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I have a relative who is a 6 year old boy who I will call B6. He is very bright, gifted I would imagine, although he has never been tested. I won't go into too much detail as it is not my child, but something happened the other day that has me quite concerned. The boy has a lot of challenging behaviours, but this really upset me.

I was at a family event a couple of days ago, and I walked into the kitchen. My husband and daughter were sitting up at the kitchen counter looking at a toy. B6 was on the floor petting the cat, but he kept looking up at my husband to see if he was looking at him. He started stroking down the cats nose and around its eyes then looked up at my husband again. I walked over to my daughter and my husband left the room. I was watching B6 out of the corner of my eye. He was stroking the cat, then paused his hand and dug his fingers into the side of the cat for a second then continued petting her. This cat is very placid and used to small children, so it takes a lot to bother her. A minute later, B6 caught me looking at him, he smiled up and said, "isn't she so cute" I agreed. I pretended not to be paying attention again and he pinched a bit of the cats fur and pulled it. The cat moved aside and I told him he can not pull the cats fur. He got up and left the room.

When I discussed this with my husband later, he said he had noticed B6 watching him and found it disconcerting too. He didn't hurt the cat badly, but there was something in the way he was watching to make sure he was not being observed and the way he was petting the cat as if he was exploring it rather than petting it.

Has anyone had any experience with anything like this?

My children would never, ever do this, but I know another child who behaves like this with animals. This child is not the most kind or compassionate of children in some ways, but I do not think he is mentally ill or has a disorder. That child has never seriously hurt an animal that I know of, but will "explore" with bothering them in this way. This is also a child who is somewhat inclined toward teasing other children, but I would not classify him as an actual bully.

I agree...it's very disturbing to see, but possibly somewhat age appropriate for some children??? I don't know.

The child I know has family pets, so it's not a matter of no exposure.

ETA: And I have seen the exact same behavior with the kid I know looking at an adult to see if he is being watched, and almost checking for a response. Very similar. Could the child be looking for boundaries? Needs to know more about what is appropriate or not? It's something I've wondered. I know the child's parents in my case are very frustrated with all this behavior (child is also generally "too much" with the family animals--doesn't watch their cues and is too much in their space). Yet he will also profess to love and adore animals...

Maybe he was trying to get a reaction from the cat rather than hurt the cat, but still, I don't really think that's normal from a 6 year old. He clearly knew it was wrong, and that's why he was looking to see if people were watching. My kids have both had cats at age 6 (and since birth I guess) and their behavior has always been more inconsiderate than purposefully hurtful. Like picking a cat up and running with it across the house. The cats were terrified of what "could" happen, esp. with DS who is clumsy. His "petting" could be more like smacking. I would keep a close eye on the kid...I would find it disturbing as well.

It's more appropriate for a much younger child. My DS (at age three) would sometimes smack our family dog on the nose when thought no one was looking. I think he wanted to see how the animal would react.

He was recently diagnosed with a receptive/expressive language impairment (social skills being the dominant issue). Based on this diagnosis, I think, at age three, he did not realize that he was aggravating the animal, and just as worrying, did not realize that an upset animal had the potential to retaliate.

Now, at eight, he is incredibly gentle and kind with animals-- he's also wonderful with young children. I think his ability to "read" things is way behind, and as a preschooler, he needed to understand some things explicitly that most of us just "get." At around 5.5, I really saw empathy/remorse click in and when it comes to those weaker (animals, young children) he is extremely careful and rule bound (i.e. probably much more careful than most same age peers),

My instinct is that your relative's son may need an evaluation- at six, I might begin to work worry about more oppositional behaviors/empathy, but it's still kind of early.

The issue of empathy depends on your internal reaction to the individual child's reaction to what he did to the cat.

This is based on my own personal cat-experimentation phase. Granted, since the person doing this was me, it was a very unusual experiment. I did not have a very pleasant internal reaction to this experiment, so I am fairly certain that I have empathy.

It may have to do with learning things that other people simply "get".

He is nearly 7, so he is definitely old enough to understand it's wrong to hurt animals.

I don't live nearby, so I don't see b6 very often. Other family members have made comments about being worried about him with animals, but I thought they were probably being overly dramatic. Things tend to get broken when he is around. And I know family members get frustrated.

There was another incident that same day, but I didn't witness it, so I am not really sure what happened. B6 was alone with his cousin (also 6) upstairs, and then B6 came down the stairs, and the cousin's dad saw him and thought he looked suspicious and asked what he was doing. B6 said he wasn't doing anything, but then the dad heard his son crying upstairs. The cousin was very shaken up and said B6 had tackled him and was blocking him from leaving the room. At the time I thought it was just boys being boys, but the cat incident makes me wonder.

