Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Need some more advice/suggestions..

Hi
I have been lurking and following some of the posts, but not as much as I would have liked.

Has anyone's child experienced severe organizational difficulties in the classroom ? Examples -- put things away, take things out etc. My child had issues with doing work, completing work till end of 1st grade. Second grade is much better, he seems to focus on work and get it done. However, his teacher says he is still lagging behind when instructions are given (there is a lag before he starts following through), and does not look to see what the other kids are doing. The other challenge is the organizational difficulties. I have another appointment scheduled (follow-up to the appointment in July), and I was wondering if there was a specific test they could do to see where the challenges are.

Also, as far as the school is concerned, what supports typically do they offer to kids who are organizationally challenged at early elementary grades ? I would like to know your experiences

He's doing very well academically. Tests seem to motivate him a lot, and he seems driven to do his very best. He also likes learning, so we do a lot of afterschool learning. *I* am still concerned about dysgraphia, but the person we are seeing ruled it out

Thanks in advance.

DS7 had an evaluation by the school last year and they did the BRIEF for executive functioning. Since he didn't do well on some parts of it they added organizational skills to his IEP. http://www4.parinc.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=BRIEF. One example of something the teacher did was to give him two lockers so he could better organize his stuff, with signs in the lockers telling him what to do. By the end of the year she said he was normal in terms of getting his stuff together and getting to class. There can also be visual cue cards, seating a kid near the teacher, etc. I'm actually not really sure what is currently being done with DS. The IEP wasn't very specfic but there is someone who is supposed to be working with the teacher on what can be done in the classroom to keep him organized and speed him up.

Some people swear by the approach in the book Smart but Scattered. YMMV- I thought it was very interesting info, but the methods did not work for us. Your kid sounds like it might profit, so you may want to have a look.

Tigerle, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll have a look.
Blackcat, they don't have lockers in their class. They do have a desk, where they can keep their stuff. However, I suspect that it is a very small desk, and that he can't seem to keep it organized (which leads to him unable to take things out/put things back in the proper place, when asked). I had not heard of BRIEF before, so thanks for the link.

I am also wondering out aloud if this is just an age issue -- as in, will he outgrow it (with supports, scaffolding etc) ? Or, do people who have challenges with executive function, have it for life ?

Sorry to hear your DS's organizational struggles. My DS has these issues also, so I know them well. Our school is in the process of creating a 504 for him as I am very concerned when he enters middle school.
I did speak to a mom at our school whose son has obvious focus and organization issues and the whilst he does not qualify for a 504 accommodation, he did get an aide to help him out for a couple of hours a day, and he was given an extra desk next to his to help organize all his stuff. He was also seated next to the teacher. My son is also seated close to his.
My DS also does well academically, so no offers of tests were given during our meeting, but I am going to request that the school do an evaluation. I found that sharing with our school the anxiety that our DS is having due to his issues seemed to get the administration's attention.
I have the Smart and Scattered book too; on my next to read list!

Do you see these organizational challenges at home as well? While I have not been incredibly successful in getting organizational support in the classroom, here are a few things I have done to help my DS.

Lists - I use a magnetic dry erase board that is the size of a clip board. I created magnets that he can move around from TO DO to DONE. He has one for various tasks like morning routine, clean up routine, etc.

Breaking tasks down - he has become much better at this at 10 but he has struggled along the way on how to begin tasks and persist through them. We spend time together thinking and talking about the assignment and prepare a schedule. So, for after school it looks something like this

2-2:30 break/snack/ screen time
2:30-3:00 practice instrument
3-3:15 break
3:15-3:30 chores (we list the chores)
3:30-4 math - unit 1 including problems

He has had a 504 for ADHD for 3 years and most of his accommodations include requesting assistance (though hit or miss with teacher actually providing it) as I mentioned above and also

sitting near teacher (he doesn't have this anymore in Middle School)

more time to turn something in - in case he looses (misplaces or forgets) it.

During long work periods, shorten work periods to 25 minutes with up to 10 minute break between if needed

Shorten and/or modify assignments – he needs less problems/work to show mastery. Assignments modified to promote full engagement.

Pair written instructions with oral instructions or have written instructions available online

I would also occasionally go in and clean out his desk with him. Now he has a locker and most everything comes home each day - he puts it in his folder in class and then it goes into his backpack.

Oh, and in terms of outgrowing, he has gotten better each year. My DH on the other hand still struggles.

Some EF deficits are perfectly normal at that age. Teachers are usually very deliberate in giving instructions and making sure each kid is on the same page before moving to the next instruction for precisely that reason. As they get older, the teachers expect them to take on more responsibility.

