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    #200821 - 09/13/14 05:51 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: 22B
    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/11932...ndardized-tests
    The Trouble With Harvard; The Ivy League is broken and only standardized tests can fix it. By Steven Pinker. Sept 4, 2014.

    Scott Aaronson comments on Steven Pinker's article.
    http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2003

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    #200823 - 09/13/14 06:13 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: Aaronson


    I imagine anthropologists centuries from now studying American elite university admissions, and the parenting practices that have grown up around them, alongside cannibalism, kamikaze piloting, and other historical extremes of the human condition.)



    Well put, that. grin
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    #200828 - 09/13/14 07:43 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Tallulah Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/25/10
    Posts: 480
    Ditto, 22B.

    In addition, if you want to play the 'truly gifted' card, then frenetic extracurricularing is the opposite of a 'tell' for geniuses. Deep focus is more their style, isn't it?


    Edited by Tallulah (09/13/14 07:49 PM)

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    #200832 - 09/13/14 08:56 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Tallulah, I think that it actually just depends upon the person. Some polymaths dabble in a lot of things. And when I say "dabble" I mean that they simply don't CARE about extrinsic motivators such as praise, accolades, or rankings-- they do those things to get something intrinsic and personally meaningful out of them, and (speaking as a parent to one of this type)-- good luck even convincing them to DOCUMENT such activities well. That's just not the point for those people.

    They will dive into an interest for a bit, then completely drop it (maybe for a time, maybe forever) once they've gotten what they need from it.

    I think that this is something of a personality quirk, myself. My entire household seems to share it-- so my DH is the one that once he's done with something, he's kind of done with it for good, though sometimes it takes him a while to admit it. Me, I circle back-- but it may be a long latent period. DD is more like me, but she has interests like that which she hasn't touched in a year or more. She'll be back to them, though.
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    #200840 - 09/13/14 11:37 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Tigerle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/14
    Posts: 602
    Loc: Europe
    Didn't the extracurricular thing originally develop early in the last century because the ivies wanted to keep the "Jewish swots" from being admitted in large numbers? I think I once read something to that effect. They overwhelmingly brought the better academic credentials with them but at least country clubs could be relied on to keep them out of tennis and riding lessons. Officially, admission officials talked about leadership, though. These days, the disadvantaged ethnic group would probably Asian kids.

    My home state (I live in Europe) started introducing interviews as assessment criterion about a decade ago for high level public sector jobs (entrance for which had until that time been determined exclusively by standardized exam grades) when women began to outperform men on the exams and would have had to be recruited in larger numbers than men. (Not that they had been bothered about gender equality in the 200 years before that). Officially, of course, it was all about character and personality being important for leadership in the administrative and justice sector blah blah blah.

    My point being (yes, I do have a point and I'm coming to it) the same as 22B - that if you introduce fuzzy admission criteria on purpose, they purpose is not usually the one that is being brought forth officially. If you want to distinguish by academic ability, use a criterion that actually measures academic ability and does not enable covert selection for SES, ethnicity or gender.


    Edited by Tigerle (09/13/14 11:38 PM)

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    #200841 - 09/14/14 12:01 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Tigerle]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: Tigerle
    Didn't the extracurricular thing originally develop early in the last century because the ivies wanted to keep the "Jewish swots" from being admitted in large numbers? I think I once read something to that effect. They overwhelmingly brought the better academic credentials with them but at least country clubs could be relied on to keep them out of tennis and riding lessons. Officially, admission officials talked about leadership, though. These days, the disadvantaged ethnic group would probably Asian kids.

    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/162144/Ivy_League_Admissions.html
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Chosen-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/061877355X

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    #200857 - 09/14/14 09:50 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Tigerle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/14
    Posts: 602
    Loc: Europe
    Thanks, that must have been the publication I read the article about when it first came out.

    A comparable piece of hypocrisy would be the practice of gapping, where colleges admit students on the basis of academic merit, but then discourage low SES students from attending by cutting down the financial aid offered to an amount that makes attendance financially unfeasible for them, freeing up places for students from higher SES with slightly lower academic credentials who can make a larger financial contribution.

    Oxford and Cambridge have an even worse record in admitting students from state (public in the us) schools versus independent schools (private in the us), the split is roughly 50/50, while the percentage of students attending independent schools is about 7 %. The hypocrisy is not in the recruiting efforts by the universities, who can't get past the fact that the independent schools churn out much more qualified candidates than the state schools do, and whose outreach efforts to the state system I'd be prepared to give the benefit of doubt, but in a public education system which suppresses and drives out talent while pretending that this self reproducing independent sector does not exist.

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    #200858 - 09/14/14 09:59 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Tigerle]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Tigerle
    A comparable piece of hypocrisy would be the practice of gapping, where colleges admit students on the basis of academic merit, but then discourage low SES students from attending by cutting down the financial aid offered to an amount that makes attendance financially unfeasible for them, freeing up places for students from higher SES with slightly lower academic credentials who can make a larger financial contribution.


    Which is why you go to a state school for free.

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    #200863 - 09/14/14 10:56 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Tigerle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/14
    Posts: 602
    Loc: Europe
    Oxford was actually free at the time I went. Doesn't help if admission is so strongly biased in favor of those whose parents could afford the right school in the previous 13 years of their lives....

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    #200869 - 09/14/14 11:28 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    No-- it doesn't.

    And the problem is that Ivy/Elite admissions are exactly that way in the US right now-- only it's obscured by the window dressing re: "diversity" admits, quotas behind closed doors, etc. etc. etc. EC's are just one component of it, but all of it just provides a better smokescreen for them to admit basically the same kids they always have.
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