Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 239 guests, and 35 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    Amber Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    My son took the WISC a couple of weeks ago, and while I posted this on the testing board, I feel like I should ask about it on this board as well. He is tested HG, I feel he's more EG, but maybe I'm fooling myself. smile He qualified for DYS with his WJ-III, but his WISC GAI was 139.

    Here are his WISC scores,

    VCI 138
    similarities 17
    vocab 17
    comprehension 15

    PRI 127
    Block 16
    Pictures 14
    Matrix 13

    WMI 123
    digit span 14
    letter-number sequencing 14

    PSI 78
    coding 3 !?!?!
    Symbol search 9

    FSIQ 124
    GAI 139

    He took both the SB-V and WPPSI at 4 and scored 140 & 139 respectively. The wppsi 139 was with a 30 point discrepancy between verbal and non verbal. His verbal was 147.

    He did say that on the block part he went "slow on purpose." He pretends to be characters in books sometimes, and he wanted to be like the bullies in Big Nate and get in trouble. This doesn't explain the coding, but maybe he was just not in a good testing mood.

    He's always had "attention problems." He was diagnosed superficially at 5 with ADD, but I homeschool him so I make accommodations as I see the need.

    AEH mentioned NVLD as a possibility, and everything but the social aspects sounds like him. Coordination issues, fine motor weakness, etc.

    We are looking for a neuropsych now, but I really want to find someone who deals with gifted kids.

    The 3 in coding has really thrown me. I don't want to read too much into one score, but at the same time, I want to be proactive.

    Does anyone have experience with a scatter like this? How should I proceed?

    Thanks!


    I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 2,155
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: May 2013
    Posts: 2,155
    DD has around that spread but it's between PRI and PSI. PRI was 147 without extended norms and PSI was 94. In her case you can see it because she is slow with written work and hates writing. She has executive funcitoning issues related to ADHD and has very little sense of time. She can't even really eat a meal in a timely fashion because she spends so much time talking and fiddling with things. Today she spent 20 minutes in the shower making us late for school, then screamed at me "I don't have an internal clock, OK!?" DS7 said "yes you do, it's called your brain" (which I thought was hilarious coming from him because he's almost as bad). So my point is that we can see it in everyday life. DS also has a gap but not as big (maybe 30 points between PRI and PSI) and the neuropsych who assessed him said it could cause problems in that he's ready for higher level concepts but will appear "slow"...not a huge deal but accommodations may need to be made. If these aren't things you're dealing with, then I don't think you should be concerned with the score.

    If he has coordination issues, look into Developmental Coordination Disorder/Dyspraxia. Wikipedia has a good page and describes how these issues tend to tie together. Kids with DCD often have poor working memories (in terms of remembering what they are doing) and are scattered, and have spatial deficits.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    Amber Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    Haha! That sounds exactly like my ds. No internal clock, even with the possession of a brain. wink

    Thanks for the advice!


    I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 690
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 690
    Oh yes. DS12 has a 64 point spread. His VCI was 152 (no extended norms done) and his PSI was 88.

    He had hand pain when writing when he was younger and still has cramping when he writes a lot. He was late to tie his shoes, manipulate buttons etc. His hand writing is neat and small and his written expression isn't anywhere near as complex and deep as his verbal expression. He used to freeze up during timed tests and though he was first admitted to the AIG program in first grade (identified for other reasons by his kindy teacher) due to his math ability, he took minute math tests the whole of second grade and his time never changed.

    He was resistant to memorizing math facts, and I don't know why. He's not a lazy child. He despises repetition however, and I have a feeling that early on he learned to hide certain things about himself.

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    Originally Posted by Amber
    AEH mentioned NVLD as a possibility, and everything but the social aspects sounds like him. Coordination issues, fine motor weakness, etc.

