Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional out-of-control tantrums

Hi there !
I wanted to write quite a long post about my DS10. But, as I got no much time and the situation is getting once again kind of difficult at home. I decide to write something not too long ....
Let's start by the positive points. We started homeschooling DS and his sister (aged 7.5 now) in september 2013. He was then diagnosed with dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, ADD, .... Although high IQ, many sholar stuffs were just unreachable for him. My wife quited her job and homeschooled them. We stopped many things such as OT, speach therapy, partly due to money and DS being exhausted. Now, DS is able to read quite easily, still under his age-level but well beyond what we expected when starting homeschool. In school, he wrote like 3 words a day, now, he is able to write several lines, able to write small dictations, small essays (10 to 20 lines) in an understandable handwriting. He can also add 4-digits numbers without putting them in columns in 15 seconds. Her former speach therapist who did diagnosed dyscalculia, said he is no more and she was confounded by where he is now at reading.... I won't comment here about what I think about the school system down here.
So what ? The problem is that the behavior of DS is still the same as it was, or even worse. That is to say that we have to struggle for everything (except homeschool). Let's have an example. Yesterday evening, he got back from an exhibition downtown with his sister and mother. He asked for TV, and we refused as he took too long a time to get washed (for everything we ask, he skips and starts playing or watching books). Then our lovely kid turned into a kind of devil, screaming at us, throwing things around the place, saying that he wants to kill himself. Nothing can stop him except raw force (which I use just in extreme cases... I mean catching him, definitely not beating him). Then, we want him to come and have his meal. He did not. I started by trying to force him and I screamed. His mother told me to stop and to let him and she tried making him understand by words and waiting. When he came he just take a bowl of dried grape (raisin) and throwed them on the table. I screamed, he left from the kitchen. We started eating without him, we ate the starter. As he was still not here, his mother took his plate off. When he decided to come back he discovered that instead of the grated carrots (the starter), he now had smashed patatoes ... So he screamed again .... And so on.
Well that's what happened yesterday, but yesterday was just as the other days. Several tantrums a day. Let's say up to 5, generally 2 or 3. They can last about 30 min to one hour. It is then just like hell at home. They can stop just in a blink of an eye, and then he becomes a normal kid, just as if nothing happened. His little sister is more and more hurt by how her brother is. I mean she is very very close to her brother, but she does not understand him then. It is a pitty to see the expression of despair on her face when the house is upside down due to the behavioral troubles of DS. This morning, as another tantrum occured (this time because he was looking at a book on the sealife instead of having his breakfast), she said to DW that she's not sure to be able to go on with homeschooling ...
Well, there are actually less tantrums than there was during the school years. At least, there are no more those terrible homework tantrums which drove us crazy and exhausted. During the homeschool period, he is under medication and things are not too bad ... Well, sometimes, he can get hard but not too much.
We clearly do not know how to behave regarding those tantrums. Her mother thinks kind of the "psychiatrist" way: he wants to be the king and he enters tantrum to get to the point he wants to be. So, she tells that we should not pay any attention to what is doing and make him pay (with true money) if he breaks something. I do not share this view. From my point of view, it is purely neurophysiological. He just cannot help himself doing those things, just like an asperger would. But in anycase, we do not know how to behave to face those tantrums. For instance, following the yesterday event, DW wants to punish him for what he did by not allowing him to watch TV today (My kids are watching selected DVDs about 30min to 1 hour/day) . I told her that it is pointless because, those tantrums are not under his control. So, the result will just be another tantrum without any chance for him to act positively to get to what he wants. But, then she asked what to do ...Well, I do not know. I have no ideas .... I personnaly think that being more strict, severe with him is the only way. But, with him, this rapidly turns into a "fight". Compared to his sister, when we are not happy with her we can reprimand her, maybe several times, but at one point, she just stops. With DS, this never happens. Moreover, as he is getting stronger and stronger, we are afraid that at one point, we won't be able to manage those situations. We are also afraid that he can hurt himself (he can punch his own face) or his sister or ourself. We are in despair ... DW was crying last night not only for what happened, but mainly for being afraid of the future. She quited her job and carrier, our financial situation is not safe anymore (as DW stopped working), for what ? I told her that with DS it is no use to think about tomorrow, you just can seize the day and hope...

