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    Joined: Sep 2012
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    mom2one Offline OP
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    Hi
    I have been lurking and following some of the posts, but not as much as I would have liked.

    Has anyone's child experienced severe organizational difficulties in the classroom ? Examples -- put things away, take things out etc. My child had issues with doing work, completing work till end of 1st grade. Second grade is much better, he seems to focus on work and get it done. However, his teacher says he is still lagging behind when instructions are given (there is a lag before he starts following through), and does not look to see what the other kids are doing. The other challenge is the organizational difficulties. I have another appointment scheduled (follow-up to the appointment in July), and I was wondering if there was a specific test they could do to see where the challenges are.

    Also, as far as the school is concerned, what supports typically do they offer to kids who are organizationally challenged at early elementary grades ? I would like to know your experiences

    He's doing very well academically. Tests seem to motivate him a lot, and he seems driven to do his very best. He also likes learning, so we do a lot of afterschool learning. *I* am still concerned about dysgraphia, but the person we are seeing ruled it out

    Thanks in advance.



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    DS7 had an evaluation by the school last year and they did the BRIEF for executive functioning. Since he didn't do well on some parts of it they added organizational skills to his IEP. http://www4.parinc.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=BRIEF. One example of something the teacher did was to give him two lockers so he could better organize his stuff, with signs in the lockers telling him what to do. By the end of the year she said he was normal in terms of getting his stuff together and getting to class. There can also be visual cue cards, seating a kid near the teacher, etc. I'm actually not really sure what is currently being done with DS. The IEP wasn't very specfic but there is someone who is supposed to be working with the teacher on what can be done in the classroom to keep him organized and speed him up.

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    Some people swear by the approach in the book Smart but Scattered. YMMV- I thought it was very interesting info, but the methods did not work for us. Your kid sounds like it might profit, so you may want to have a look.

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    mom2one Offline OP
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    Tigerle, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll have a look.
    Blackcat, they don't have lockers in their class. They do have a desk, where they can keep their stuff. However, I suspect that it is a very small desk, and that he can't seem to keep it organized (which leads to him unable to take things out/put things back in the proper place, when asked). I had not heard of BRIEF before, so thanks for the link.

    I am also wondering out aloud if this is just an age issue -- as in, will he outgrow it (with supports, scaffolding etc) ? Or, do people who have challenges with executive function, have it for life ?


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    Sorry to hear your DS's organizational struggles. My DS has these issues also, so I know them well. Our school is in the process of creating a 504 for him as I am very concerned when he enters middle school.
    I did speak to a mom at our school whose son has obvious focus and organization issues and the whilst he does not qualify for a 504 accommodation, he did get an aide to help him out for a couple of hours a day, and he was given an extra desk next to his to help organize all his stuff. He was also seated next to the teacher. My son is also seated close to his.
    My DS also does well academically, so no offers of tests were given during our meeting, but I am going to request that the school do an evaluation. I found that sharing with our school the anxiety that our DS is having due to his issues seemed to get the administration's attention.
    I have the Smart and Scattered book too; on my next to read list!

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    Do you see these organizational challenges at home as well? While I have not been incredibly successful in getting organizational support in the classroom, here are a few things I have done to help my DS.

    Lists - I use a magnetic dry erase board that is the size of a clip board. I created magnets that he can move around from TO DO to DONE. He has one for various tasks like morning routine, clean up routine, etc.

    Breaking tasks down - he has become much better at this at 10 but he has struggled along the way on how to begin tasks and persist through them. We spend time together thinking and talking about the assignment and prepare a schedule. So, for after school it looks something like this

    2-2:30 break/snack/ screen time
    2:30-3:00 practice instrument
    3-3:15 break
    3:15-3:30 chores (we list the chores)
    3:30-4 math - unit 1 including problems

    He has had a 504 for ADHD for 3 years and most of his accommodations include requesting assistance (though hit or miss with teacher actually providing it) as I mentioned above and also

    sitting near teacher (he doesn't have this anymore in Middle School)

    more time to turn something in - in case he looses (misplaces or forgets) it.

    During long work periods, shorten work periods to 25 minutes with up to 10 minute break between if needed

    Shorten and/or modify assignments – he needs less problems/work to show mastery. Assignments modified to promote full engagement.

