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    #207154 - 12/08/14 09:40 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: indigo]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2593
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    The U.S. segregates based on house prices.
    To the degree that public schools may be funded by local property taxes, some may hold your view. However:

    The method of school funding is almost irrelevant. I'm saying that many affluent parents want their children to attend school with other children predominantly of the same class, even if the per-student funding at the school is only average.

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    #207162 - 12/08/14 10:43 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    The U.S. segregates based on house prices.
    To the degree that public schools may be funded by local property taxes, some may hold your view. However:
    The method of school funding is almost irrelevant. I'm saying that many affluent parents want their children to attend school with other children predominantly of the same class, even if the per-student funding at the school is only average.
    While the liberty of U.S. citizens is often enjoyed as pursuit of the American Dream of upward mobility, financial security, and a good education, there may be, as you suggest, an affluent minority which sees itself as a socially distinct caste; Some may say this is quite different than your earlier assertion that the U.S. segregates based on house prices.

    Meanwhile many may see your statements as an attempt to hijack the thread and veer off-topic from Ability Grouping Research.

    Enough ability grouping research exits to take note that it is not beyond the purview of public schools to offer flexible cluster grouping by ability, readiness, and pacing for advanced academic curriculum.

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    #207176 - 12/08/14 11:39 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: mnmom23]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1443
    Loc: NJ
    Quote:

    Meanwhile many may see your statements as an attempt to hijack the thread and veer off-topic from Ability Grouping Research.


    While some may do that, my read on his comments is that Bostonian is merely pointing out that the system is so broken that parents are grouping by ability into neighborhoods to ensure that their progeny are schooled among peers.
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    #207179 - 12/08/14 11:46 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: madeinuk]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    Quote:

    Meanwhile many may see your statements as an attempt to hijack the thread and veer off-topic from Ability Grouping Research.


    While some may do that, my read on his comments is that Bostonian is merely pointing out that the system is so broken that parents are grouping by ability into neighborhoods to ensure that their progeny are schooled among peers.


    He didn't say they're grouping by ability, he said they're grouping by wealth.

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    #207180 - 12/08/14 11:51 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: madeinuk]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2593
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    Quote:

    Meanwhile many may see your statements as an attempt to hijack the thread and veer off-topic from Ability Grouping Research.


    While some may do that, my read on his comments is that Bostonian is merely pointing out that the system is so broken that parents are grouping by ability into neighborhoods to ensure that their progeny are schooled among peers.

    Ability grouping within schools is criticized because high-SES children are over-represented in the top track and low-SES children in the bottom one. My point is that if you try to put all the children together to achieve equity, and if the high-ability learn little in the untracked classes, the high-ability children with affluent parents will leave. A static analysis will conclude that ability grouping increases segregation by SES, but ability grouping may lead to less segregation by SES than untracking when you account for the responses of parents.

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    #207182 - 12/08/14 12:02 PM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: Dude]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1443
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    [quote=madeinuk][quote]
    He didn't say they're grouping by ability, he said they're grouping by wealth.


    I stand corrected - he did not say that they are grouping by ability. My bad. They are grouping by achievement not ability.

    BTW, please don't confuse earned high income with wealth. The wealthy don't need a pay cheque.


    Edited by madeinuk (12/08/14 12:04 PM)
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    #207186 - 12/08/14 12:39 PM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Ability grouping within schools is criticized because high-SES children are over-represented in the top track and low-SES children in the bottom one. My point is that if you try to put all the children together to achieve equity, and if the high-ability learn little in the untracked classes, the high-ability children with affluent parents will leave. A static analysis will conclude that ability grouping increases segregation by SES, but ability grouping may lead to less segregation by SES than untracking when you account for the responses of parents.


    This is true, and it's exactly what we did. My eldest sister did the same thing after trying a public kindergarten. Our local elementary schools are against acceleration and the principals I talked to over the years made that point crystal clear ("Why do you want a grade skip? Do you let your son play outside?").

    My two youngest (6th/7th) are in private schools. My eldest (11th grade) attends a program run by the public schools. He attends it because it's a separate program at a community college that's run by two gifties. It's a wonderful program, and in part, the success is due to its distance from the other schools.

    The public schools are presumably unaware of what they lose when they drive away affluent and/or intelligent parents. Or they don't care. I don't know.



    Edited by Val (12/08/14 12:42 PM)

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    #207190 - 12/08/14 01:47 PM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: madeinuk]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    Originally Posted By: Dude

    He didn't say they're grouping by ability, he said they're grouping by wealth.


    I stand corrected - he did not say that they are grouping by ability. My bad. They are grouping by achievement not ability.
    He didn't say they are grouping by ability or achievement, he said the affluent are grouping by perceived "class".

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    #207192 - 12/08/14 02:11 PM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4206
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    parents are grouping by ability into neighborhoods to ensure that their progeny are schooled among peers.
    Do you have a neighborhood public school which contains strictly gifted, to use as an exemplar? To the degree that neighborhood public schools tend to contain a mix of abilities, some may say your theory that "parents are grouping by ability into neighborhoods" is unfounded, may not be accurate, and is not part of Ability Grouping Research.

    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Ability grouping within schools is criticized because high-SES children are over-represented in the top track and low-SES children in the bottom one.
    The research explains the differences and distinctions between ability grouping and tracking; The terms are not interchangeable.

    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    My point is that if you try to put all the children together to achieve equity, and if the high-ability learn little in the untracked classes, the high-ability children with affluent parents will leave.
    While I agree that inclusive classrooms which lead to underachievement of gifted pupils may cause families who have other options to leave, as shared in this earlier post upthread, exercising options to leave does not necessarily equate to wealth. Families of every SES may strive to have their child/ren's educational needs met.

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    #207305 - 12/09/14 08:02 AM Re: Ability Grouping Research [Re: mnmom23]
    mecreature Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/14/11
    Posts: 354
    Our family is far from well off or wealthy. Our public school had ability grouping and was all for skipping and we still left for a private school for gifted.

    sorry i provided no research but just wanted to add


    Edited by mecreature (12/09/14 08:04 AM)

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