Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Reading Group Determined By Writing Ability?

Last year (2nd grade ) DD tested on Winter map in reading at 99% but because of a lack of challenging instruction and a bad testing environment ended the year at 92% with no growth.

This year (3rd grade) she tested in the fall at 96% (after reading over the summer and making full growth for last year) but in class was placed in the lowest reading group with a text several hundred Lexile below her NWEA assessed level because of "writing issues".

She is in a group with children who are barely fluent in English and most of the time is spent decoding text for them and explaining basic grammar. She feels she is learning nothing in the group and it's basically a repeat of work done in earlier grades.

The level is below her DRA from last year, below NWEA's recommendations, yet the teacher insists she is placed correctly.

Compared to her friends in her classroom she is a horrible writer. I have seen it myself. But at this stage in her development, she is not able to provide full analysis to the teacher's liking (and on the level of her friends) in order for the teacher to allow her to read at a higher level (even though they all read the same high level of books outside of school). DD is not a writer. And when she writes, she is a slow writer as well.

She is supposed to be in high ability reading this year but has not read anything in her class even at a 4th grade level due to the writing issues.

My impression of guided reading is that students are there to focus on the text and comprehension strategies of text and not focusing on writing. I see the 2 as completely different skillsets. Why should one's reading level be dependent upon writing skill? MAP does not test for this correlation.

Her teacher insists that DD's lower writing skills will not allow her to participate in the higher reading groups in a meaningful way. She refers to the students in the higher group as being able to complete the work at a "faster pace" than my DD could.

I would like advice on how to tackle this problem. DD has stated that she feels she is not "ready" to write. I feel this as well. She can hobble along but she generally detests writing. I feel it will take her some time to develop just as her father (he did not write well until 7th grade).

If there is no way out, I see basically another year wasted in class with no reading instruction taking place (DD helping out the Japanese kids who "can't read" according to her) a subsequent fall in MAP scores and another summer of playing catchup.

I would appreciate any advice on how to handle this problem as the teacher seems reticent to DD changing to a higher group until she is writing accordingly which I don't see happening for some time.

Personally, I would address the writing/analytic/critical thinking about the text and being able to write about it skills.

If the comprehension is there (and I would check this for myself with my child) then I would work on whatever the block was between comprehension and being able to articulate that understanding in written form.

Once comfortable that any gaps/blocks had been addressed and I was confident that she would be able to demonstrate the reqired mastery, I would go back to the
school and insist that the reassess her reading/writing skills.

If that didn't work I would scrimp and save to get private testing conducted and escalate with the school/school district to get things changed with objectively gathered evidence of mastery in hand.

If all the above hit walls I would find an online class for my kid and ignore whatever feedback the 'teacher' provided vis-a-vis progress in the classroom and move on...

YMMV

ditto mon. This is also how I have taught my #2 for many years: spelling at the lowest level, writing a level up, reading at a higher level, and read-aloud/scribe for all other subjects, so they could be at DC's reasoning level. Kids with dysgraphic/dyslexic profiles often need to have all of their academic subjects decoupled, even more than for the usual GT asynchrony.

It will be important to figure out if there is a 2e involved in your DC's situation.

This was DD's profile for many years, too. As far as we've been able to tell, her written expression isn't the result of anything in particular save her asynchronous development (well, okay-- possible connective tissue disorder limiting hand stability for WRITING).

Her writing is PROGRESSING nicely, but is still about on par with "about what the bright 18yo is capable of" which makes it appear to be an area of "weakness" relative to the rest of her profile as a student/individual. Her reading skills are well beyond that and have been more or less static for at least 4-5y.

Language arts was a nightmare during elementary, and even worse (if anything) during middle school.

The reading levels were years and years below her needs, and the writing level was... well, at times it was a complete struggle, and at the same time, the motivation to write didn't exist, either-- because, see, the reading selections weren't compelling or on-level for her.

It was maddening.

Keyboarding skills definitely helped. Additional afterschooling in reading helped. It was strategic on our part to frame Language Arts instruction as "writing" class. Because that was the purpose of that course.

So I want to reassure you that in an EG/PG child, it's possible that with keyboarding introduced into the picture, this is still just asynchronous development and not something 2e.