We never got any complaints about our DD9's EF at school, but we saw plenty of issues at home: forgetting to bring things to school, forgetting to bring things home, forgetting to write down homework assignments, forgetting that she had homework assignments, etc. The biggest issues happened with large projects, where she couldn't get organized, and we had to break down the projects into manageable chunks for her, then schedule her time, etc. We expected to deal with some of this, and her friends were having similar issues, so we never saw any of it as developmentally abnormal.

This year, it's like the scaffolds have completely fallen off, and she's managing all of her homework tasks like a pro... AND she's managing them alongside her extracurriculars as well. We were quite stunned to see her decide to pick an instrument and join the band in recent weeks, and discard the robotics team to make room for it.

If your DS's teacher is talking to you about it, then clearly she's seeing things that she doesn't deem normal. I'd suggest you go to the class and observe, if possible, to see how different his behavior is from his peers. There are possible causes that have nothing to do with a true EF deficit, like:

- Your DS is daydreaming, due to boredom.
- Your DS is behaving normally, but his teacher is seeing it differently (possibly being overly critical due to previous requests for accommodations).

Moreover... how is his EF when he's at home and doing things that have nothing to do with school?

This would actually be really good to have, but I am not sure if this will be given if we ask for it


Not really, unless it is a brand new task he has to learn. I literally have to break it up into very tiny task segments and make sure he understands and can do it. We do a fair bit of repetition together (this is so unlike math, where he gets it immediately) and then he is able to do it on his own. But he does have to work at it; it does not come easily to him

He does well with lists -- I give 3 things at a time, once those are done, another set of 3 things is given. But, it would never occur to him to do it on his own (without a list), just because it is routine. This part worries me.


It is okay, for the most part. I tell him verbally what he is expected to do, and if it is a task he has done multiple times before, he does it. However, if it is a brand-new task, he has to be walked through all the steps, for a fair bit of time, till it becomes "almost routine".

My child has actually told me he is thinking of other things (whatever his interests are), even though he knows he should not be thinking of other things. He says he can't help think of other things. This part worries me as well.

mom2one, one thing I'll add for you to consider, since you have a concern re dysgraphia - my ds' dysgraphia is related to Developmental Coordination Disorder, and organizational challenges are common for kids with DCD - so - just one more thing to add to your list of possibilities.

One positive thing to note though - it's not uncommon for kids who have organizational challenges to see huge leaps in org. ability as they go through puberty, and we've definitely noticed that with our ds. He's not entirely free of his organizational challenges at this point, but the combination of a *lot* of support from us (parents) combined with a bit of support at school combined with puberty all together really *really* helped.


While this might be an ideal to shoot for, there are other ways you can provide this same type of support. If the school won't help you at all - do you pick up your ds at the end of the day? If you do, you could go into his classroom, review what he did that day, review what he has for homework, check to see that he has what he needs to do his homework (books etc) in his backpack, and you can help him straighten up his desk etc before he leaves. That probably sounds like micro-managing to parents who are reading and haven't had to parent a child with an organizational challenge, but I can tell you that hands-down, doing that for my ds over the course of about 6 months made a *huge* difference in his ability to keep track of his classwork and increased his self-confidence in being able to manage his work. He really didn't *want* me to do it, so we had a deal - I'd be there after school and we'd do it together for __ months, then if he was feeling he could handle it (and I agreed) I'd step back to only once a week, then after a few weeks of that being successful I'd pull back and only help if it was requested. It worked great - but otoh, my ds was a little bit older. I think it would have been a good idea for me to do this when he was your ds' age, but I don't know that it would have been possible to *not* help him with it for the full year.

If you work and can't pick him up, and you're able to pay for it, you could hire a college-age or high-school age child who is responsible to come in and do this for you (with your ds).

You can also ask the school to give your ds a checklist of specific organizational tasks he needs to do before he can leave his classroom each day (put away books, straighten desk, write down homework, etc).

Another thing to remember - if you're requesting a 504 plan, or even if you're just talking directly with the teacher and only the teacher - you can brainstorm while you're meeting. You may bring up one request, the teacher will nix it for whatever reason (be sure to ask what the reason is, because it might not be what you anticipate, and there might be a work-around that's clear as day to you and never occurred to the teacher) - then when the idea becomes a "we can't do", you ask what can be done, or you suggest a slightly different version of it based on the "why we can't do it'.


This sounds a lot like dysgraphia to me - the lack of development of automaticity. Please know, you're going to hear only about dysgraphia from me because that's what I know… it could also be a number of other things. I just wanted to mention the dysgraphia side of it because that's something that is still on your mind. It fits. You'll often see that slowness of learning new routines, new tasks in dysgraphic kids - they sometimes need a lot more repetition than nt kids when it comes to learning new tasks and routines.


Again this sounds typical of kids with dysgraphia/DCD. But also - typical of other types of challenges too. Just something to consider.