    I think I've already mentioned this in the other thread, but just in case I didn't - my ds has a similarly large gap in PSI, although the coding isn't quite as low (but it's low!). Like your ds he also has symptoms that match many of the symptoms of NVLD, but not the social aspects. In my ds' case, the issue is Developmental Coordination Disorder (dyspraxia). Quite a few of the symptoms of NVLD, ADHD, DCD, and autism spectrum disorders overlap - that's why it's better to let a professional sort out what's up before investing a lot of time trying to figure out the diagnosis on your own. Definitely look closely at what's going on with your child - for example, are they having issues with a particular type of academic work, difficulties with fine motor etc - and go ahead and put accommodations in place as you can etc… but don't over think the actual diagnosis ahead of time.

    Quote
    We are looking for a neuropsych now, but I really want to find someone who deals with gifted kids.

    If you can find one that's great, but don't put off seeing a neuropsych if you can't. The neuropsych we've seen does *not* specialize in gifted kids - there is a psychologist local to us who tests children for gifted programs, but not a neuropsychologist who specifically works with gifted children. The neurospychologist worked out well for us - and the psychologist who sees a lot of gifted children didn't have the breadth of testing and background necessary to diagnose DCD vs NVLD etc.

    Quote
    The 3 in coding has really thrown me. I don't want to read too much into one score, but at the same time, I want to be proactive.

    FWIW, my dd who had vision issues scored *below* the 1st percentile on the coding test when she took the WISC (prior to diagnosis of her vision issues). She's fine! The low score was completely unrelated to anything other than not being able to focus on the symbols. With my ds, his low coding score was related to a larger issue that's required a lot more work to deal with… but he's doing really well too. Try not to let the number freak you out - I look at those low scores as data points, not defining points.

    Quote
    Does anyone have experience with a scatter like this? How should I proceed?

    Decide on a neuropsych, get your appointment and go from there. In the meantime, think through everything you see that might be an issue or challenge for your ds, so that you'll have your questions and concerns ready to go at your initial neuropsych intake appointment.
    [/quote]

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 448
    I don't have DS's numbers but he had about a 60 point spread as well. I do remember his coding being 2nd percentile (we tested at 6.5).

    We were encouraged to test by the school who thought that he was ADHD-Inattentive in grade 1 (he wasn't). He never seemed to have problems with fine motor. As an infant he refused to let us feed him and so he became a master at picking peas up one by one and would cut up meat with a knife and fork while friend's kids were still being spoon fed (I don't mean that in a judgmental way, just as a we often got stares when we ate in public kind of way). He was also fine with teeny tiny lego that was geared for kids twice his age. He was speech delayed (absolutely no words until we started speech therapy at 19 months which he "graduated" from at age 3). Writing was a very slow and painful process for him. He's still really slow (he's 8) and messy. His written output is like it is from a different kid when you compare to what comes out of his mouth in conversation. He is not fond of memorizing math facts and I think he often figures it out from scratch each time rather than memorizing times tables which of course slows him down. He DESPISES repetition which teachers often confuse with laziness. He isn't lazy if it is "new".

    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 690
    K
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 690
    Chay,

    My ds sounds a lot like yours!! Mine also liked the Legos and disliked many of the same tasks as yours.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    Amber Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 228
    My DS is obsessed with legos. This is why I'm so confused as to why his handwriting is not amazing! lol


    I can spell, I just can't type on my iPad.
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 381
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Aug 2012
    Posts: 381
    I want to add another "My kid, too." My DS6 was recently assessed to have a 94 point spread between VCI (extended norms - 188) and processing speed (94).

    Amber - I hope you don't mind a little related discussion. Can we use this thread to explore processing speed measurements a little?

    Having done a ton of reading - I have a working hypothesis, but can't seem to find research to back it up. I do believe there is a processing issue. But I don't think that's the only thing going on. I'll give a couple anecdotes to illustrate:

    Anecdote 1: DS has a whopping difference between processing speed and VCI/PRI. That does not reconcile with his performance on the "name that supercar" game. This is a game with a picture of a supercar (e.g., Ferrari) covered by 20 squares in a 4X5 grid. You click squares to remove them one at a time. As quickly as you can, identify the car from 4 supplied answers. Your score is a function of difficulty, speed and accuracy.

