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    Joined: Feb 2012
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    Quote
    Were expectations proactively managed regarding the result of behavior choices? For example, "A tantrum today will result in loss of TV privileges tomorrow."

    From the child's point of view, it may be that he never knows what to expect. It may appear that adults cannot be trusted, but rather make up arbitrary rules on the fly, according to their moods.

    Well definitely, we are taking care of this: he is always aware of what is going on. We are proactive ... but he is more proactive than us. I mean that we should be anticipating everything ...Almost impossible


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    I second the Explosive Child book/method.

    I will take a look. See if available in France ...

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    Do you think it's lack of impulse control? Does he have necessary tools to handle his anger/frustration? Can you help him verbalize his emotions?
    I guess he is impulsive, not under control then. What tools ? He is so "crazy" then that I do not know how to make im verbalize anything ? Hints ?


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    I had to remind myself last night _again_ that my child is lacking the skills to behave and not intentionally misbehaves. With that attitude, I can teach him how to behave in difficult situations.

    He is perfectly aware that he misbehaved. When everything was over yesterday, I tried to have a talk with him when I got him to bed. He just told me that it is over and asked to get to something else.

    Anotherday, I insisted on having an answer. I asked him what is the point, I told him that he gets everyone sad, that he's also doing harm to himself and it is not a constructive attitude. He got to the point to cry and scream several times that he is a big bastard ("con" in French). He seems then unstoppable. I just took him in my arms to confort him. I just wanted him to understand not make him cry ...

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    Also, instead of looking at individual incidents (e.g. throwing things after being told no TV), try to look at the bigger picture. Why did he do that? Because he was frustrated being told no TV, but he couldn’t verbalize it. Teaching him how to express his emotions will go a long way.
    I think about that ... but once again, he seems then not to be able to express anything else but the frustration.

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    Just remember, you are not a bad parent. Good luck.

    Well many times, I am completely disarmed and feel like not being a good father especially when getting upset

    Last edited by raoulpetite; 10/17/14 08:33 AM.

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    If it is a time issue, as MON is suggesting - one thing too is to maybe use a timer. I do this with DS when it is play time, because I can say "we have only 10 minutes to play/build" but when the time is up, he does not think 10 minutes has already passed... but with a timer, he knows how much time has passed, and when the timer buzzes, there is usually no confrontation about moving to the next activity.

    For things like books at the table (our kids like to bring toys), one thing I recall seeing at a school that I thought was neat - they had a basket outside each classroom for the kids that could not bear to leave a toy in the car, and the kids know that their toys will be returned at the end of the day. For our kids, we move their toys out of physical reach but in plain sight on the table... and that has helped deflect tears over having to leave something they were absorbed by and don't want to leave for a meal.

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    Originally Posted by master of none
    What sticks out to me: He is not happy or proud to get his way. He is upset with himself and wishes he/the situation were different.

    Yes, but he realizes only after a while.

    Originally Posted by master of none
    I think you are at the point where you and your wife have to forget the "reasons" for the tantrums and analyze them for ways to bring more peace to the family. If your son starts to feel success, that he can change his behavior, then you will be on the road to better peace. There are many, many thoughts on tantrums and you have to sift through and adapt to your own situation. When they suggest techniques, don't just try it. Think about what kind of problem that would work for. And if it doesn't fit, don't do it.
    Well we tried so many things from being kind with him even when being insulted to using "force". Nothing works ... He is so irrational then.

    Originally Posted by master of none
    If he were mine, I'd be looking at what upsets him. It seems that he loses track of time and then becomes angry that time has passed and his plans are ruined. You can anticipate this. You have a good schedule in place already. You can say, DS, if you want to watch TV, you'll have to be quick. Do you want me to help you stay on track? (My mantra is "time passes even when you are doing something else". I think it's hard for kids at 10 to really get a sense of time, so I'd help him with it. Mine at 14 is starting to be able to be able to gauge time and plan accordingly but he still will be disappointed when he gets distracted and runs out of time.
    Yes, time is a big weakness of him. He still asks if it lunch time or souper time (it is much rarer now than it was). DW wants him to manage this by himself just by looking at the clocks (w have several wall-clocks in the house). I just tell her that we have to remind him the time is running because he cannot do it by himself. But, she does not want that so I just quit this. She tells that from knowing he will not have what he wants he will care about time ... But anyway, when I am with him I told him regularly that he has to speed up ... well, it changes nothing. He is so in what he is doing that except from doing things for him nothing will happen. And as he is now 10, we cannot act as he were 4....