My dysgraphic ds appeared to daydream a *lot* in elementary school (sometimes later on too!). He's told me that he sometimes does daydream and starts thinking about other things - because he can't do what the teacher is expecting the students to do. For him, that challenge is written expression - he would not know what to write, and he did not ask for help, but instead would sit at his desk watching all the other students write. He would get stressed out, and when he got stressed out he started thinking about other things.

polarbear

Other than task-avoidant perfectionism, I can't think of a psychological explanation for this one. I'd say it's worth exploring for a neurological explanation. It does not sound like typical 7yo behavior.

Thanks, everyone
Polarbear, very helpful as usual. Percy, Dude, Polarbear -- we had a child psychiatrist independently evaluate my child. Clinically or medically, he does not seem to fit into categories like ADHD/ADD, Autism, SPD etc. They said that they are ruling those out, till such time testing yields more data to support some sort of diagnosis (so I can get services from the school). That said, they do see some issues, the psychiatrist said it is mostly due to asynchronousity/lower processing speed (compared to other strengths) and have recommended more testing. I think there is a waitlist for that as well

At the school, his teacher says that regardless of his ability to do well on tests/tasks, she is extremely concerned about his inappropriate behavior (like not sitting at his desk properly, needing to give multiple reminders or redirections before routine tasks etc). It has been indicated that multiple reminders were one of the main issues (for the school) -- as in, that much time is taken away from other kids. The school seems willing to evaluate. My question is should I proceed with both in parallel ? Should I let the school know where we are at the testing process with the private psychiatrist/neuropsychs ? I don't want testing by the neuro-psych to be compromised; at the same time, I don't want my child to suffer for lack of support at school.

Several things I'd consider:

--get on the waitlist for private testing

--Are you in the US? Does your district use RTI (response to intervention)? Under this model, they are supposed to try a variety of things to improve the child's behavior/challenges and see what works. This is more informal than an IEP; the advantage is that you can arrange to get things into place sooner.

A phone call to the special education or student services office in your district will tell you whether they do this.

--A hazard of having solely the school evaluate is that they are not really qualified to make medical diagnoses; further, many school psychologists are not able to really accurately assess complex behavior issues. I have always been happiest when I bring a private eval that informs the school process. On the other hand, to get services into place at school on a more permanent basis, you will likely need their eval. And since that's where the issues are most visible, perhaps they'll be willing to identify him for services.

--I would also work the parent network for information. Are children generally getting appropriate services for their challenges, or is yours one of the districts that hinders rather than helps? If you know about the environment you're operating in, you can make better guesses about what path is most useful now.

HTH,
DeeDee

Check the school psych's qualifications. Many are BCBAs (certified behavior analysts), especially the more recent grads. And if not, there may be a BCBA on staff somewhere in the system. Also, all SPs have training in FBA, unless they are really old, or didn't graduate from a NASP- or APA-approved program. So you may find that your school does have behavior resources.

And whether or not school personnel are qualified to make medical Dxs, most school systems will not allow them to do so. (Many LicSWs are, as are psychs in some states, at least for mental health Dx, which is mostly what we are talking about here.)

Deedee, very helpful. Thanks



We are already on the waitlist for this.


Yes, in the US. The teacher did indicate this is possible to do. And yes, I think they do follow RTI. They really want to seem to help. However, they keep thinking ADD (or ADHD - Inattentive), from all the conversations I have had. The psychiatrist says he does not see all the markers (perhaps, some of them)

I am wondering if this will be an issue for the school to help.



Yes, I fully agree with this, which is why we are taking this careful approach. I am also hesitant -- ADHD seems over-diagnosed, and he does not fit into the ADHD profile, though he has issues with organization and following directions quickly, especially in a group environment


The school seems generally responsive, and the kids do get appropriate services. However, apparently, the parent needs to know what to ask for; one of my friends in the school said this was especially frustrating (even though her child's situation was pretty straight-forward)


AEH, thanks. I will be sure to ask/find out. Would you be willing to explain how FBA will work, esp in a case where multiple reminders/re-directions are required ?

Also, I want to be able to understand my child (not just for school, but for regular life). I am often puzzled, at home, or at various places, we get regular comments on what an interesting child he is, how friendly he is and so on; at school, it is totally different.

Momtoone, I'd second the suggestion to ask about RTI - in our district this is required before an IEP eligibility evaluation process can be initiated.

It also will help to remember that this is going to be a journey, not a quick trip to Target where you purchase what you need to cure everything off the shelf and then it's all put in place and done You can start now by brainstorming a few things to suggest that the school try as RTI, see how they work, and in the meantime you're waiting for your private eval. When you get that eval completed, you'll have more data so you then tweak what is being done as appropriate, start the IEP process if appropriate, etc. It is frustrating not to have all the answers up front, but truthfully you'll never have really *all* the answers - because life and classroom expectations and everything changes as our kids grow, and we're also constantly learning more about them, collecting more data etc.


