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    PanzerAzelSaturn
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    My son is going through transition to K testing with the IU. I have expressed interest in an IQ test, but they "don't see the need." I have been a little worried they won't do a good job even if they do test him because every test they give just seems to be to prove he has no delay, not to look for higher than average skills. My son has a very mild ASD diagnosis and is 4 years old, 5 in February. He is very academically gifted in relation to his peers.

    The IU did do a speech assessment using Celfp-2.

    Just some background: When he was 2.5 my son was given the PLS-5 at the dev peds who originally did his diagnostic work. At that time he scored 115 receptive (84th %tile/age equivalent 3.4) and 142 expressive (99th %tile/age equivalent 4.3). They diagnosed him with Mixed receptive expressive language disorder (as well as the ASD) due to "an unusual pattern of language development marked by expressive language skills that exceed receptive language skills."

    I'm gonna copy/paste from the new assessment and just pop DS in for his name:

    "The Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals, Preschool Edition (CELFP-2) was administered to assess DS's receptive and expressive language skills and his pragmatic language skills. Overall, he scored in the average to above-average range on his overall core language skills (he received a Standard Score of 110, with 100 being the mean, with 85-115 being the average range), indicating average overall language functioning. All scores on the subtests were in the average or above average range as well. DS demonstrated good knowledge of basic concepts (attributes, size, locations, quantity, sequence), sentence structure (prepositions, verb conditions,
    passive construction, clauses), expressive vocabulary (naming), and word structure (grammatical rules, morphology). He was able to follow complex, multi-step directions and repeat sentences without difficulty. On these subtests (Concepts and Following Directions and Recalling Sentences), he received above-average standard scores of 14 and 18, respectively, indicating advanced auditory memory and language comprehension skills (a score of 10 is average on the subtests).
    On the Descriptive Pragmatics Profile rating of the CELFP-2, DS scored a 54 on the clinician's rating form, which is below the criterion level of 70. This indicates that despite average to above-average language skills, DS is having some difficulty using language to interact with others. He demonstrates inconsistency in responding to peers' attempts at
    conversation and some unwillingness to initiate with peers."

    Later in the document it lists the subtest scores:

    CELF Preschool-2
    On the subtests, 10 is an average score. A score of six or less is below average. A score of 14 or above is above average. On the Index scores, 100 is the mean, with a score of 85-115 as average.
    SUBTEST SCORES
    Sentence Structure: 12 (average)
    Word Structure: 13 (average)
    Expressive Vocabulary: 10 (average)
    Concepts and Following Directions: 14 (above average)
    Recalling Sentences: 18 (above average)
    Basic Concepts: 9 (above average)
    INDEX SCORES
    Core Language: 110 (average)
    Receptive Language: 117 (above average)
    Expressive Language: 121 (above average)
    Language Content: 112 (average)
    Language Structure: 125 (above average)
    Testing indicates DS is demonstrating average to above
    average receptive and expressive language functioning.
    Descriptive Pragmatics Profile
    Criterion Level: >=70
    Clinician rating: 54; below criterion score

    What confuses me is that at 2 and a half his language was pretty much at 4 year old level and at 4 it's still testing at the same level? Is this difference due to the 2 different tests being used? It's not like his language development has remained stagnant. It has not. Oddly other quotes from the evaluation include:

    "When DS is speaking with peers, much of his
    conversation is one-sided. It revolves around restricted topics that interest him, such as mazes, numbers/math, games he invents involving "levels", and computer-related topics.
    When peers are talking to him about a non-preferred topic, DS will often be unwilling to engage with them. Often, DS's peers do not seem to grasp what he is talking about, either because they cannot follow his train of thought, or they are unfamiliar with his vocabulary, which is advanced for his age."

    "DS is able to incorporate new, less familiar or technical words into his everyday conversations and he uses
    long, complex sentences in his speech."

    I find it odd that with those comments his score on expressive vocabulary was 100% average. Also, I spoke to the speech teacher after the assessment and he said DS wanted to continue with the test but was told he had to stop because the next section was for kindergarten kids. This almost sounds like they just tested to a certain point and stopped? I know that on the PLS-5 (which we were able to see being administered) they kept going till he got 3 wrong in a row. Which he never did, he completed the whole test, which amazed everyone on the team there. They were especially amazed because he appeared to not even be paying attention to the test and ran around the room while they tried to grab his attention as needed to answer questions.