I would not call it boys being boys with that incident you mentioned between the cousins. Especially at his age. Even DS at 4 - if we saw that behavior with him and his friends, we would be concerned and all his male friends are 5 years old but none of his friends would intentionally do that to another of their friends. That sounds like bullying to me, when a child is trying to dominate another child like that (and if the other boy's dad noticed that B6 was acting oddly, chances are that B6 knows that was wrong too).

However, whether to bring it up to the parents or not really depends on your relationship to those other parents and how receptive they would be. I know if it came from my best friend or others I respect, I would listen and I also know if I had concerns about something I saw with their kids, they would take what I said seriously, but I also have seen parents where it was clear that the other parents had no interest in thinking something is wrong with their perfect little angel and have lots of excuses for any negative behavior.

If the other parents are one of those difficult ones, you may also need to start considering protecting your own family/home and never allowing this child around your children or animals, or things you treasure - until you can see clear indications that the disturbing behaviors you see are no longer there.

Agreed.

Childhood cruelty to animals may be an early warning for later trouble. This article mentions possible motivations including "a vehicle for emotional abuse" (bullying/intimidation), and a desire to "alleviate boredom or achieve a sense of control."

Watching adults furtively adds a manipulative aspect to this child's behavior, making the situation more chilling: He seems to be daring anyone to mention what he is doing, thereby casting all who are present as culpable, unwitting accomplices in their silence.

In your own home, proactively stating rules which are clear-cut and objective ("Do not touch, keep your hands to yourself") may be more effective than subjective rules ("Pet the cat nicely, don't be harsh") when working with a manipulative person.

I would definitely be concerned.

From this distance, it is not possible to determine whether this is a child with delays in social comprehension, who is relating to animals like a much younger child, and getting into problematic peer social situations because he lacks the social language and problem-solving skills to manage them more appropriately, or if this is a case of budding psychopathy.

Either way, now would be the time to evaluate and remediate, before the developmental window for empathy closes in the next few years. Unfortunately, inconsistent or loose behavioral expectations and consequences in the home tend to breed antisocial behavior patterns. I would agree that speaking to his parents depends largely on your relationship with them, but that maintaining consistent environments where you can control them will help to keep you and yours safer, and also provide him with some limited opportunities to learn prosocial skills and develop empathy.

Obviously, I was not there for this incident, but when I have seen this same thing with the child I know, it didn't feel quite this way. More like...that intentionally "naughty" look you get from a child who is pushing boundaries.

That said, this would concern me:

I am not as sure about the incident with the cousin. Without a witness, I would not want to indict. I have heard all kinds of tales about who did what to whom when no adult was in the room in my experiences with children.

I would add one thing. I could be wrong, but I have the idea that mild cruelty to living things (we are not talking about stabbing or killing the cat here) used to be more common and tolerated, especially among boys. Think of pulling the wings off flies, incinerating ants with a magnifying glass (I think my DH did this), etc. To me this suggests a mild tendency to do this among some children. I am not saying it is okay, and I am aware that it is a sign of possible problems. Still. I would probably have a different perspective on this if it weren't for the other child in my life, whom I know quite well and who again, does not make me think "future sociopath" as much as "not the most compassionate child I know, but not in need of treatment."

I agree that now is the time for this child to be helped. I also agree that until his behaviors are addressed, you should take care around him.

I will gently point out though that assumptions and judgments are unhelpful here. I am terrible at writing anything negative or unsupportive, so forgive me if I don't get this right. But I just feel compelled to speak to a possibility on behalf of these parents.

From what you've written, it doesn't look like you are particularly close - either geographically or emotionally - to the parents or the child. So they may well be dealing with issues they haven't broadcast. They may be working hard with their child every single day on these behaviors.

They may be advised by professionals on discipline strategies that are outside the norm. They may have found (as I did) that public displays of discipline set their child back too much to justify them. So they may take their discipline into private (as I did), suffering the assumptions, judgment and derision of people around them, because it's what is best for their child. They may well be in a miserable, lonely place.

A quick anecdote - my DS7 had a very rough K year, and was rough with other kids. We didn't understand why he had these behaviors because he was very sad about them. But we worked hard with him and his teachers to help him gain control of his emotions. Over his K year, with much hard work and love - and with incredible amounts of self-doubt and self-loathing - he gradually clawed himself into a more normal range of behavior.