This happened with our public school experience - the parents had to know what to ask for. It's frustrating, but you can work past it - gather all the ideas you can from all the resources you have. We can brainstorm here; you can google specific items + accommodations, and you can network with fellow local parents. If you haven't tried to locate one, I'd try to see if there is a parent's advocates group in your area - look under the yellow pages listings at www.wrightslaw.org. You can ask an advocate for help in both what types of accommodations might work plus what accommodations are typical in your area. Another source of info is your state's SPED policy handbook (or your school districts if you can find it) - in many states/districts you can find the policy handbooks online, and they will contain lists of appropriate and/or typically-used accommodations for different types of student needs.


The thing is, school is a completely different type of place than the rest of life for most children. If your ds had a challenge with holding a crayon, for instance, you might not ever notice that at home because he might spend all of his time building legos and ignoring crayons so it's easy to think, he's a legos kid and not think anything twice about it. At school, he all of a sudden has to use a crayon and he doesn't know how or can't and that's frustrating - so he acts out or acts differently.

Another thing that can be different about school is the teacher. It is possible that part of what is an issue is due to how the teacher is handling it - especially if things seem to be fine one year and then suddenly different the next. I don't think that's the situation you're in, because you've had concerns with more than one teacher and over more than one year (I think? I might be remembering wrong)… and you've got a gut feeling that the teacher is trying to help - so in your case I'd suspect something more than simply difficult teacher-student fit.


I think that teachers and school staff many times suggest ADHD because it's something they *are* familiar with - it may be different in other areas, but in our schools my kids have always had at least 1 or more kids with ADHD diagnoses in each of their classes - and those are the kids I *know* about because I know their parents or because the kids told my kids - I suspect there are others). The other thing about ADHD and LDs and quite a few other challenges is that there can be overlapping symptoms - particularly in elementary when behavior is a form of communication for children. So a teacher who's had students with ADHD, is familiar with some of the symptoms, then sees the same symptoms in another student may extrapolate that the other student also has ADHD. We definitely had that happen to our ds - and we even had it happen with our dd and her pediatrician.

One thing to consider is - even though the diagnosis and root cause of symptoms such as organizational challenges may be different from ADHD, you might still be able to use some of the same accommodations/remediation techniques that teachers use for students with ADHD effectively. So one way to approach this with the school is to request RTI, if the school is trying to push for an eval for an IEP/OHI (adhd), request that they hold off, let them know you're seeking a private eval and request that the school put RTI in place now - then set a time in the future (preferably after you'll have the private eval info) to meet again, assess the effectiveness of RTI and re-look at whether or not you need to move forward with an IEP eligibility process.

I'm also on the fence re whether or not I'd let the school do an FBA at this point - I'd probably rather put RTI in place first, then consider the FBA as part of an IEP eligibility process *later*. The reason for this (just my perspective) is - you'll probably have some type of behavior survey included with your neuropsych eval, which will include both teachers and parents completing a behavior survey. If you have a teacher who is either really frustrated with your child or who has a mindset that your child may have ADHD it's *possible* the survey they fill out will come with a built-in bias. Please know, I'm not knocking teachers at all - most will do their best to be very fair, but it's also a chance that this will happen (it absolutely happened to us when we had our ds' initial neuropsych eval). It's jmo, but I would be more comfortable having a non-invested third party (the neuropsych) be the person who is attempting to interpret the survey than the school staff *if* that situation arose.

polarbear

My dd 2 1/2 is to young for this topic, but my memory of my childhood is what drives me to respond. There are many likely reasons for the troubles that I had in school:

1. Rough home life.
2. Chronic daydreamer.
3. Lack of direction.
4. Very slow writing speed.
5. Disorganization.

Disorganization was one thing that I had to solve. Unfortunately, I only solved it as an adult and not completely. My method as an adult is to try to as often as possible keep my environment organized, and deal with as much small stuff quickly as possible. I do add the as often as possible because I have the ability to walk through a room and leave a disaster in minutes. It is almost a supernatural gift. But, I have learned to be able to clean up almost as fast, and I must do it fairly regularly or my mind will soon become disorganized. Now the catch, I believe I am more creative in a mess. So, my real method. I allow myself to create a mess, but like "Cat in the Hat" I always pick up my play things. Learning to clean up fast was the key, but not easy. The fast is so important because I am not a very patient individual.

Now, that said, I might have and might still benefit by understanding what if any learning disability I might have had, but I was intelligent enough to stay out of special help and so did not learn some tactics that would have helped me in school. I do, however identify with many statements I have read under this forums 2e section. Being that I likely had some of these issue, I intend to become better educated in case my daughter shares them, as well as to gain more insight for myself.

By college I was fairly organized, but it was as it still is an artificial process. I am not naturally organized.