First, I am sorry that your family has had such a difficult time with this. It should go without saying that parenting in this kind of situation is exhausting, frustrating, and discouraging.

Second, where I don't know your child or the details, I won't presume to assume that I know what is going on, but I will say that, no matter what the cause of the tantrums is, it is critically important that you and your spouse come to some kind of consensus on how you will deal with them, and then do so, consistently. It may be that they are primarily neurophysiological in origin, or it may be that they are primarily behavioral in origin (most of the time, these things are a little bit of both). Either way, inconsistency across caregivers will only escalate the behaviors.

Third, whether or not he is making choices about the tantrums, or truly cannot control them (and I might closely consider the question of choice, given the abrupt cessation of his tantrums), it is also important that all of the adults maintain a calm, rational approach to dealing with him. (Believe me, I know that this can be very difficult, in the moment; sometimes one needs to step away for a moment, regroup, and then return to the situation.)

I agree that the first consideration is his safety and that of others around him. This includes the emotional trauma these kinds of episodes between him and his parents leaves with his sister.

A few more thoughts: I do know that, for some children, an approach similar to what you describe (exacting an actual monetary cost for damage that he does during a tantrum) has been effective, especially when it is primarily behavioral. You are also reporting that he behaves noticeably better when on his medication. Perhaps exploring medication or dosage adjustments with his medical team would be appropriate.

The work of Ross Greene is worth a look: "The Explosive Child", www.livesinthebalance.org

Well, thanks aeh.

the fact is that we tried a lot of things regarding those tantrums. At one point, I simply chose to let the mother act her own way, without trying to interfer and also supporting her. We also try as much as possible not to argue between us in front of him.

He already broke many things (hopefully small things since we began making him responsible for what he broke). He paid for them without being reluctant and even agreeing with that. This changed nothing. But, it is hard for me to let him break more costful things (which indeed he cannot afford paying them). The other day, he thought he broke his sister's keyboard ... He entered then in a despaired behavior crying, yelling he is mentally insane. All he wanted was sleeping, to forget what he did. I was the first to try to see what happened. He refused to tell me what happened, I just cannot help him from crying, yelling. I tried to take him in my arms just to let him go down. It did not work. He wanted his mother... He just calmed down when after talking with his mother who finally know what happened, she told me what happened and I told her that nothing was indeed broken (although he could think it was).
When I talk about "blink of an eye" change in attitude, it is very strange as it really seems not to be rational.
It is very hard to keep calm in front of him. Last summer, he was eating cherry tomatoes. He took one of them between one finger and thumb and press. I told him very calm not to press too much. He then looked me in the eye and press and of course, the tomato explode.... He can be very very provocative, telling us insane things ... It is such non sense.

I will look to Ross Greene work

Oh I am sorry your family is going through this. My DS6 sometimes has big tantrums which upset the whole family. It is frustrating and exhausting. I can only imagine at 10 yrs old it would be harder to deal with.

I second the idea of looking into his medication. I remember my little brother being tried on Ritalin and while it helped him at school, at home (when it was wearing off) he was a disaster, behaving completely unlike himself.

The only other advice I might suggest is trying to understand if there is a pattern to the tantrums and seeing if there is a way to avoid the triggers - is he hungry, tired, frustrated, etc.? Once my kids are in the middle of a 'big emotion' (anger, anxiety, whatever) there is not a lot of value in trying to reason with them. I've found the best I can do is comfort and empathize with them and save the rational discussion for after. I also try to help them verbalize their feelings (ie "You look like you are having a big feeling! Are you feeling very angry? You are mad at me for [what I said, did, etc].? It's OK to feel angry, when you are calmer we can discuss [x]")

I have also found some useful tips on this site:
http://thinkkids.org/does-your-child-ever-seem-unreasonable/?

It is hard to remember parenting advice when you child is in a tantrum state. But I found the "Regulate, relate, reason" approach a useful one.

http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707

I am so sorry for what you are experiencing. My daughter has intense melt-downs (I believe in her case due to PTSD) and it is very difficult to stay calm.