    Originally Posted by master of none
    Think about the tantrums, you and your wife and analyze what happened before, what triggered it? Could you tell it was coming? How?. And if DS seems willing, ask him if your analysis is correct. Then work together, the three of you on what DS can do differently, how the environment can change (BUT don't involve DS so much that he is able to start blaming you for his behavior. He must always own it. You are just there to help him learn to manage himself).

    The main trigger for tantrums : frustration (quite linked to time). But he is not behaving as a king-kid because when he wants something in a mall, if we refuse (most of the time) he is just not happy and never enters tantrums (or once). But he can also enter in huge anger if we ask him to stop playing because we have to go to the cinema (he enjoies that). Then, it is not truly a frustration because we are going to please him. It is more a matter of time and eing too much into what is doing.

    Originally Posted by master of none
    And while reading about tantruming, you'll hear all sorts of things to do, how you should behave, but the reality is that a tantrumming child is irrational. It's already too late by that time. Your only role is really to try to help him calm down. (that's why some do well with ignoring if child is doing it for attention, others do well with calm voice if child gets upset by parent reaction) What ever helps him to calm is what you do. While ignoring works for most kids--some kids do not have the capacity to self calm and ignoring them just makes them feel abandoned and alone with nobody to help. Given the long standing history of tantrums, I'm willing to bet he's one of the kids who needs help to calm down.

    You're definitely right ! Sometimes is anger turns into despair and then we have to confort him. I often tell him then that we love him but we just cannot let him act this way.


    Originally Posted by master of none
    Ask your DS what would help him calm (but again don't take responsibility and don't promise to do it). He may know or he may not have any clue. You guys are working together to solve this.


    Tell him the most important thing to you is that he and the family are safe and that you will do whatever is necessary for that. Perhaps he needs to go into his bed with his favorite punching surface, or perhaps he needs to run, bang into walls, or whatever. As long as it's safe, even if it's weird, allow it. He has some big problems to deal with and he is lucky to have a mom and dad who are sticking with him and working so hard to help him.

    I'll think about that... Thanx

    Last edited by raoulpetite; 10/17/14 09:28 AM.

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    Originally Posted by notnafnaf
    If it is a time issue, as MON is suggesting - one thing too is to maybe use a timer. I do this with DS when it is play time, because I can say "we have only 10 minutes to play/build" but when the time is up, he does not think 10 minutes has already passed... but with a timer, he knows how much time has passed, and when the timer buzzes, there is usually no confrontation about moving to the next activity.

    For things like books at the table (our kids like to bring toys), one thing I recall seeing at a school that I thought was neat - they had a basket outside each classroom for the kids that could not bear to leave a toy in the car, and the kids know that their toys will be returned at the end of the day. For our kids, we move their toys out of physical reach but in plain sight on the table... and that has helped deflect tears over having to leave something they were absorbed by and don't want to leave for a meal.

    We did try timers ... Did work for a while and then, nothing ... ALike many things, the novelty works and then he drops ...

    Let me be more precise : it is not a matter of book at the table... He usually that a book in his bedroom or in the living room and stay where the book is ...


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    We found the "Transforming the Difficult Child" book mentioned above very helpful.

    We initially just implemented the one section where one compliments the child on the large number of things they are doing right and absolutely ignores everything else ("Thank you for closing the door!" "Thank you for using your fork!"). Partly because we couldn't fully agree on the rest initially as my DH and I naturally have different styles of parenting. It may seem like not a very big strategy to just compliment the child and ignore their bad behavior, but this stage took months for us and was extremely difficult.

    But doing it helped so much! DS initially (weeks to a couple months) reacted by sometimes doing whatever we complimented him on the opposite on purpose the next time. That was very frustrating to us parents as we then had to ignore the bad behavior (leaving the door open or "forgetting" to use a fork).

    DH and I bonded through it, we needed eachother's strength to not react to DS sometimes, we agreed we could grab the other's hand for support and the other would always support or acknowledge them. Both of us would sometimes squeeze the other's hand way too hard as we were so stressed! To this day, two years later, when DS is being particularly annoying we find ourselves grabbing the other's hand and it's still very helpful in making us feel like a team.

    Anyways, this is getting long but it did all work in the end, after some months we had a better overall relationship with DS both from his perspective and from ours, the overall tension diminished a bit. Then we were able to come up with a new list of house rules that DS genuinely agreed to and genuinely attempted to follow and which we were more calmly and consistently able to oversee. It included no screaming/loud-yelling (so very loud tantrums then are not allowed and it actually worked!).

    The consequence was only a few minute time out. The book suggests the child should see it as just a time to breathe, a little break, but DS always saw it as a punishment, it still worked fine.