Aeh, I have a question about your comment on who is qualified to do FBAs. A few years ago, I asked my son's school if someone could observe him to see why he was having trouble at school. We later found out he was being bullied. At the time, though, they had their behavioral specialist observe him for two days and tell me he was fine. When I called to talk with the behavior specialist, I discovered that she was a special education teacher and apparently responsible for FBAs without additional training (she said she just had special education certification).

I know they have an SP, but assumed they asked whoever was most qualified to do the assessments. The person who did the observation told me she did them, regularly, so I don't think they were simply choosing the easiest option.

Is an FBA supposed to be conducted by someone with specific training in it? Would someone requesting an FBA need to know what to ask for in order to get someone qualified to do it? Do special education teachers get trained to do FBAs even though the one I talked with seemed to say fairly clearly she didn't have specialized training in it?

I'm just curious in case we need to ask again and it seems relevant to the overall discussion.

There is no certification in FBAs, though you could assure training by asking for a BCBA. It should be done by a person with specific training in behavior assessment, though, with or without the BCBA. In most buildings, that would be the SP. In some places, there may be a BCBA who is not also the SP.

One of the complications is that anyone can do a classroom observation, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are observing with intelligence. A good FBA should minimally have interviews or surveys of behavior from multiple sources, including parents, a well-defined/operationalized set of target behaviors, and direct or indirect assessment to identify the antecedents, consequences, and functions of behavior. I usually conduct multiple classroom observations, at various times of day, during different instructional settings, with various staff, and across many days. I also prefer time-sampling behavior, with a non-referred comparison peer, as I love data. There is no FBA that should conclude that the child is "fine." The outcome should identify the four elements listed above (antecedent-behavior-consequence and function of behavior). Someone saw a pattern of behavior of some kind, or there would be no referral. One could conclude that it was setting specific, and thus not observed at that time, or that it was a singularity, arising from a low-frequency set of setting events.

If your FBA does not clearly indicate ABC and function, then it is not an adequate assessment. In the event that the observer can document a plethora of observations, without any sighting of the target behavior, then that, at least should be supported with data. (E.g., time samplings, with the target behavior occurring in 0 out of 150 rated intervals, observed in five sessions, across three days and four settings.)

It sounds like your observer did not see the behavior at all, probably because it resulted from bullying, and the aggressors were smart enough not to do it right in front of the teacher. That's why I interview the student, too, and try to observe as unobtrusively as possible when I'm in the classroom, cafeteria, or on the playground.

Saw this in reverse order. I answered some of your questions in reply to apm.

For a child who needs frequent reminders/re-direction, I would be looking for settings where performance is better (off-task behaviors are fewer) and worse, and analyzing for patterns, for example, in terms of task-type, group structure, seating, outside distractions, time of day, staff-child and peer-child interactions. Also, the frequency with which cueing is needed in various settings, and what kinds of cues are most effective.

Mom2one - Polar bear has excellent advice and info! My son also has Dyspraxia/DCD (it is called so many different things) and pretty severe dysgraphia. I would seek someone who is very familiar with dyspraxia/DCD and dysgraphia to make sure he is being properly looked at for it. I know in my area, for some odd reason, it has been difficult finding psychs, neurospychs, etc who are familiar with the condition (and I live in a suburb of which I think is the largest city in the country). There are two nationally well-renowned childrens hospitals in the country are in my area and both do not identify dyspraxia/DCD or dysgraphia. I hope that helps.

I am really leery of FBAs and the people that do them (I forget what they are called) and I have mentioned that before here (and was chastised for not getting the terminology just right so I won't make that mistake again!) Very leery of them. I know with my kid, they often do not really understand what is the antecedent/cause of behavior and make up their own story based on their bias. They also do not understand the "function" of his behavior. I have a number of examples of this and I'll share two. In one observation, my son who had been eating at the peanut free lunch table (because he is fatally allergic to peanuts and has gone into anaphalatic shock more than three times now so he is exceedingly anxious about peanuts), was told several times to go to his classroom lunch table to sit there and then the children would be lined up to go out. (this was the schools procedure - all kids return to the specific class table then are filed out). My DS refused. He dilly-dallied and found other things to do in order to get there at the very last second. If he were forced to the table, he would not sit. Of course, this was "evidence" of either adhd and/or ODD (and since often they go together in boys we all have those colored glasses on now). No one bothered to find out the real reason, which I knew right away. People ate peanut butter at that table every day and he was petrified he would be contaminated and get sick or die. Such a conclusion is not delusional in his case. So educated in observing and none of them could figure that out? There was another observation where my son was sat a keyboard and was having great difficulty typing on it. All the other kids were successful and finishing and moving on, he was not. When an aide approached she did so in what he felt was a patronizing manner (and she probably was were because they (teacher aides) were always rolling their eyes about him) and he was already upset at looking stupid. He stated he hated the stupid task and computer. Again the big speculation being that he is defiant, oppositional adhd. I knew right away it was his visual -motor integration issues. He STILL has trouble dialing a phone. At the time he was just getting ready to start vision therapy because he had strabismis which caused his eyes to cross intermittently making that particular task really hard for him even though it should be easy and he knew it should be easy and that he looked stupid. None of those that do FBAs seem to understand the impact his low tone and writing difficulties had on his behavior and the function of his behavior in alleviating the physical discomfort caused by both. It seems to me (and I am bias, and only have anecdotal stories) that they were all about adhd and autism and ODD. I'd never have another one ever look at my son again. That's just my experience. Maybe it's just my district but I stay away form that whole FBA thing. I would probably feel entirely different if my son did have the actual condition s that seem to be good at such as autism and adhd, though.

