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    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Originally Posted by Tigerle
    Some of you might be interested in "the smartest kids in the world" by Amanda Ripley, stupid title, not the greatest of books, but interesting premise, trying to understand the differences in success generated by education systems around the world by comparing the experiences of American exchange students in countries that do well in surveys such as PISA and coming to the conclusion that one of the biggest problems about the US system is that the one thing most schools, kids and parents focus on over academics, spend more energy on, spend ridiculous hours and money on, and all round take more seriously than academics in all respects (including the idea that ability and results matter over self esteem) is sports.

    Tigerle, I have no issues with anyone offering up opinions about another country's education system (or whatever) - I like good discussions all around smile And I'll also admit up front, I haven't had time to read this entire thread.

    I just wanted to point something out, as an American living in the US - I understand where one might come to the conclusion you've mentioned that Ripley did if you're basically looking from "outside" - we do have a love of football etc here, and I would expect that exchange students from America going into other countries would be successful - but not only (or possibly even semi-directly) because they are in a different education environment. The reality is, the American students who are lucky enough to be either studying abroad or living with their families abroad are most likely students who come from families who are living in families where the *parents* have valued education.

    This is just my experience based on my very limited corner of the world, but from what I've seen, the challenges with American education are the vast number of students who's parents are struggling to make ends meet (or who perhaps have given up) - families where parents don't have time to invest in their children's lives (doesn't matter if the time invested is in sports, academics, or just being together). My town is very segmented socio-economically. You can see that reflected in neighborhood school performance - and this is in a city where the school district is doing their best to put all the resources they can into helping out children who are disadvantaged. It's just a very very challenging situation for educators.

    I am not an athlete, but I do value participation in sports, as do most of the other people I know here in my little corner of America. I also really enjoy watching American football and soccer! And other sports. I value having my children participate in sports - not because it's some glorified activity that will make them some type of super-hero star, but because it's good for our health and spirit. That's *all* of my family. I also have one child who is very athletically talented - she has yet to meet a sport she can't excel at. Gymnastics is her passion, she competes, and she practices with her team five nights a week for 3 hours each night. Similar schedule perhaps to the foreign exchange student who joined the football team in high school. The thing about the kids I know who participate in truly competitive sports here in my little corner of the US - yes, it can take up a tremendous amount of time, and yes, it can be difficult to figure out how to juggle academics and homework and practice for the sport. And yes, very *very* few of the kids who participate in school sports will go on to either play sports in college and even fewer will be able to have a career in that sport. That's truly NOT why most kids are out participating in team sports - they are there practicing each night because they *love* it - they are having fun. And that fun, combined with the benefits of learning how to work together as a team, are things that *are* worth letting a child participate in.

    And even though most of these kids won't go on to careers in sports, most of the adults I know still play some form of sport - many times the same sports they played in school. I play team sports as an adult - not as a professional, but just for fun in local "for fun" leagues.

    I think it's easy to look at the extremes and extrapolate them back to apply to a group as a whole, but the reality is, the majority of parents aren't the pushy tiger-parents out pushing their child to do 3 hours of football or 3 hours of biology or 3 hours of academic decathlon or whatever every night. And those that are - certainly aren't the reason that education in America might be not exactly always the highest standard.

    The reality is most parents who are engaged are reasonable, and the challenge is how to help children growing up in households where the parents *aren't* engaged in their children's lives - for whatever reason - find an adult who does care, find a way to keep their own motivation, find a way to make their dreams come true.

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    And I'll add that, for the lower end of the SES and academic achievement spectrum, which does overlap disproportionately with less-involved parents (making no judgement on why they are less-involved), there is a decent amount of research suggesting that involving those students in organized team sports has beneficial effects on their academic achievement and other positive life outcomes. For those children, sport is a way of helping them stay engaged in school and their futures.

    I am also not an athlete, nor do I have children for whom post-secondary athletics are a high likelihood, but I do think there is a place for sports, in balance. We've been blessed in our children's sports experiences with coaches who love their sports, but prioritize them beneath generally being a whole person.