    Pair written instructions with oral instructions or have written instructions available online

    I would also occasionally go in and clean out his desk with him. Now he has a locker and most everything comes home each day - he puts it in his folder in class and then it goes into his backpack.

    Oh, and in terms of outgrowing, he has gotten better each year. My DH on the other hand still struggles. smile

    Last edited by Percy; 09/03/14 12:45 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mom2one
    I am also wondering out aloud if this is just an age issue -- as in, will he outgrow it (with supports, scaffolding etc) ? Or, do people who have challenges with executive function, have it for life ?

    Some EF deficits are perfectly normal at that age. Teachers are usually very deliberate in giving instructions and making sure each kid is on the same page before moving to the next instruction for precisely that reason. As they get older, the teachers expect them to take on more responsibility.

    We never got any complaints about our DD9's EF at school, but we saw plenty of issues at home: forgetting to bring things to school, forgetting to bring things home, forgetting to write down homework assignments, forgetting that she had homework assignments, etc. The biggest issues happened with large projects, where she couldn't get organized, and we had to break down the projects into manageable chunks for her, then schedule her time, etc. We expected to deal with some of this, and her friends were having similar issues, so we never saw any of it as developmentally abnormal.

    This year, it's like the scaffolds have completely fallen off, and she's managing all of her homework tasks like a pro... AND she's managing them alongside her extracurriculars as well. We were quite stunned to see her decide to pick an instrument and join the band in recent weeks, and discard the robotics team to make room for it.

    If your DS's teacher is talking to you about it, then clearly she's seeing things that she doesn't deem normal. I'd suggest you go to the class and observe, if possible, to see how different his behavior is from his peers. There are possible causes that have nothing to do with a true EF deficit, like:

    - Your DS is daydreaming, due to boredom.
    - Your DS is behaving normally, but his teacher is seeing it differently (possibly being overly critical due to previous requests for accommodations).

    Moreover... how is his EF when he's at home and doing things that have nothing to do with school?

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    mom2one Offline OP
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    Quote
    I did speak to a mom at our school whose son has obvious focus and organization issues and the whilst he does not qualify for a 504 accommodation, he did get an aide to help him out for a couple of hours a day, and he was given an extra desk next to his to help organize all his stuff.

    This would actually be really good to have, but I am not sure if this will be given if we ask for it smile

    Quote
    Do you see these organizational challenges at home as well?

    Not really, unless it is a brand new task he has to learn. I literally have to break it up into very tiny task segments and make sure he understands and can do it. We do a fair bit of repetition together (this is so unlike math, where he gets it immediately) and then he is able to do it on his own. But he does have to work at it; it does not come easily to him

    He does well with lists -- I give 3 things at a time, once those are done, another set of 3 things is given. But, it would never occur to him to do it on his own (without a list), just because it is routine. This part worries me.

    Quote
    Moreover... how is his EF when he's at home and doing things that have nothing to do with school?

    It is okay, for the most part. I tell him verbally what he is expected to do, and if it is a task he has done multiple times before, he does it. However, if it is a brand-new task, he has to be walked through all the steps, for a fair bit of time, till it becomes "almost routine".

    Quote
    Your DS is daydreaming, due to boredom.
    My child has actually told me he is thinking of other things (whatever his interests are), even though he knows he should not be thinking of other things. He says he can't help think of other things. This part worries me as well.











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    mom2one, one thing I'll add for you to consider, since you have a concern re dysgraphia - my ds' dysgraphia is related to Developmental Coordination Disorder, and organizational challenges are common for kids with DCD - so - just one more thing to add to your list of possibilities.

    One positive thing to note though - it's not uncommon for kids who have organizational challenges to see huge leaps in org. ability as they go through puberty, and we've definitely noticed that with our ds. He's not entirely free of his organizational challenges at this point, but the combination of a *lot* of support from us (parents) combined with a bit of support at school combined with puberty all together really *really* helped.

    Originally Posted by mom2one
    Quote
    I did speak to a mom at our school whose son has obvious focus and organization issues and the whilst he does not qualify for a 504 accommodation, he did get an aide to help him out for a couple of hours a day, and he was given an extra desk next to his to help organize all his stuff.

