1(or Math 1) over 7th & 8th grade. It certainly helps if the junior high & H.S coordinate.

I've heard that some large districts in the state are going to insist that ALL students take the "grade level" course (ie.. all 9th graders take Algebra 1) no matter if they have previously taken the course or not. Not sure how long that will last.

(*) I'm framing this from the CA state standards because I basing this frorm CA state dept of education documents. I can't guarantee that they are options in other states.

I'm a little confused about the math that the school offers. In plenty of schools (common from what I hear on this forum), a kid advanced to the highest middle school math course would be in Geometry. Pre-algebra is the "normal" advanced 6th grade course.

Our district does not give credit for HS classes taken in MS, but most kids have enough courses at the HS that they do not need to go to college courses. There are always some in HS that have finished all the math courses, so they attend a local college. We are lucky that there are three four-year colleges within a mile of the HS.

Are there other kids at his school like him (or at least kids ready to be advanced by a few years in a few subjects)? In our district, there are plenty of kids who could have skipped a year or two of school. Those kids are mostly bored in K-8. However, they deal with it, and having other kids like them makes it more bearable. Most parents of bright kids in our district agree that there aren't any challenging courses until HS.

Just keep doing what you are doing by supplementing at home, and get the kiddo involved in other activities. Our family likes sports, and my college kid still plays one sport competitively. If sports aren't his thing, it can be music, scouts, community projects, etc. Keep the kiddo busy.

Waaaah! Maybe we'll just hack school. If they can't even integrate math, there's no chance of high school science becoming integrated, is there?

(by this I mean studying each science alongside the others so you progress in biology at the same rate as in chemistry and in chemistry at the same rate as in physics).

My 11 year old 6th grader went from 5th grade math to Honors algebra 1 after passing a series of algebra readiness tests. She is doing just fine, and will take geometry in 7th grade.

MommaBear, your son may be ready to go straight into Algebra. I'm not sure it's wise skip Pre Algebra though. It's a tougher course than Algebra 1. Some high school students take Algebra 1 and Geometry concurrently or Geometry and Algebra 2 concurrently. The goal for a future scientist is to take Calculus in high school. It's best if he/she can get two years of it. That's why the whole Common Core movement is so frustrating. It's a top down approach. Some school districts offer Calc 3 and beyond in high school others don't offer Calc at all.