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    Originally Posted by polarbear
    I am not an athlete, but I do value participation in sports, as do most of the other people I know here in my little corner of America. I also really enjoy watching American football and soccer! And other sports. I value having my children participate in sports - not because it's some glorified activity that will make them some type of super-hero star, but because it's good for our health and spirit. That's *all* of my family. I also have one child who is very athletically talented - she has yet to meet a sport she can't excel at. Gymnastics is her passion, she competes, and she practices with her team five nights a week for 3 hours each night. Similar schedule perhaps to the foreign exchange student who joined the football team in high school. The thing about the kids I know who participate in truly competitive sports here in my little corner of the US - yes, it can take up a tremendous amount of time, and yes, it can be difficult to figure out how to juggle academics and homework and practice for the sport. And yes, very *very* few of the kids who participate in school sports will go on to either play sports in college and even fewer will be able to have a career in that sport. That's truly NOT why most kids are out participating in team sports - they are there practicing each night because they *love* it - they are having fun. And that fun, combined with the benefits of learning how to work together as a team, are things that *are* worth letting a child participate in.
    I am also not an athlete nor are my children. (My son does do a martial art outside of school.) But I do appreciate what sports can bring to a child or another similar type activity. I'm not a football fan but I put up with it since my life now revolves around field shows at half time. What bothers me is the amount of $$ and attention that revolves around one particular male dominated sport (football). Particularly as our football team is contrary to popular culture not the popular kids, and we are more known for other sports & team competitions and the kids who win academic awards.

    But my DS's H.S. encourages all the kids to participate in at least one activity outside of academics, sport, marching band, choir, the school play, the robotics club or Model UN. There are many things to choose from, we have almost 30 sports teams and 40 or so clubs. What I've heard the administrators say is that these activity help a child socially and their enjoyment of them keeps them engaged in school. The school claims that the kids they tend to loose to apathy are those who aren't involved in the school is some way.

    I was skeptical except I have seen it happen with my own eyes for my children. If my son wasn't in marching band my DS15 would have lost all interest in school by now. No matter how much I complain about the marching band schedule and how busy it makes him I am very happy the sense of belonging, maturity, and purpose that the group of kids in marching band gives to my child. I don't expect that he will keep this up after High School. And I did deliberately push him towards this particular activity. But it's one of the reasons I'm trying to make things work with this public school.

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    Originally Posted by aeh
    And I'll add that, for the lower end of the SES and academic achievement spectrum, which does overlap disproportionately with less-involved parents (making no judgement on why they are less-involved), there is a decent amount of research suggesting that involving those students in organized team sports has beneficial effects on their academic achievement and other positive life outcomes. For those children, sport is a way of helping them stay engaged in school and their futures.


    Exactly why I don't think school sport teams should exclude children, definitely rank teams in order of ability if need be, but don't only have the a and b teams. I was useless at sport but I really enjoyed it at school.

    Also the whole sports thing is rampant in Australia and NZ, I'm sure Puffin and Squishy can back me up here. The All Blacks currently in Chicago are gods here - if you don't have some interest in rugby you really are on the outer - unless you are a women, of course - there's netball for the ladies..... At least in the US you have a range of sports that are social currency.

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    Originally Posted by Mahagogo5
    Originally Posted by aeh
    And I'll add that, for the lower end of the SES and academic achievement spectrum, which does overlap disproportionately with less-involved parents (making no judgement on why they are less-involved), there is a decent amount of research suggesting that involving those students in organized team sports has beneficial effects on their academic achievement and other positive life outcomes. For those children, sport is a way of helping them stay engaged in school and their futures.


    Exactly why I don't think school sport teams should exclude children, definitely rank teams in order of ability if need be, but don't only have the a and b teams. I was useless at sport but I really enjoyed it at school.

    Also the whole sports thing is rampant in Australia and NZ, I'm sure Puffin and Squishy can back me up here. The All Blacks currently in Chicago are gods here - if you don't have some interest in rugby you really are on the outer - unless you are a women, of course - there's netball for the ladies..... At least in the US you have a range of sports that are social currency.
    My DS's H.S. there is at least one sport per season (and many 2) for each boys & girls that do not require trying out. (Ie.. anyone can join) Track in the spring is one example. Most teams have up to 3 levels, freshman, jr varsity & varsity. So while you might not play the sport you want or get into varsity you can participate anyway. Plus activities such as marching band will take you even if you have never played an instrument. And we have a few "teams' that are clubs, for example the ultimate Frisbee team that take all comers.

    What really happens is KIDS sports are a huge part of suburban life and those who aren't athletic drop out WAY before H.S. A lot of this comes from the peers, not necessary the coaches. (My DD played 4 years of fast pitched softball and her coaches were great but by junior high it was the other kids who discouraged her.) Most students who play at the H.S. level have played a sport for years many at the private club level. But they do diversify, lots of soccer through junior high. But those kids go into football, lacrosse, soccer, and water polo. (The later particularly if they also did swim team in the summer.) But my opinion is that organized sports starts too early (before K) and it's hard for those kids who wait till they are more emotionally ready at 4th & 5th grade to start.

