Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Reading Group Determined By Writing Ability?

I don't know but I know what it feels like to do maths witha group about 10 levels below you. It is stressful and I was an adult being paid to be there.

I think I would try and get testing and independant comprehension testing. If you have proof their is comprehension just not writing it would be easier to argue. If you have proof of comprehension and a 2e diagnosis then she should get accomodations.

Unfortunately it sounds like normal craziness in schools.

I can't really help but I can tell you that your daughter isn't alone. I am going through this with my son in High School. His reading ability is very high but his current writing level has forced him out of the honors classes. He is very frustrated at the books they are reading in his current English Class, and by the level of discussions in the class.

What I am currently doing is getting him a tutor to work on his writing, and we are hoping to get a few accommodations out of the school based on the testing we had done this summer.

I used to help my son's teacher when they had reading groups. This was in 1 grade (may be 3 grade is different), but they did not write anything during that time. They read aloud, talked, discussed the book, answered questions, but writing was done at home.
However, when the teacher did reading assessment, there was some brief writing involved. So, if your DD now is, for instance, at level 28, this means she passed the test at this level, right? Then she was able to write whatever she was supposed to write at this level, or the assessment differs at your school?.

We actually did try this in our second e-mail with the teacher stating how the low level could be exacerbating the problem to which she responded that at this time she is committed to the book and will not re-evaluate until mid-November.

I am embarrassed to say but the book is "See You Later, Alligator" in the Time Warp Trio series. It's been listed as a gifted reader book for 5 and 6 year olds and the class is spending 5 WEEKS on it. It's exactly like Magic Treehouse which DD read long ago. At home she just finished Harry Potter #4 and wants me to get back to the library for #5 this week. And this is for "high ability" reading.

Porosenok96 - Yes, they use DRA2 for assessment and the teacher has her at level 40 (level R). I have always been somewhat skeptical of this assessment because of it's subjectivity and how it never aligns with MAP. The group that is actually reading the book DD wants to read is at DRA 50. This book is DD's lexile level (hence her interest)but I am still investigating what DRA50 involves. Her MAP Lexile is 771-921. Most R books are in the 600's and low 700's. I know there has been discussion of the usefulness of Lexiles but I still like to see them and the related books.

I have thought about asking to sit in on the reading group to verify DD's statement that it is incredibly easy and filled with language-challenged readers (while the teacher says there are no problems in her e-mail to us). But this may be a nuclear option for the rest of the year. Typically I have found when a parent verifies what's happening, the teacher has found it more difficult to "wobble" as DH calls it.

We have conferences coming up in a few weeks and maybe it's best to wait until a face to face to really drive the message home. Perhaps finding out the DRA50 level and what it involves may be more of a bargaining point?

I would go for testing but DH does not want to. He feels it is not an issue and is wanting to wait until the next book choice to see if she makes an improvement.

My DS is also in third grade. He is also being penalized for handwriting via both a penmanship grade AND his papers being marked down when they are illegible. I feel he's being penalized twice and intend to speak to the teacher about it at conferences. When he writes by hand, he does exactly what you mentioned your DD doing.


Last year, it wasn't a problem but with his move to an HG class and third grade, the writing requirements have increased significantly. When he writes on the computer, it's no problem. I know because I just enjoyed a weekend of watching him write a seven page (double-spaced, 14 pt font) paper wherein he expressed his ideas clearly and self-corrected his punctuation, grammar, capitalization, and spelling. His fav thing right now is spell and grammar check; he will deliberately misspell something just so he can correct it. ;-)

So this child, who can clearly write, can NOT clearly write by hand. Even I struggle to read his handwriting sometimes and he has to focus to make it neat. We are waiting on the school psychologist to get back to me as I want to have him evaluated.

Sadly, I have no advice on how to talk to the teacher as I am terrible at advocating. We are fortunate to be in a school district where they identify and support gifted students; without that, I would definitely have to have him tested outside and then have some kind of accommodations written.

Must be See You Later, Gladiator, right? I don't think this book is so bad for third grade. It isn't high-level reading, but I have read the series and would say they're a bit more sophisticated than Magic Treehouse in approach and vocab. It's not vastly far off of your child's tested reading level if that is in the 700s. My opinions may be unpopular, but I'm not sure I'd fight this one to the death if you see other language-based weaknesses. Now, if there are really kids in her group who can't read that's anothe rmatter, but if they literally cannot read they shouldn't be in a group with this book, which is on or slightly above grade level for third. (As I say, I remember the series and it's sophisticated in a way that MTH is not.)