    DS routinely kills this game, beating everybody's score - and this includes car nerds from all over the world. Usually he needs to turn over exactly one square, either in the headlight or tail light area. And let me be clear - the answer is not "Ferrari." It has to be "Ferrari 458 Speciale." Very detailed answers selecting from closely related models.

    He also does this when we are driving on the highway. A fancy car will flash by. I ask, "Was that a Lotus?" "No, Mom - didn't you see the door handles? That was a Tesla Roadster. That one fools you every time doesn't it?" (It does.)

    This is Very. Rapid. Processing. For context, he also does this with sea creatures and gems/minerals.

    So - what gives. My working hypothesis is that these HG/EG/PG kids do have processing issues. But it's maybe not just speed. Or not speed at all. They are also processing an enormous volume of information that flashes into their brains when they observe. They gather in waaaay more information about everything, as compared to neurotypical folks. And they do it instantly. This brings me to anecdote 2, which I think illustrates how this volume factor can slow down ANSWERING, even if it doesn't slow down PROCESSING.

    Anecdote 2: While working on a budget, I scribbled a sum ($107+$12). Just for grins, I asked DS if he knew the answer. He stared at it for a long while, and finally answered "They should have the euro in England."

    As best he could explain, this is because my Dad taught me to write my "7" with a slash through it, like they do in Europe. This appears to have led to a long string of thoughts, naturally leading through Italian super cars (see above), whose price we often see listed in pounds in British car magazines. DS knew about how many dollars were in a pound, and how many dollars were in a euro, but got stuck trying to figure from that how many pounds were in a euro. He found this annoying and decided they should just use the euro in England.

    So - exactly what volume of "stuff" is a kid like DS processing when he sees something like "107+12"?

    Hypothetical example of how this rabbit-holing could play out: "Wow - this is the third time in a row that the correct answer on an IQ test is 'c'." That's weird. If it was a coin toss then, you might get the same answer 3 times in a row. But there are 4 possible answers here. That would seem to make 3 c's in a row unlikely. I wonder how I could figure out those odds. I mean, how does this compare to the odds of getting 3 aces in a poker hand. I think Max cheated when we were playing poker yesterday. I didn't see him cheat. But he got three of a kind a bunch of times. He must have been cheating. I don't want to play cards with him anymore. Hmmmm - "Max cheats" is not one of the answers to this question. What was that question again"

    Maybe this is some variant of ADD or ADHD, if it reflects inability to focus (bad). Or maybe it reflects ability to pull in seemingly unrelated information from multiple sources instantaneously (good). Or both, but we don't want to squash (good) in the interest of improving (bad).

    I'm wondering if any of you folks have talked through this sort of idea with your specialists, or if you know of any research on the issue. My gut says it's a big part of the puzzle. It might be mucking up kids' scores on testing to the extent you are really trying to measure "processing speed" versus "processing speed, assuming only this discrete information on the page is processed."

    Argh - must stop writing, and thanks if you are still reading by now. But this is really weighing on my mind, and you folks seem like a truly optimal group to discuss this with.

    Sue

    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 4,047
    A
    aeh Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Apr 2014
    Posts: 4,047
    Originally, I wasn't going to duplicate my comments on the other thread, but this is a new twist...

    Legos vs handwriting: a few notable differences.
    1. Legos are the same basic motions each time. Quite a number of different fine-motor manipulations need to be learned and sequenced for handwriting.
    2. Legos are meaningful and contextual (you are building intermediate structures that have direct correspondence to your end-goal, with immediate feedback on the effectiveness/accuracy of your fine-motor motion). Handwriting is symbolic and arbitrary. There is negligible logic behind the connection between the visual/fine-motor form of letters and sounds. Therefore,
    3. You don't have to memorize the placement of Legos (given the limited pool of motions, which are employed based on the solution to visual-spatial problems). You do have to memorize letter formation, the alphabetic principle, and quite a bit of English spelling, and apply them based on the solutions to language problems.


    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
    Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

    Moderated by  M-Moderator 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5