    What I would love to see is more intramural sports at the H.S. level. We have some of this, I've heard of lunchtime doge-ball & basketball tournaments. But they are informal & parents don't necessary hear about it if a child isn't involved. All of the larger pubic university's in my area have extensive intramural sports for their students. These are informal groups of students, who play low stakes games mostly for the fun & exercise.

    Last edited by bluemagic; 10/30/14 09:02 PM.
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    Gifted is gifted is gifted, regardless of whether we're talking about academics, athletics, music, art, or whatever. The defining characteristic of all is the same... they have an intense passion for doing whatever it is they're doing. When their time is their own, the gifted student seeks learning activities, the gifted athlete seeks physical activities, etc.

    For example, it takes a special kind of intensity to turn EVERY SINGLE writing prompt in AP English into a football analogy. It should come as no surprise, then, that the guy who did that was the captain of the football team. Whenever this kid wasn't practicing football, he was hanging out with other kids and arranging pick-up games. Therefore, he was was developing his skills at a rate that a kid without that intensity couldn't possibly hope to match. Meanwhile, I was probably reading a book, which is why his writing skills couldn't come close to matching mine.

    My own DD9 is an interesting study in this, because she's intense about three different things: learning, music, and athletics. We get the same kinds of feedback from her teachers in all of these things, and we see her seeking new learning opportunities and practicing them all without any prompting from us.

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    Yep crazy sport here. I picked up a book here entitles the 100 greatest New Zealanders (or similar). I was expecting a balance of scientists, politicians, artists etc but about 2/3 were sports related. The so called sports heroes are often awful role models (though some are really good) and it is worse since rugby became professional. In my childhood the fullback in the all blacks could have been a doctor or a teacher and would have behaved on tour rather than damage their professional standing. Noe they figure they can get away with all sorts of rubbish. But mostly I feel that schools shouldn't be concentrating on competitive sport. Sport at school should be for the purpose of developing the body so it can support the mind and people can develop healthy habits and get exposure to.things they may wany to follow up outside of school.

    Ps. My new phone is hard to type on.

    Last edited by puffin; 10/31/14 01:22 PM.
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    Do college athletes receive a full-ride and/or get recruited by coaches in NZ?

    In US, if you are really good (as in have potential to turn pro), you can write your own ticket. If your child attends a top prep school and is a star athlete, you'll have a lot of options.

    If I thought DD had the natural ability to be able to compete nationally, I might be really tempted to push her into that direction.

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    university in nz is relatively cheap and student loans are easy to get (an arts degree isn't much more than $20000, although a medical degree is $100k plus)most doing top flight degrees do a stint overseas to gain experience and earn more to pain off their student loans before returning home. Aussie is the same pretty much.
    Sports stars can get school scholarships, but so can gifted kids. At college level as far as I'm aware there isn't anything -the focus is on academia not sports.
    Players come up through provincial teams and I guess universities have nothing to do with selection.

    Just a quick check of the scholarships page for NZ unis shows no sporting scholarships other than for support staff ie: coaches and physios'and most are no more than $5000.00 total. There aren't any free rides unless you have extreme hardship and even then I don't think so

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    Thanks Mana for asking that question. I had been wondering the differences between the US and UK in terms of sports and colleges/universities.

    In the UK and in other European countries, kids can leave school with qualifications around 13-16 yrs old. In Germany, you can become an apprentice or enter a trade school or vocational training at 13 to eke a living.

    In the UK, there are NO televised local high (or college) school sports or reporting in the local newspapers, as far as I'm aware. So there isn't a sports infrastructure like there is in the US. It doesn't exist.

    There are sports being played at UK colleges and universities but nowhere like in the US. There just isn't the scale and scope. Oxford and Cambridge have rowing crews, for instance, which are well known, but who goes to Oxford and Cambridge for it? Perhaps there's a few, but there are no comparisons with the US.

    The UK started to implement tuition and fees about 15 yrs ago. There was a lot of protest at the time. There are scholarships and other ways students from poor backgrounds can afford to go to uni.

    I'll also point out that while many (poor) people throughout the world have turned to sports to pick themselves up from the bootstraps so to speak - Pele and other football (soccer) players from the shanty towns of Brazil come to mind. The same argument, however, can be made for music, art, writing, etc. Pick up Glencoe's World Literature textbook and maybe a 1/3 or more of the writers/poets/etc. came from poor backgrounds. The difference is that many did not achieve or gain monetary success or fame within their lifetime while many sports players have.

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