    In the past the IU administered the Battelle Developmental Inventory second edition (BDI II), a cognitive scale) at 2 years 11 months and gave an "estimated standard score" of 95, average being 100. This was administered by a certified school psychologist. I was able to watch the test. It honestly was just some baby stuff, stacking blocks, using a graduated ring stacker, drawing a line, etc. He did not get any items incorrect, and the test was ended after just a few activities. At the time he was a beginning reader, able to do simple math, knew tons of shapes, all of his states, did 60 piece puzzles, and loved mazes. How can you accurately assess intelligence if you don't even get close to the level the child is at?

    I know this is probably a rambling mess, but I'm just trying to make sense of everything. It is hard to understand how the IU can just dismiss all of our concerns and call everything my son does well a "splinter skill". Everyone who knows him, including his teachers, are amazed by how smart he is. We talk to him like an adult and he totally gets everything that we say to him and responds like any other adult conversation partner. He picks up on the meaning of adult conversation around him to an amazing degree. There is nothing he doesn't seem to be able to understand. He loves to read and tell stories and build amazing things and draw complex mazes with "tons and tons and tons of dead ends!"

    I'm not one to insist my son is intellectually gifted. I think he is 100% academically gifted right now. This may even out as time goes by, I can't predict the future. I expect he will have strong areas and weak areas like most people. But I can't help feeling like the IU is not really trying. Like they don't really care. I sometimes feel like they don't want him to be able to perform at a certain level. On his first IEP they listed his language skills as "above age appropriate", which honestly sounds like a bad thing. Now I am faced with insisting they do an IQ test and risking a bad one or just going private and paying a ton to get a quality, accurate assessment. So, any thought on all of this?

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    Hi Panzer,

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    On the Descriptive Pragmatics Profile rating of the CELFP-2, DS scored a 54 on the clinician's rating form, which is below the criterion level of 70. This indicates that despite average to above-average language skills, DS is having some difficulty using language to interact with others. He demonstrates inconsistency in responding to peers' attempts at
    conversation and some unwillingness to initiate with peers."

    That is very characteristic of a gifted child with ASD. The standards for what is age-appropriate change a lot over time; deficits can become more evident as the child grows and their social language use looks atypical with respect to what peers can do.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    "When DS is speaking with peers, much of his
    conversation is one-sided. It revolves around restricted topics that interest him, such as mazes, numbers/math, games he invents involving "levels", and computer-related topics.
    When peers are talking to him about a non-preferred topic, DS will often be unwilling to engage with them. Often, DS's peers do not seem to grasp what he is talking about, either because they cannot follow his train of thought, or they are unfamiliar with his vocabulary, which is advanced for his age."

    A couple of things here:
    --looks very, very like my 2E DS12 (PG/autism) at that age

    --failure to adjust register to suit audience is characteristic ASD. That is, noticing that there are things you can talk to an adult scientist about that you cannot talk to a preschooler about. It's a lack of awareness of what's in other people's heads. This skill will probably come if you work on it.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I find it odd that with those comments his score on expressive vocabulary was 100% average. Also, I spoke to the speech teacher after the assessment and he said DS wanted to continue with the test but was told he had to stop because the next section was for kindergarten kids. This almost sounds like they just tested to a certain point and stopped?

    Likely. I don't know the mechanics of this test, but preschool testing is generally like that. Each test comes with its own distinct "stop criteria."

    Have you ever done a neuropsych workup privately? Could be useful, if you find someone who can handle the idea that you have to test out-of-grade-level to capture the complexity of the child.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    How can you accurately assess intelligence if you don't even get close to the level the child is at?

    You can't. But if the IU people are screening for disabilities (only), they're not looking for an accurate IQ, they're looking for deficits.

    I will also say that IQ and achievement scores for young kids wiht ASD can be compromised by the lack of social skills. They tend to go up and become more coherent as the ASD social communication deficits are remediated.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    It is hard to understand how the IU can just dismiss all of our concerns and call everything my son does well a "splinter skill".

    Again, your child is far outside of what they normally deal with. And yes, it's VERY ANNOYING. I wish we could get rid of the term "splinter skill" and instead talk about "skills." Because you are entirely right that these strengths can be used to his advantage.

    Advice:
    --call a reputable children's hospital autism center and get on the waiting list for a full neuropsych workup. Ask them what funding options there are. Sometimes a county will pick up diagnostic testing fees. Sometimes they will work with your insurance.

    --*DO* use the IU's information about speech/language to get help from a SLP specializing in pragmatic language. It took us years to get this into place because it was hard to find someone. Proper social language use is a learnable skill and prevents a lot of problems in school if it can be worked on early.