I feel for your son. I'm glad he has you as his advocate.

I am so sorry you have had these bad experiences. You are probably correct that the people doing the FBAs (and they're not called anything in particular, because they could be school psychs, BCBAs, special ed teachers, SAC, SSW, or GCs, among others--often they are behavior specialists, which is not a specific field) are used to doing them with ADHD, ODD, ASD, or emotional impairment as the lens. One of the issues is that many 'behavior specialists' without any certification just have a bachelor's in some education or psych-related field, and one more course on behavior. And since there are no specific qualifications necessary to do an FBA, districts can put whomever they want on it. Where I've worked, they've been done by school psychs or BCBAs (who are sometimes the same person). Sadly, this is not the case everywhere.

The tunnel-vision resulting from training narrowly-focused on the top few situations that call for FBAs is one of the big reasons that I would inquire about the specific qualifications of an assessor before agreeing to an FBA. When I conduct them, I always seek input from the parents and the child, rather than going only on my own or the teachers' perceptions. And I absolutely consider medical factors as a possible setting event, including asthma, allergies, medications, sleep hygiene, etc.

I have a follow-up question: if the child has organizational challenges, who helps (within the school district) ? Is it a "organization specialist", or someone else ? Also, my child's teacher mentioned that a resource teacher should be present at the Student Success Team meeting. Why is that/what is the purpose of the resource teacher ?

Irena, thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds horrendous. AEH, I wonder how to go about asking for their qualifications -- any tips ?

Wondering if anyone had any ideas about my follow-up question.
Thanks in advance.

In our experience, the classroom teacher addresss organization.

DS has "organizational skills" in his "Physically Impaired" IEP and there is a POHI teacher that works in a lot of different schools. POHI stands for "Physical and Other Health Impairments". So DS fits under that category with his developmental coordination disorder, and Other Health Impairments includes kids with ADHD. She is supposed to be monitoring what is going on (a couple times per month) and working with the teacher to come up with strategies. Whether there is someone like this in all districts, I have no idea.

We've had organization as an IEP goal, under the purview of the special ed teacher (=resource). For a while we had a check-in at the end of the day for DS to learn how to look at his planner, figure out what books and papers needed to come home, etc. He still has daily planner check-ins in middle school.

IMO this should be done not as "here, let me organize that," but as methodical teaching of a repetitive skill, aiming for gradual independence.

The special ed liaison usually works on organization.

Re: qualifications. I would start by asking which role conducts the eval, then contact that person directly and chat up their background, if it's not clear from their title. Good chance to convey your concerns, gauge the range of behavioral profiles in the evaluator's experience, and put some alternative hypotheses on the radar.

I only know what happens in my school district, so it may be different elsewhere. Here, a "resource teacher" is a teacher or aide who works in the school's SPED department. We usually also have a district SPED representative present at team meetings. The resource teacher is a potentially valuable team member because he/she brings knowledge of SPED resources, ideas of how to work with students and knowledge of how to address specific types of challenges. Depending on the reason for the meeting, who represents the SPED department for the meeting at our school changed. The district rep always *had* to be there - their role was to act as a source of information (informally) but in reality they were present to make sure the school staff followed appropriate SPED policy. Which did *not* always happen with our SPED process. In our case, the district rep would not generally speak up about something that wasn't right, but if a parent caught it and mentioned it the SPED resource person would become very happy and excited and let you know that yes, you the parent did indeed catch the school team trying to pull something over on you. Sorry… I'm diverging from the question lol.

The lead SPED teacher at our school came to almost all of our team meetings. When the meeting was about eligibility etc she was the only SPED person from the school who attended. Other meetings, where there were specific questions over one specific pieced of the IEP etc, or if there was a question in general about one of the goals, the SPED staff member who actually worked with the student in that area also attended the meeting.