    One rule we had on the list that reminds me of your DS is "no hurting anyone or anything" because DS would hit himself when upset (threatening suicide is a similarly violent gesture). Luckily the no hitting/hurting rule applies to him also and he therefore stopped. Almost magically, actually, it took only a couple of times pointing that was on the rule list, and receiving a short time out. (But the rules alone wouldn't have worked without the prior many months of establishing a calmer safer relationship with him).

    DS is still very much a high strung person prone to drama, to holding onto negatives, not an easygoing person. He will talk about this or that awful thing and it turns out it happened when he was 3. He will perhaps not have an easy life in that regard. But as a family member things are working much better.

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    I want to let you know that we have dealt with this issue intermittently throughout with DS7 (almost eight). I noticed that the issue ramps up when I am punitive and directive in my approach. Sometimes, I've had enough and will say things like "go to your room." or "this is unacceptable behavior, you have lost your screen time today." It lights a match to a powder keg, but it's hard for me to let go of these methods because it's how I was raised.

    I have to go with with aeh on this one, and say that it's critical that you and DW have an agreement (ironclad) about how to deal with tantrums. Smart kids will quickly(!) figure out who is the pushover. In our house it's DH, god love him.

    I will also say (this from a parent who has also seen her child a flailing hot mess long after most children have given it up) that it's critical that you work on coping skills for your child and for yourself. I'm going to direct to the one of the website that I have found incredibly helpful to deal with meltdowns, aggression, disrespect, etc. It's called Empowering Parents http://www.empoweringparents.com. They have a product, and I'm not so interested in the product (that will be your decision), but they also have a wealth of articles, blogs, comment sections, etc. You will quickly find that you are not alone, that there are many households with challenging/struggling children.

    I think that the Ross Greene book is good--and I agree that the sticker charts (been there, done that) did not work long in our house. Mine, was constantly seeking novelty- and there is only so much novelty that I will finance when he meets my request to put on his clothes smile Sticker charts at school was another matter- they worked beautifully in that environment.

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    Well once again, a lot of very interesting thoughts on that forum ...
    First, quite a long time ago, grinity on that forum told me about "the transforming the difficult child workbook" which I bought and tried to follow but at that time we were so much in despair ragarding his school abilities that I focused in trying to solve them ... This is now partly done.
    So, I grabbed back this book from its shelve and start reading it again. It more or less decribe what many of you propose me. First, reading that book makes me feel like a "bad" father but I stepped over this. I will try to follow the advice from this book and see. But, I have to talk about that with DW and translate (she can read English but unfortunately not as easily as myself).
    Nevertheless, I will "try", because I am not sure to be able to be as calm as required. He is so provocative. Let's have two fresh examples :
    1)Yesterday morning, he woke up at 7.30 am, made a lot of noise. I told him to stop because everybody was sleeping. He did for a few minutes, then got to his sister's keyboard and start playing loud. I told to stop. He answered me "no, I want to play, you cannot stop me". Afterwards, he did not want to come and have his breakfast. I asked him to come several time especially as DW was insiting. When I got to him quite upset, and told hime to come once again he asked me "Yes, dad who I hate from the deepest of my heart". I said nothing and go away. I mean it is a hard context to be calm and positive...
    2) This morning (sunday), he started yelling and crying at 7.30 am, because he forgot to fill up the battery of his camera and cannot find the cables. I told him that he will not have them unless asking me gently. He did but 10 min later. This morning DW, DD and DS had to go to a scientific exhibition. 10 min before going, he still was nor dressed nor had eat his breafast in spite of our periodic reminders (which were actually more and more "nervous"). Among things he told was "I do not care about that exhibition" (which I know it is not true)and actually did act as if he do not care. He was more concerned by his camera not being completely charged. We finally told him that DW and DD will go without him, if he did not move ... He still told he do not care ! Then he finally got dressed I decided complimenting him, but DW was so upset with him that she went on with putting pressure on him. He reacted by saying that he got dressed for nothing but he finally did what was necessary to go. But, why did he turn us that nuts, why is he so negative ? It is an enigma to me.
    By the way, I told DW to be also positive with him to encourage him. She refused ... I do not blame her. It so hard. Sometimes (like this morning) I just want to quit all this.

    Cammon you are right: the more we are upset, the more he is defiant doing exactly the things to get the more nuts as possible. Often, he said that he will not do anything for a yelling dumb (I guess he talks about myself then :))

    I will look at Ross Greene and the enpoweringparents website.

    thanx


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    In solidarity raoulpetite- my DS woke up this morning and tried to irritate the household out of bed. When the rest of his antics didn't work, he turned on his keyboard. The house was woken up with a rousing rendition of "House of the Rising Sun."



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    I've read over all the excellent suggestions here. But I'm wondering if you've discussed his behavior with his doctor? It seems well out of the norm for a 10-year-old and I'm wondering if there could be a medical reason?

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