    DeeDee

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    I'll start by noting that the two instruments are not directly comparable, as they have somewhat different functions, and fairly different formats. This cut sheet compares the two:

    http://images.pearsonclinical.com/images/assets/celfpreschool-2/PLS-5-CELF-5_Comparison.pdf

    Secondly, the purpose of this kind of evaluation is, in fact, to identify deficits in need of remediation. It is not to define the above-average strengths of the child. This is why the tests are all designed to prove that he either is or is not delayed in some area. That we often find that children are advanced in some area is kind of a handy side effect, but still incidental. Once children reach school-age, aims start to change a bit, depending on how a school system interprets "free and appropriate education".

    Thirdly, he was not administered higher-level items on the CELF, most likely because there are two forms, one for age 3-4 and one for age 5-6. This also may be the source of ceiling effects. The PLS actually is normed through age 7, so there was quite a bit more headroom there (and even then, he didn't reach a discontinue criterion, as you note).

    The BDI-II he was administered was the screening version only, or you would have received a true standard score, not an estimated score. Again, this is designed primarily to distinguish between children in need of services, and those not so. The screening version normally generates only cut scores, not standard scores, and would not have higher-level items on it.

    And "above age appropriate" is by no means a bad thing. I put statements like that in my reports all the time ("above age expectations" usually), as a simple observation, not as a value judgement. Now, the question of whether they are antagonistic to dealing with possible giftedness is another question altogether, which you are in a better position to assess than any of us are. But I don't think there is clear evidence for bias in the evaluation results themselves, or in the way they conducted it.

    The bottom line is, your DS's evaluation was entirely appropriate for its purpose--which does not include identifying him as gifted. It does identify him as having a communication disorder, though, in the area of pragmatic language. You may find that the goals change after reaching school age, when academics become part of the equation. As to additional testing, it is not that they are likely to do a bad IQ test, it's more that this is not part of what their mandate is at this age.


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    Thanks so much for your replies. They were both very helpful.

    DeeDee, our original diagnostic work was all done at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. When I brought up IQ testing with them at his last follow up at 4.5 they indicated that we would generally go through the school system for IQ testing. They also didn't seem to think it was necessary at this point. It seems no one thinks there is any need to test until 7 or 8.

    I am concerned that he is already very bored in preschool. We can't rule that out as a possible reason for acting out unless we determine if he does in fact have different educational needs. They would be all over a suspected case of low IQ, but in the other direction it's all let's just wait and see what happens in 2nd or 3rd grade. Which is probably when they actually have gifted program.

    I'm not in this for the gifted program. I don't even intend to use the public schools. I just want to get a good idea of how to help my son by understanding every aspect of him and anything that could be a factor in the behaviors we are seeing. It's very frustrating for me that the people involved in my sons treatment don't see it that way. Others do. Teachers and outpatient therapists we see and many others, including complete strangers, ask if we have had his IQ tested. So far I just tell them, no, they don't test this young.

    The private tester I have been in contact with says he is not too young for testing. She is listed on the Hoagies website, only about an hour or so from us, and has experience with testing kids on the spectrum. I don't even want to know how much she costs!

    My son does receive 30 minutes a week of speech to work on social language. That therapist is the one who completed the celf test. I don't actually get to talk to him other than IEP meetings because he sees my son at school. He seems like a great therapist though and everyone really likes him. I'm hopeful we will be able to continue speech as we move into the transition thing. I'm not sure what is involved since we will be either homeschooling, using a private K program, or keeping my son in preschool for an extra year to work on social skills. Oddly I think that the lower amount of academics may be better for him than a ton of academics that is way below his level like they would have in public K.

    aeh, the link to the differences between the tests was very helpful. Reading more about the test it seems a little less direct in it's approach and I wonder if my son just wasn't certain what to do sometimes and just said he didn't know. He does best with very direct instructions.

    Plus reading more about how the test works it seems to depend a lot on interpreting pictures, which my son isn't nearly as good at as understanding descriptive text.

    I looked up a sample report from the test and saw some of the types of vocab used and it was stuff DS would not know. Telescope, binoculars, veterinarian, audience, newspaper, trophy, and scale are all things I doubt he would know. We don't have any of those things about the house and have no stories about vets or audiences. We haven't been to any performances, not even to the theater, so audience was probably a new concept.

    My son might eat dinner and say "I would describe this meal as mild, which is appropriate, because the weather today is mild as well." The kids in his class might say "I like this. Taste yummy." Guess this type of test just didn't capture what my son is capable of because it wasn't meant to test that sort of language.

    The school is convinced I have been using flashcards since the day my son was born. Never mind that we don't even own flashcards.