Hope that helps!

polarbear

Every IEP meeting needs an administrator, usually from sped, a general ed teacher, and a special ed teacher. If it's an eligibility meeting, you should have the evaluators, or persons qualified to interpret their findings, usually a school psych. The administrator is the person who signs off on the proposed IEP, 504, or district refusal to act as the district representative. They generally run the meeting. The teachers are supposed to represent the perspectives of general and special ed in terms of expectations, support services, student performance, effective accommodations and strategies, etc. Sometimes multiple roles are combined in one person, usually the administrator with either the sped teacher or school psych role. On rarer occasions, the general and special ed teacher may be the same person if he or she us dually certified and in an inclusion setting.

Thanks for the replies. This is very helpful.

I have a follow up question or concern, and I am not sure how to address it. I hope someone can help me. So, my child has questioned the teacher about a topic in class. The teacher thinks that her authority is being undermined in front of the class, even if the child is right. I see the teacher's point, but I also see my child's point. She has apparently told him, "Do not fault others unless/until you are perfect". My child told me no one can ever be perfect, and his intention was to just point out what was missing. How do I help resolve this between teacher and child ? The teacher seems to be very authoritarian -- a style that unfortunately does not work well with my child.

Perhaps you can have a conversation with your child about the value of avoiding publicly-embarrassing people, especially those in authority (although I think it applies across-the-board). Just as you wouldn't start scolding him in front of all his friends, he may consider waiting until later to ask his teacher to clarify the difference between information he has received from her and information he has received from this other source. You can also talk about how people often are more able to understand and accept ideas if they work out the answer themselves, rather than having them told to them. Sometimes, when people are not given enough time to think quietly about an idea, their first response is to push it away, which often includes pushing the person suggesting the idea. It's almost a protective instinct, to avoid accidentally jumping into something harmful without knowing it.

This is a difficult position for a small child to be put into. My sense is that it is quite unlikely that the teacher will move from her position, as it is probably based more on fears and insecurities than on concerns open to rational argument. The second option, then, is to help your child begin to view the origins of this kind of behavior with compassion.

I love aeh's very wise advice about that. Really excellent set of skills...




hopefully with time, my DH can continue his learning in this particular area.

Probably posted here before, but I always remember my mom telling me my teacher complained in conference that I told her she was wrong in class. My mom's response to her was: "Well, were you?" Likely it was in math.

I still wonder how many kids give up on math, because of mistakes a teacher makes on the board. A kid close to grasping muliplication and the teacher writes: 72 x 13 = 926 and a kid gives up forever because their hypothesis is blown out of the water.

But that's math, it gets much fuzzier in softer areas or if it is about pointing out fringe cases or the sort of extra data that muddles it for others. I will say the perfection line creeps me a bit. When all else fails, a correction phrased as a curious question can work.

That was awesome.

aeh, thanks. I used your analogy, and told my kid that it is better not to correct someone publicly. I don't know how much has sunk in, and how he will react during situations like this. I have made a mental note to role-play this.

On the other hand, I sometimes think the teacher just needs to pick the most important battles, and fight those, instead of correcting his every little move. When we had our talk, she also told me that she is the ultimate authority in the classroom, and not some book/other people (apparently, my child said that he read something in some other book, or he discussed something with a docent in some other place etc). This makes me think this is obviously not the first time this has happened. I don't see a good resolution to this. The teacher thinks he is immature for disagreeing with her publicly.

Zen Scanner, that is awesome. I bet it made you feel good.

Right. Like why teach a kid to evaluate sources or think critically when you can just tell them to mindlessly follow whatever their teacher tells them even when it is obviously wrong.

I have to stop or I will really go off on a rant but goodness. People who think they are infallible are a menace to society.

How did you even manage to keep a straight face listening to this garbage?

ETA: I totally get kids need to be polite but the "I am always correct" mentality is unacceptable.

A good teacher would never say something like that. There are certainly some situations that warrant prompt correction, for example if the teacher writes "8+7=13" it is most helpful if a student points out the error and it is corrected promptly. The teacher might be embarassed, but they can turn it into a teachable moment.

There may be other situations when "correcting" a teacher is not so helpful, for example if it's a matter of opinion, or if the teacher is making an oversimplification of a topic that is appropriate for the audience within time constraints.

I did tell her that I thought common core was a lot about critical thinking. I also told her that I want my kid to be able to back up his statements in regular life. But, she did not agree -- she said, by that, I am somewhat undermining her authority.



This is one of the things that I am trying to teach my child. That it is not really helpful to correct anyone, if it is just an opinion. Or, if the person missed out details that my child may deem important. To be honest, he does point out details that someone may have missed. I am working on how to do this in a more appropriate way. He seems to learn best during discussions, visits to places where he is allowed to talk and ask questions or while reading books/watching educational videos. He really does not respond very well to do/write this, 'because I said so'.

I will keep working on it. Hopefully, with time, he will improve.