I do just want to say that re: the tomato incident, I get it. Even as an (mostly well-adjusted, pro-social) adult, if I would be tempted to do exactly what your son did. (I wouldn't, but it would be tempting.) I would just choose to avoid any power struggles unless it was a behavior I felt very strongly about.

This book is great: http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707

Some may say it is wise to be specific in managing expectations. For example, a parent might say: " You may have TV if you get washed and come straight here, without playing or looking at books. But if you choose not to get washed and come straight here, you may not have TV. The choice is yours." This sets clear expectations and the child will know you can be trusted to follow through. From reading the post, the child may have the perception that parents agreed to TV and then changed their minds arbitrarily, leaving the child feeling disempowered. The child may not understand the role of his own choices as leading to the consequences.

Announcing, "the carrots will be served for 5 minutes, then it is time for potatoes" can be used to manage the child's expectations.

Some have said that "tantrums" are purposeful attempts by a child in control of himself to manipulate a situation; "meltdowns" are cognitive overload by a child overwhelmed and therefore not in control of himself. Effective parenting may respond differently to tantrums than to meltdowns.

Some may say this sounds arbitrary and punitive... why punish a child for looking at a book, even during breakfast time? Isn't this type of flexibility a benefit of homeschooling? If there is truly a need to stay on schedule, might a parent advise, "No books until after breakfast. That's a house rule. If you choose to break the rule, I will mark that on the calendar. 5 broken house rules in a month will indicate you have chosen to no longer homeschool, but rather have chosen to return to school."

Were expectations proactively managed regarding the result of behavior choices? For example, "A tantrum today will result in loss of TV privileges tomorrow."

From the child's point of view, it may be that he never knows what to expect. It may appear that adults cannot be trusted, but rather make up arbitrary rules on the fly, according to their moods.

Well, hard to say everything in a post. Indeed, since last summer, we put in ths children room and in the kitchen a time schedule. The kids therefore know at which time the lunch is and that if they are ready before that time they can have access to TV. We also recall them that time is running. So DS is perfectly aware of what is going on. This absolutly do not prevent him from playing or whatever is willing to except washing. By the way, washing is also on the time schedule ...

Well, in that case, for DW, it is tantrums, and for me, I define those episodes as meltdowns. In fact, I guess sometimes it is tantrums, but then things last for few minutes and he quickly realizes that it is a dead-end and stops. He then will scream, yell, but soon come to eat or whatever is on the schedule

I second the Explosive Child book/method.

Do you think it's lack of impulse control? Does he have necessary tools to handle his anger/frustration? Can you help him verbalize his emotions?

I had to remind myself last night _again_ that my child is lacking the skills to behave and not intentionally misbehaves. With that attitude, I can teach him how to behave in difficult situations.

Also, instead of looking at individual incidents (e.g. throwing things after being told no TV), try to look at the bigger picture. Why did he do that? Because he was frustrated being told no TV, but he couldn’t verbalize it. Teaching him how to express his emotions will go a long way.

Just remember, you are not a bad parent. Good luck.

I guess there is a misunderstanding in there. That is his little sister who said that she cannot truly stand what is going on and speak about homeschool. By the way, we tried reward with DS (Barkley). It did work of one month or so when he was 7 but quickly he told us something like he cannot be bought ....

Well definitely, we are taking care of this: he is always aware of what is going on. We are proactive ... but he is more proactive than us. I mean that we should be anticipating everything ...Almost impossible

I will take a look. See if available in France ...

I guess he is impulsive, not under control then. What tools ? He is so "crazy" then that I do not know how to make im verbalize anything ? Hints ?



He is perfectly aware that he misbehaved. When everything was over yesterday, I tried to have a talk with him when I got him to bed. He just told me that it is over and asked to get to something else.

Anotherday, I insisted on having an answer. I asked him what is the point, I told him that he gets everyone sad, that he's also doing harm to himself and it is not a constructive attitude. He got to the point to cry and scream several times that he is a big bastard ("con" in French). He seems then unstoppable. I just took him in my arms to confort him. I just wanted him to understand not make him cry ...