According to this chart
http://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/
level 40 corresponds to the beginning of 4 grade. How is it possible for non-English speaking students to be on a such high level (unless your teacher doesn't follow her assessments and assigns levels by some different criteria)? If these kids actually passed the test at level 40, there is no way they can barely read, they must be advanced readers for their age/grade.
Did your DD actually pass the DRA test for level 50, or she just wants to be there because books are more interesting?

I agree with your DH - teacher definitely will not be happy. But you can ask the teacher to show you your DD's latest DRA test, and you don't have to wait until the conference. Did they have DRA testing this school year, or the teacher uses results from the end of the last year?

I'm going to look at this from a little bit of a different direction - rather than focusing on the reading level, I'm curious about her writing.


It sounds like they are working on analysis of text rather than just reading comprehension in the reading groups in this class, and the students are expected to illustrate their knowledge through writing. If the challenge with writing is limited to handwriting ability, I'd request that your dd be allowed to keyboard and then see if there is an improvement noted by the teacher, and if so, allow her to move up to a group that's an overall better fit. OTOH, if the challenge is with getting her thoughts out in writing (expression, not handwriting), then I'd listen and think through the teacher's point of view on her placement. It's quite possible she's placed where she needs to be based on writing - and that *might* be an appropriate way to place her based on what the classroom/curriculum goal is.


Even though she's in the "lowest" group in the classroom, she's in a gifted classroom (I think). I'd try not to think of "lowest" as horribly low, it's just a lower group relative to a classroom full of high ability students.


I have a tough time making sense of this, given the DRA level of "See You Later Gladiator". I would definitely want to observe and see if this is true - if it is, then you need to advocate for a change for your dd. I'd be careful about one thing though - it's possible that the ESL students (English as Second Language) may need to ask some questions for clarification of words or grammar - but at the same time they might be able to fully comprehend and provide analysis at the same level as your dd is. I'd try to avoid focusing on the ESL kids unless you observe and see the entire reading discussion is spent on low-level help. If it's just asking a question here or there about a word meaning, I'd try to help my dd see it in a positive light - the teacher is helping those students access their curriculum. Not knowing an English word doesn't necessarily mean they are at a lower-level reading ability. This is in some ways, exactly what you are hoping the teacher will do for your dd - not hold her back in her reading group because of her challenges with expressing herself in writing.


I'd talk to the teacher to clarify what the learning objective really is, and then share that with your dd and between the two of you talk through how your dd thinks she's already mastered that objective, what work can she show that illustrates mastery etc. Then have a conversation between the three of you (you, dd, teacher) to discuss whether or not it's really all a repeat for dd and should she move up.


Reading and writing are going to become more and more intertwined as your child progresses in school. Although they may seem like two totally unrelated skills, they are, in fact closely integrated throughout many subjects in school. Not just language arts, but science, social studies, etc - students are asked to listen to lectures, watch videos, read books/etc and then relate what they understand and what they've learned through writing. If your dd has a relative weakness in written expression this is a *really* good time in her school career to be working on it - and that might mean focusing on text that is easier than she is capable of reading in order to simplify the writing process to the level she's working at. Throwing her into an advanced reading group where she can't keep up with the writing isn't going to help develop her writing skills. OTOH, she is also not going to (in real life) lose any of her word decoding skills etc - so she's not going to be moving backwards in the level of books she's capable of reading for pleasure. What I've seen with my children (irregardless of level of giftedness, and once they are past the basic step of learning how to recognize letters/words), is that reading makes them better readers - as long as they are reading they are improving their skills. So if she's reading lower level books during class, but she's still reading challenging books for fun, she's going to progress.


Since this is what your teacher has observed, rather than approaching this in a confrontational way and pushing for the higher level reading group, I'd ask the teachers for specific ways you can help work with your dd to improve her writing skills. Ask what her goals are re writing, and what will enable your dd to catch up enough to be moved to the upper level reading groups.


I'd probably delve into this more with dd - why doesn't she feel "ready" to write? Do you have any ideas what's holding her back? Have you tried letting her keyboard and does that make writing easier for her? Is she able to answer questions verbally that she can't with writing? I might ask the teacher to have your dd give oral responses rather than written in her reading group for a few class periods just to see if her answers are noticeably more in-depth and improved. I really do think this is an important piece of data - it will help you understand if it's handwriting that's holding her back or if it's how to organize thoughts/etc relative to the types of questions being asked about the books. If it's handwriting, give her a keyboard and request that she be moved up. If it's organizing/generating thoughts etc - work on that and leave her where she is for now until you see she's truly ready to move up.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I completely agree with what polarbear has said here. DS8 has to write sentences about his MATH problems. It's no longer acceptable to just solve the problem; the child must also explain WHY their answer is reasonable or correct.

If she's got handwriting issues or difficulties with grammar and writing, now is the perfect time to get that help she needs.