Have you explained to him how you pick your battles with him? It is a tricky one though - if the teacher is just plain wrong is it right to let her misinform the kids? A decent teacher will never object to maths errors they have made (a lot make a game of it - spot the intentional error) or spelling mistakes as they can be used to teach checking etc. But a lot of teachers can't cope.

I wanted to come back and update and ask for suggestions. After a long wait, we finally had a thorough neuropsych testing. I don't have the scores yet, but the neuropsych said that my child was gifted and that his academic testing strongly co-related with his gifted abilities. His processing speed was low, compared to his other strengths. I will update this thread or start a new one, once I actually have the scores.

The neuropsych also said that he does not have ADHD, but thinks that he has Aspergers (even though it is removed from the DSM V), primarily due to a couple of things -- he is very precise and detail oriented , and lacks in perspective-taking. His ADHD like qualities stem from unawareness of/lack of response to other person's agenda. It was termed as its mildest form. Apparently, he is able to function okay in school, as he is always compensating his deficits with his strengths.The neuropsych also told me that considerable time was spent in discussing whether this was just a gifted child, a gifted child with ADHD or a gifted child on the spectrum. The report will also contain recommendations for the school staff/other recommendations.

What I am wondering is how this dual diagnosis will impact my child. Does anyone have a child with this profile ? What worked ? What did not work ? Am I doing my child a disservice by accepting both diagnoses ? I also did ask about dysgraphia - while his fine motor skills are sloppy, he does not meet the criteria, though the neuropsych asked me to keep an eye on it. Any advice/suggestions ?

I was thinking more about this. While Aspergers does not fit him completely, ADHD does not either, but there are some characteristics he has, for sure. I would appreciate any advice/suggestions/school strategies.

Hi mom2one,

I don't have a child with this exact profile, but I have some advice anyway My first advice is to not over think it yet - see what the report contains in terms of advice. It sounds like your ds had a thorough eval and there will be a good list of recommendations to use as a starting point.

I've found that once you have a diagnosis, the diagnosis is helpful both in advocating and in researching, but it's also important to not think to inside-the-box in terms of accommodations/remediation etc - don't get hung up on thinking "should I do this because it's ADHD" vs "should I do this other thing because it's ASD" etc. Look at each symptom/situation, and try to do what's best based on what you know of both the diagnoses and through observing your child. A lot of syndromes have overlapping symptoms, so even if, for instance, a child has handwriting challenges due to ADHD but is not dysgraphic, an accommodation that works for a dysgraphic student, such as keyboarding in place of handwriting, might be very effective and appropriate for the student who has ADHD. If your ds has "sloppy" fine motor skills and isn't dysgraphic, OT might be really helpful.

Let us know what's recommended in the report -

Best wishes,

polarbear

My DD10 had a dual ADHD, Asperger's diagnosis. She does not have ADHD, but the ADHD portion helps the school understand that she has a significant issue with executive function, attention and organization. I don't think Asperger's Syndrome is well understood by many in the education system. Putting your son's diagnosis in terms they can understand will better help them provide appropraite services for him.

I obtained the diagnosis recently, in spite of it being removed from the DSM V. I think you will find many in the psychiatry/psychology community are resisting using the the DSM V. Although extremely bright, DD10 had a multitude of issues from a young age. It took me many years to get her a diagnosis, and once I had it I was actually relieved. I think you may find that accepting the diagnosis and garnering services for your son may improve some of his anxiety and disruptive behavior at school. It really helps to have someone who understands your child teaching them. My daughter, like your son had behaviors at school that were being labeled as ODD and defiant. After her diagnosis, they were more understanding in realizing that DD10 wasn't "refusing" to do the work, they just needed to present the information to her in a different way or give her freedom to complete work her way. She also had difficulty correcting the teacher and being admonished for being rude and disruptful. There still some of this behavior in school, but at least with a diagnosis they know she isn't behaving this way intentionally. It is part of her disorder. Things to consider with an Asperger's diagnosis (every child is different, not all will need services in all these areas. I would still get the evaluations though!): OT evaluation for motor skills and sensory issues, Pragmatic language (speech therapy), social skill evaluation, executive function evaluation (BRIEF), visual motor integration (Beery VMI), social/emotional behavioral evaluation (BASC-2, SRS-II, behavioral observations), problem solving, possibly audtiory processing/perception. They are working on her IEP right now. I can post some of the accommodations they come up with if you will find it helpful.

It sounds like your son may be on the midler side of the spectrum, but it couldn't hurt to know his areas of weakness. Regarding his motor skills and writing, you can ask for accommodations like typing using a keyboard and to eliminate copying handwriting work. You wouldn't need a diagnosis for those accommodations and the school can easily implement them without providing writing services. What would probably be the most helpful is social interaction training. They can work on his social communication and his peer interactions. This kind of work will help him function normally in his classroom and later in life as an adult. All very important skills!

kitkat24