    This would actually be really good to have, but I am not sure if this will be given if we ask for it smile

    While this might be an ideal to shoot for, there are other ways you can provide this same type of support. If the school won't help you at all - do you pick up your ds at the end of the day? If you do, you could go into his classroom, review what he did that day, review what he has for homework, check to see that he has what he needs to do his homework (books etc) in his backpack, and you can help him straighten up his desk etc before he leaves. That probably sounds like micro-managing to parents who are reading and haven't had to parent a child with an organizational challenge, but I can tell you that hands-down, doing that for my ds over the course of about 6 months made a *huge* difference in his ability to keep track of his classwork and increased his self-confidence in being able to manage his work. He really didn't *want* me to do it, so we had a deal - I'd be there after school and we'd do it together for __ months, then if he was feeling he could handle it (and I agreed) I'd step back to only once a week, then after a few weeks of that being successful I'd pull back and only help if it was requested. It worked great - but otoh, my ds was a little bit older. I think it would have been a good idea for me to do this when he was your ds' age, but I don't know that it would have been possible to *not* help him with it for the full year.

    If you work and can't pick him up, and you're able to pay for it, you could hire a college-age or high-school age child who is responsible to come in and do this for you (with your ds).

    You can also ask the school to give your ds a checklist of specific organizational tasks he needs to do before he can leave his classroom each day (put away books, straighten desk, write down homework, etc).

    Another thing to remember - if you're requesting a 504 plan, or even if you're just talking directly with the teacher and only the teacher - you can brainstorm while you're meeting. You may bring up one request, the teacher will nix it for whatever reason (be sure to ask what the reason is, because it might not be what you anticipate, and there might be a work-around that's clear as day to you and never occurred to the teacher) - then when the idea becomes a "we can't do", you ask what can be done, or you suggest a slightly different version of it based on the "why we can't do it'.

    Quote
    Quote
    Do you see these organizational challenges at home as well?

    Not really, unless it is a brand new task he has to learn. I literally have to break it up into very tiny task segments and make sure he understands and can do it. We do a fair bit of repetition together (this is so unlike math, where he gets it immediately) and then he is able to do it on his own. But he does have to work at it; it does not come easily to him.

    This sounds a lot like dysgraphia to me - the lack of development of automaticity. Please know, you're going to hear only about dysgraphia from me because that's what I know… it could also be a number of other things. I just wanted to mention the dysgraphia side of it because that's something that is still on your mind. It fits. You'll often see that slowness of learning new routines, new tasks in dysgraphic kids - they sometimes need a lot more repetition than nt kids when it comes to learning new tasks and routines.

    Quote
    Quote
    Moreover... how is his EF when he's at home and doing things that have nothing to do with school?

    It is okay, for the most part. I tell him verbally what he is expected to do, and if it is a task he has done multiple times before, he does it. However, if it is a brand-new task, he has to be walked through all the steps, for a fair bit of time, till it becomes "almost routine".

    Again this sounds typical of kids with dysgraphia/DCD. But also - typical of other types of challenges too. Just something to consider.

    Quote
    Quote
    Your DS is daydreaming, due to boredom.
    My child has actually told me he is thinking of other things (whatever his interests are), even though he knows he should not be thinking of other things. He says he can't help think of other things. This part worries me as well.

    My dysgraphic ds appeared to daydream a *lot* in elementary school (sometimes later on too!). He's told me that he sometimes does daydream and starts thinking about other things - because he can't do what the teacher is expecting the students to do. For him, that challenge is written expression - he would not know what to write, and he did not ask for help, but instead would sit at his desk watching all the other students write. He would get stressed out, and when he got stressed out he started thinking about other things.

    polarbear

    Last edited by polarbear; 09/03/14 01:56 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mom2one
    Originally Posted by Dude
    Moreover... how is his EF when he's at home and doing things that have nothing to do with school?

    It is okay, for the most part. I tell him verbally what he is expected to do, and if it is a task he has done multiple times before, he does it. However, if it is a brand-new task, he has to be walked through all the steps, for a fair bit of time, till it becomes "almost routine".

    Other than task-avoidant perfectionism, I can't think of a psychological explanation for this one. I'd say it's worth exploring for a neurological explanation. It does not sound like typical 7yo behavior.

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