I think about that ... but once again, he seems then not to be able to express anything else but the frustration.


Well many times, I am completely disarmed and feel like not being a good father especially when getting upset

If it is a time issue, as MON is suggesting - one thing too is to maybe use a timer. I do this with DS when it is play time, because I can say "we have only 10 minutes to play/build" but when the time is up, he does not think 10 minutes has already passed... but with a timer, he knows how much time has passed, and when the timer buzzes, there is usually no confrontation about moving to the next activity.

For things like books at the table (our kids like to bring toys), one thing I recall seeing at a school that I thought was neat - they had a basket outside each classroom for the kids that could not bear to leave a toy in the car, and the kids know that their toys will be returned at the end of the day. For our kids, we move their toys out of physical reach but in plain sight on the table... and that has helped deflect tears over having to leave something they were absorbed by and don't want to leave for a meal.

Yes, but he realizes only after a while.

Well we tried so many things from being kind with him even when being insulted to using "force". Nothing works ... He is so irrational then.

Yes, time is a big weakness of him. He still asks if it lunch time or souper time (it is much rarer now than it was). DW wants him to manage this by himself just by looking at the clocks (w have several wall-clocks in the house). I just tell her that we have to remind him the time is running because he cannot do it by himself. But, she does not want that so I just quit this. She tells that from knowing he will not have what he wants he will care about time ... But anyway, when I am with him I told him regularly that he has to speed up ... well, it changes nothing. He is so in what he is doing that except from doing things for him nothing will happen. And as he is now 10, we cannot act as he were 4....


The main trigger for tantrums : frustration (quite linked to time). But he is not behaving as a king-kid because when he wants something in a mall, if we refuse (most of the time) he is just not happy and never enters tantrums (or once). But he can also enter in huge anger if we ask him to stop playing because we have to go to the cinema (he enjoies that). Then, it is not truly a frustration because we are going to please him. It is more a matter of time and eing too much into what is doing.


You're definitely right ! Sometimes is anger turns into despair and then we have to confort him. I often tell him then that we love him but we just cannot let him act this way.



I'll think about that... Thanx

We did try timers ... Did work for a while and then, nothing ... ALike many things, the novelty works and then he drops ...

Let me be more precise : it is not a matter of book at the table... He usually that a book in his bedroom or in the living room and stay where the book is ...

We found the "Transforming the Difficult Child" book mentioned above very helpful.

We initially just implemented the one section where one compliments the child on the large number of things they are doing right and absolutely ignores everything else ("Thank you for closing the door!" "Thank you for using your fork!"). Partly because we couldn't fully agree on the rest initially as my DH and I naturally have different styles of parenting. It may seem like not a very big strategy to just compliment the child and ignore their bad behavior, but this stage took months for us and was extremely difficult.

But doing it helped so much! DS initially (weeks to a couple months) reacted by sometimes doing whatever we complimented him on the opposite on purpose the next time. That was very frustrating to us parents as we then had to ignore the bad behavior (leaving the door open or "forgetting" to use a fork).

DH and I bonded through it, we needed eachother's strength to not react to DS sometimes, we agreed we could grab the other's hand for support and the other would always support or acknowledge them. Both of us would sometimes squeeze the other's hand way too hard as we were so stressed! To this day, two years later, when DS is being particularly annoying we find ourselves grabbing the other's hand and it's still very helpful in making us feel like a team.

Anyways, this is getting long but it did all work in the end, after some months we had a better overall relationship with DS both from his perspective and from ours, the overall tension diminished a bit. Then we were able to come up with a new list of house rules that DS genuinely agreed to and genuinely attempted to follow and which we were more calmly and consistently able to oversee. It included no screaming/loud-yelling (so very loud tantrums then are not allowed and it actually worked!).

The consequence was only a few minute time out. The book suggests the child should see it as just a time to breathe, a little break, but DS always saw it as a punishment, it still worked fine.

One rule we had on the list that reminds me of your DS is "no hurting anyone or anything" because DS would hit himself when upset (threatening suicide is a similarly violent gesture). Luckily the no hitting/hurting rule applies to him also and he therefore stopped. Almost magically, actually, it took only a couple of times pointing that was on the rule list, and receiving a short time out. (But the rules alone wouldn't have worked without the prior many months of establishing a calmer safer relationship with him).