As time has gone on, the gap has closed as literacy skills become about other ideas, and not about "reading" or "writing" in particular.

ita with mon!

polarbear

So, if a kid had two broken arms would she send them back to pre-school? The teacher's reasoning/method is distorted; defying the school's placement tools? In addition to above suggestions, I would want to have an informal discussion with the special education coordinator at the school. That would at least establish the texture of things at the school to know where your fight lies.

DS8 has the same profile, but our school and teachers have consistently worked to remove barriers. Almost too much, in that we are now trying to get help for his handwriting.

By all means try out the suggestions above but I'd add that reading progresses via practice. As long as your daughter is reading appropriate amounts and at interesting levels outside school then I wouldn't worry as much about the year being wasted from a learning perspective with reading. I especially wouldn't get caught up in agonizing over lexile scores and 90+% RIT percentiles.

I accidentally erased a longer reply, so this will be quick, but my bottom line was that you need to have her tested for an expressive language disorder. My son had some fine motor issues, but learning to type (which he did) wouldn't have solved his writing issues. He needed a lot of specialized help, but putting him in a low reading group would have just made him feel awful, be bored, and lose interest. He had an IEP from 3rd grade (when it was diagnosed) through 7th, for speech and expressive language (he had one previously, but not for expressive language) and although his writing has improved, it has never reached the level of his reading. This summer, as he was doing the summer work for his freshman honors English and AP World History classes, it was painful to watch him writing (soooo slow, and at times really struggling to make his point), BUT - even if he struggles a bit with the writing aspect, I know he is in the right level classes. This is a kid who already has a 34 in ACT reading, so I know he can do it, he just can't always express it. He would be bored out of his mind in a regular-level history or English.
I think it's ridiculous for the teacher to place her in a reading group based on her writing. If this is something your school will do going forward, I'd definitely look into testing her for expressive language issues or fine motor issues, and I'd also look into out-of-level testing so you can show just how advanced she is with reading and advocate for her to be put into a group at the right level.
BTW, my son was always, always in the highest reading group/gifted classes, and his writing didn't hinder guided reading in any way - if there was group writing, he wasn't usually chosen to do it :)- but he did just fine.

Thank you everyone for your replies. My DH and I have differing opinions on the writing issue. He feels it is not as big of a deal as I feel it is. I notice all the time that DD has alot of misspellings of common sight words when she is writing. She does make sentences but it's the forgetfulness of spelling, capitalization, punctuation at this age level that bothers me. When she writes fast it gets worse. We go over it again and again yet she always forgets. Overall, she can make sentences and write paragraphs but without seeing the level of the class, I can't tell if she is doing that great. Her thoughts make sense to me when we talk about texts. I have always felt she understands what's going on. I was glad to see she did meet her growth targets after summer (even though she couldn't get above the score she had before).

However, my greater concern when we brought the issue up to DD's teacher is her latest response:

In high ability classrooms, we don’t just work on a vertical jump in reading, but focusing on reading at a deeper level. So, while we might be reading a novel that is a little lower than our current reading level, we are working on discussing and questioning at a higher, deeper level

This sends up a red flag for me as we had the "deeper understanding" talk with DD's last teacher when she said she wouldn't be able to do division and DD had to stay on low math.

She also says little lower. The novel is 4 levels lower than DD's ability level. Whoever heard of reading at a significantly lower level in order to gain a better understanding? DD says the questions are all easy (like Master of None stated - like what are the character's names, where are they at, etc. - low level). DD said there was no difficult discussion and she is not learning anything. One boy in the group doesn't even speak English that well. There can't be any difficult discussion with him there. Also, she admits the book is below DD's level but says she is committed to the text until November.

How can she say DD is reading at a higher level and she has placed her at a higher level, but at this time she needs to be in the lowest reading group to gain "deeper understanding"? And that is her answer to providing high ability services? I'm very frustrated.

I would try the approach that you are concerned that, while YES, there is a significant gap between your DD's reading and writing skill set-- if she is trying to WRITE at her readiness level about literature that far below her readiness level in reading--

she may not be motivated to improve her writing skills as a means of communicating her ideas about what she is reading.

If nothing else, pushing the writing demands up a bit may force identification of a problem sooner, and in any event, it will send the message to your child that writing IS for communication of authentic ideas, not just regurgitation of comprehension at a basic level.