    I wanted to use Waldorf education and they don't even teach reading until 7. They don't do grades. They emphasize imagination and wonder and play. None of that was to be because that's not my son.

    I've adapted, but I'm sick of dealing with professionals who think I've over-educated my child. Early Intervention actually told me my son didn't have ASD, that he had social deficits because I pushed academics too much. They passed their opinions of me on to the IU and I still get a lot of crap from them about how he shouldn't be reading and we shouldn't encourage all of this stuff that makes him different from other kids. Like I'm going to be able to stop my son from reading and learning? When they said his language was above age appropriate, I heard, inappropriate. And that never sounds good. I feel like there are plenty of ways they could have said that to not make it sound like a problem.

    Thank you everyone for your time. It's so hard to understand all of this stuff and know what to do. Just like any other parent, what's important to me is my son and I just want the best for him. It's very hard sometimes to know what that is.

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    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    DeeDee, our original diagnostic work was all done at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. When I brought up IQ testing with them at his last follow up at 4.5 they indicated that we would generally go through the school system for IQ testing. They also didn't seem to think it was necessary at this point. It seems no one thinks there is any need to test until 7 or 8.

    That's surprising to me. Our ASD practitioners have always seen IQ and achievement testing as a normal part of the diagnostic workup for autism.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I am concerned that he is already very bored in preschool. We can't rule that out as a possible reason for acting out unless we determine if he does in fact have different educational needs.

    We did find that subject-accelerating DS removed some sources of stress in school. It was not a cure-all, but it was a necessary step. That said, we couldn't get it done till late 2nd grade, even with IQ and achievement scores in hand.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    They would be all over a suspected case of low IQ, but in the other direction it's all let's just wait and see what happens in 2nd or 3rd grade. Which is probably when they actually have gifted program.

    Right. From their perspective, there's nothing to do about it until then, if there's no program in place.

    Subject acceleration is a really useful tool. Not the only answer, but useful.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I don't even intend to use the public schools. I just want to get a good idea of how to help my son by understanding every aspect of him and anything that could be a factor in the behaviors we are seeing.

    I think you could go along for quite a while without standardized testing if you are homeschooling, e.g. pretesting units in math and just teaching the missing bits, moving at his pace in all subjects, while also keeping services in place that teach him to be flexible and remediate the autism.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Teachers and outpatient therapists we see and many others, including complete strangers, ask if we have had his IQ tested. So far I just tell them, no, they don't test this young.

    You might get good information by saying instead, "how would I go about doing that?"

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    The private tester I have been in contact with says he is not too young for testing. She is listed on the Hoagies website, only about an hour or so from us, and has experience with testing kids on the spectrum. I don't even want to know how much she costs!

    Full workup is probably $2000. But it may be less if you don't need *everything*. And if you do not need testing for school negotiations, you really can probably wait. You can likely get a rough working idea of levels from other kinds of assessment.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    My son does receive 30 minutes a week of speech to work on social language. That therapist is the one who completed the celf test. I don't actually get to talk to him other than IEP meetings because he sees my son at school.

    Excellent.

    You could request an informal meeting near the end of the school year and pick his brain about your kid.

    It's great that this is in place.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Oddly I think that the lower amount of academics may be better for him than a ton of academics that is way below his level like they would have in public K.

    See if you can go and observe in the different settings: very revealing.

    Also find out if he is kept in preschool an extra year, how hard it is locally to gradeskip. Because, yes, that K may never be a good fit.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    The school is convinced I have been using flashcards since the day my son was born. Never mind that we don't even own flashcards.

    Yep. It took a long time for people to understand that DS needed to learn. School's ability to understand him did turn a corner for him in 3rd grade and has gotten steadily better since. Those early elementary years are really, really tricky for a 2E.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    I've adapted, but I'm sick of dealing with professionals who think I've over-educated my child.

    In later grades (7-8-9...) the teachers tend to be subject matter specialists who are genuinely excited when a kid has expertise and interest.

    Not all elementary teachers are dismayed by a kid who is out of the box-- we have found that there are teachers who will never get it, and some who will go to any length to accommodate. The hard thing is making sure the placement is right every year.

    Originally Posted by PanzerAzelSaturn
    Just like any other parent, what's important to me is my son and I just want the best for him. It's very hard sometimes to know what that is.

    Yep. Make a plan based on how things are now, and what skills are most urgently needed. Then: the plan will change a lot, and you'll just keep up.

    The interface with the world gets easier later, IME. Hang in there.

    DeeDee



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