DS is still very much a high strung person prone to drama, to holding onto negatives, not an easygoing person. He will talk about this or that awful thing and it turns out it happened when he was 3. He will perhaps not have an easy life in that regard. But as a family member things are working much better.

I want to let you know that we have dealt with this issue intermittently throughout with DS7 (almost eight). I noticed that the issue ramps up when I am punitive and directive in my approach. Sometimes, I've had enough and will say things like "go to your room." or "this is unacceptable behavior, you have lost your screen time today." It lights a match to a powder keg, but it's hard for me to let go of these methods because it's how I was raised.

I have to go with with aeh on this one, and say that it's critical that you and DW have an agreement (ironclad) about how to deal with tantrums. Smart kids will quickly(!) figure out who is the pushover. In our house it's DH, god love him.

I will also say (this from a parent who has also seen her child a flailing hot mess long after most children have given it up) that it's critical that you work on coping skills for your child and for yourself. I'm going to direct to the one of the website that I have found incredibly helpful to deal with meltdowns, aggression, disrespect, etc. It's called Empowering Parents http://www.empoweringparents.com. They have a product, and I'm not so interested in the product (that will be your decision), but they also have a wealth of articles, blogs, comment sections, etc. You will quickly find that you are not alone, that there are many households with challenging/struggling children.

I think that the Ross Greene book is good--and I agree that the sticker charts (been there, done that) did not work long in our house. Mine, was constantly seeking novelty- and there is only so much novelty that I will finance when he meets my request to put on his clothes Sticker charts at school was another matter- they worked beautifully in that environment.

Well once again, a lot of very interesting thoughts on that forum ...
First, quite a long time ago, grinity on that forum told me about "the transforming the difficult child workbook" which I bought and tried to follow but at that time we were so much in despair ragarding his school abilities that I focused in trying to solve them ... This is now partly done.
So, I grabbed back this book from its shelve and start reading it again. It more or less decribe what many of you propose me. First, reading that book makes me feel like a "bad" father but I stepped over this. I will try to follow the advice from this book and see. But, I have to talk about that with DW and translate (she can read English but unfortunately not as easily as myself).
Nevertheless, I will "try", because I am not sure to be able to be as calm as required. He is so provocative. Let's have two fresh examples :
1)Yesterday morning, he woke up at 7.30 am, made a lot of noise. I told him to stop because everybody was sleeping. He did for a few minutes, then got to his sister's keyboard and start playing loud. I told to stop. He answered me "no, I want to play, you cannot stop me". Afterwards, he did not want to come and have his breakfast. I asked him to come several time especially as DW was insiting. When I got to him quite upset, and told hime to come once again he asked me "Yes, dad who I hate from the deepest of my heart". I said nothing and go away. I mean it is a hard context to be calm and positive...
2) This morning (sunday), he started yelling and crying at 7.30 am, because he forgot to fill up the battery of his camera and cannot find the cables. I told him that he will not have them unless asking me gently. He did but 10 min later. This morning DW, DD and DS had to go to a scientific exhibition. 10 min before going, he still was nor dressed nor had eat his breafast in spite of our periodic reminders (which were actually more and more "nervous"). Among things he told was "I do not care about that exhibition" (which I know it is not true)and actually did act as if he do not care. He was more concerned by his camera not being completely charged. We finally told him that DW and DD will go without him, if he did not move ... He still told he do not care ! Then he finally got dressed I decided complimenting him, but DW was so upset with him that she went on with putting pressure on him. He reacted by saying that he got dressed for nothing but he finally did what was necessary to go. But, why did he turn us that nuts, why is he so negative ? It is an enigma to me.
By the way, I told DW to be also positive with him to encourage him. She refused ... I do not blame her. It so hard. Sometimes (like this morning) I just want to quit all this.

Cammon you are right: the more we are upset, the more he is defiant doing exactly the things to get the more nuts as possible. Often, he said that he will not do anything for a yelling dumb (I guess he talks about myself then :))

I will look at Ross Greene and the enpoweringparents website.

thanx

In solidarity raoulpetite- my DS woke up this morning and tried to irritate the household out of bed. When the rest of his antics didn't work, he turned on his keyboard. The house was woken up with a rousing rendition of "House of the Rising Sun."