At the beginning of the next new school year, as DS was walking on the yard, a new little K boy - who my child did not know at all - leaped out at him, knocking him to the ground and scratching his face until it bled badly. Everybody told me it was "totally unprovoked." DS - bless him - did not retaliate. That alone shows how far he has come in a year.

I was told all about how the parents were called, and the child sent home, etc. I think I was supposed to respond with anger and demands. But ohhhh- I had been in those parents' shoes. I asked the teacher, who knew both my child and theirs, if the parents were working hard on these behaviors. The grateful look I got from the teacher told me everything I needed to know.

I wrote a note to the parents telling them I know it's hard for some little kids to control themselves, and that it's so hard to understand what is going on. I told them we had some of the same struggles. I told them that if they kept working, and listening to the professionals advising them, they could look forward with hope. I told them they didn't need to answer my note, but that they should know I didn't harbor any ill will toward them or their son.

Now don't get me wrong - I also told the teachers to wath carefully and protect my son! But I do feel I did the right thing.

I am not trying to be preachy and you DO need to protect yourself and your family. But to help these folks,at least consider the struggles they might be having and if you want to help, ask first rather than tell.

I just want offer something from the trenches.

I really hope they aren't just making excuses.
Sue

I really appreciate reading your reply, suevv.

I was just going to say the same thing. It's easy to forget that there is always more to the story than what we can see from the outside.

Thank you, Sue. I love the compassion in your story, that is all too easy to forget sometimes.

Thanks for all of your responses. Sueev I really appreciate your comments, as it can be hard to point out things like that.

It sounds like b6 needs the sort of supervision you give a toddler going through a pushing phase.I don't know how you could arrange that though. It is better for everybody as the child can be fdiverted before harm occurs AND you always know if it was in fact your child who did it.

Dubsyd, I understand how worrying b6's behavior is for you. I have a nephew who had a similar destructive phase. It was a long phase from about 2-10 years old. He constantly broke things and could not control his behavior. At one point, when nephew was 8 and dd was 7, I had to watch him constantly because I saw him push dd down several times, and then actually jump on top of her once. He also tore one of dd's dolls apart during that same visit.
He is quite gifted and has also suffered with many physical problems and ADHD. He was really challenging, and because he is my nephew, I worried about him and his future.
The difference is that his parents were also worried. At first, his mother provided very little discipline and would "rationalize" (make excuses for, in my mind) his behavior, saying that he is really bright and likes to take things (like dolls) apart with his hands. I think she also felt like he had to deal with many physical problems so she didn't want to try to work on another problem. Eventually, after problems at school, she got counseling for him AND herself and became able to follow through on discipline as he got older. They have tried many different therapies with him including counseling, medication and even hypnosis. His father was quite frankly worried that he was antisocial and always would be. At his worst, I was afraid that I could never let dd play alone with him. But at 12 and medicated for ADHD, he is much better. He can control his behavior, interact sociably and respectfully, and no longer is the destructive force he used to be.
So I don't know if there's a diagnosis here or not, but I think it would be great if you could tell his parents about what you saw in the context of your concern for him and the possibility that he needs help. If they are already concerned but just haven't talked about it, your desire to support them may feel very welcome.

I agree very well put. When I struggle with issue with my children, while I do need to find people to talk with I try to find people who understand or are going through similar situations. I don't usually broadcast it to all my relatives or friends. I don't post on facebook about my son going to therapy, or that he was busy this summer getting testing. One year a relative heard through the grapevine that we were looking into ASD for DS and she sent me condolences. Really grated me the wrong way, particularly as it has been decided he isn't on the spectrum. And second because even if he was on the spectrum, it's not something that needs condolences. While this may or may not be what is going on here. I agree with the idea that it's possible he is getting help but you haven't heard about it.

Great post, suevv. I have been in the place of wondering whether family must be thinking judgmental things about my child/our parenting when in fact, we were very aware of the issue and dealing with it as we knew how. But it could have looked like we were in denial because we were not sharing concerns with family or disciplining in a highly obvious way (we often took the child away without saying much).

I know a lot of people judge me for ds7's to I letting problems. They don't live with it. I do however watch him fairly closely at other people's houses. And then some days I am tired and slip up.

I agree with you all that it is impossible to know what is going on without being in the situation. I guess what it boils down to is that I have information that I think It is important to share with them. I just hope it is received okay.


Thanks again for all the input, and I am going to try to be as objective as possible when I speak to them. At the end of the day, I am speaking out of concern and love, and I certainly don't want to be judgemental! I am sure parents have looked at me in public with DS and made all sorts of judgments. Challenging kids are something you can't not understand if you have never had one! And even when you have, you can only really understand your own.