I've read over all the excellent suggestions here. But I'm wondering if you've discussed his behavior with his doctor? It seems well out of the norm for a 10-year-old and I'm wondering if there could be a medical reason?

Well, we will try to discuss with his doctor, if he is available and willing to speak with us (both conditions being hard to obtain simultaneously) ... Moreover, I am always afraid of the French way of psychology thoughts (Freud, the link with the mother, Oedipus complex and other craps)... We'll see.

regarding the behavior, he is out-of-the-norm since he is born ... He is a teenager in rebellion since he is 6 . May be he'll behave like an adult next year

I think syo means a non-psychiatric medical reason.

Hello my Dear Friends,
Good for you Raoulpetite, for stepping over your bad feelings and being willing to try something new! Very Brave and Courageous.

As for 'why does he do it?' - it is because he gets emotional connection with you in a intense enough way when he 'drives you crazy.' He needs this emotional connection the way he needs air and food and water, because the world is a very scary place to a child who is gifted and sees more of the world then he is emotionally ready to handle.

So please keep trying. Recognize yourself for the greatness of trying something new and uncomfortable. We gifted people are famous for only liking to do what we do well, so give yourself extra points for doing something you are a beginner at. Also use your words of praise on your wife for all the many, many efforts she makes for your family.

A little hint about compliments. In the beginging, it maybe too much for you, your wife and your son to say 'That's great.' In the beginning I recommend to just narrate what you see. Them knowing that you have their attention will fill their souls with warmth.

Try during a time that things are not so very bad.
If my child says, 'I hate you.' I say - I love that you feel safe enough with me to tell my your thoughts.
If my wife or husband says, 'This can't possibly work' I say - I know, it seems impossible, and it maybe is a big waste of time, but I can tell that you are watching what I am doing, and I thank you for noticing me even when you don't agree. It shows how much you love me.

Seriously, who is going to walk away from that?

Here's a little secrete, after a while of giving compliments, or even noticings, your son will be starting to believe that he can get your attention without going to such a bother. Then you will put in the 'Very Boring - No' part. Remember to say 'No' at the first sign of misbehavior, because it's a lot easier to not get super-angry if he is only doing a small wrong thing. Then turn around and do the noticing. During the 'Yesterday morning' story, he DID actually stop being loud for a few minutes, so during those few moments, give him a ton of attention, one to one. It's very very difficult to do, but do it as if your life depended on it. It's worth it.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I just wanted to say that it does get better. My son had frequent metldowns when he was 9, then it started to get better.
Once he is improving, the relatiosnhip with his dad and me started to change for better as well. Hang in there.

I'm just really struck by the signs of remorse he shows. In my experience, kids who chose to have tantrums to manipulate others do not show remorse for them. (My parents fostered a teenager with psychopathic tendencies - he often had calculated tantrums which stopped instantly if my parents did what he wanted, and he never acted remorseful about them.) In contrast, kids who really can't control themselves sometimes try to pretend they don't feel remorse, but deep down their guilt over their behaviour is harming their self-esteem, so many of these kids will turn around and say horrible things about themselves.

So I think his guilt and insulting himself over his misbehaviour is a pretty clear sign that he isn't choosing to do this - or at least not 'freely choosing'. (Sometimes a meltdown is the best choice available to a child with poor coping skills.)

What medication is he on? The reason I ask is because we were having very strange behavior from DD9 with ADHD after her medication wore off. She was going through rebound and became "manic", emotional, and some of the ADHD behaviors escalated and were worse than if she hadn't been medicated at all. In the past when we have tried to stop the medication she goes into this truly scary state and we think "obviously she has to be medicated if that's how bad she is without the medication", but she was in that truly scary state because of rebound. When we finally took her off for good, she was impaired for over a week and then finally settled down. If you think it could be that-- that the behaviors escalate when the meds wear off, I would talk to the prescribing doc. See if there might be a better medication or a way to add onto it to get more coverage.