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    Joined: Apr 2013
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    My DS9 is 2E with ADHD. My DS13 is not gifted but I have been fighting the system for years because I feel he is dyslexic and meets several of the symptoms. He does have ADHD.

    So, DS13 was tested last year with the WJIII and CELF-4. On all of his teacher assessments, it says the same thing. His classroom behavior is below grade level and he is not meeting the expectations or achieving to his ability. He was enrolled in speech therapy for 2 years in Texas due to his inability to properly say words or express his wants and needs. They removed him from therapy when I expressed a desire for more assistance.

    Now we come to middle school. His standardized testing has him as below grade level on all timed tests. If he is taking a test that is not timed, he scores in the high-average to well above average. He has a huge problem with reading items and having to process into written words. He fails all of his spelling tests regardless of how much we study. 6th grade was the first time he finally stopped mixing his d's, b's, p's, q's, etc. The school psychologist stated he doesn't believe he needs further evaluation for dyslexia but I have a hard time agreeing. Please let me know what to make of his scores and what direction to go.

    WJIII-SS then %
    GAI 105 63
    Verb Comp 94 34
    Vis-Aud Learn 98 45
    Spat Relations 96 39
    Sound Blend 114 82
    Concept Form 123 94
    Vis Match 87 19
    Numbers Reversed 97 42

    The psych stated that his performance is advanced on tasks involving inductive logic but average to low average on tasks requiring visualization of spatial relationships. It was also stated that his working knowledge is much stronger than his crystalized knowledge. It then stated practice would improve crystalized knowledge but that it would continue to stay below his fluid reasoning skills.

    With the subtests, which will also be posted, the psych stated that the spelling was graded on the ability to write the words orally presented but was not judged on whether the words were actually spelled correctly.

    For math it stated his performance is advanced on tasks requiring the ability to analyze and solve applied math problems but was low average on math tasks that required speed and accuracy.

    For broad reading he was marked as advanced on tasks requiring efficient operation of reading process but was low average on tasks requiring reading decoding and the ability to identify words.

    WJIII Tests of Achievement- Grade Equivalent, SS, %
    Broad Reading 9.3 113 81
    Letter-Word ID 6.8 99 47
    Passage Comp 12.5 111 77

    Broad Math 11.7 117 87
    Calculation 10.5 112 79
    Applied Prob 13.0 119 90

    Broad Written Lang 13.0 120 91
    Spelling 13.0 118 78
    Writing Samples 14.4 119 90

    Academic Fluency 9.8 114 82
    Reading Fluency 13.0 120 91
    Math Fluency 7.2 101 53
    Writing Fluency 8.8 110 75

    For the CELF-4, it stated he had difficulty explaining how several items were related including minute/hour, empty/full, achieving/accomplishing, occupied/vacant, and sunset/dusk. While he was easily able to conclude they were related he was unable to correctly articulate the commonalities between the words.

    For number Repetition he was normal in forward number sequence but had difficulty in backward sequence for numbers resulting in low average.

    Familiar Sequence he struggled with days and months backwards as well as counting by 4's and 6's.

    CELF-4, SS, %
    Core Lang 98
    Receptive Lang 99
    Expressive Lang 99
    Lang Content 110
    Lang Memory 98
    Work Memory 88

    Subtests
    Concepts & Directions 9
    Recall Sentences 8
    Formulated Sentences 12
    Word Class Receptive 11
    Word Class Expressive 10
    Word Class Total 10
    Expressive Vocab
    Word Def 14
    Understand Spoken Para 11
    Number Repetition 7
    Familiar Sequence1/2 9

    Numbers forward he was able to recite 7 accurately but backwards was 3.

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    I am not an expert on test interpretation, but your son seems to meet many of the criteria for dyslexia. Much in your description would made me highly suspicious of dyslexia, perhaps even stealth dyslexia. Check out books such as The Dyslexic Advantage for a detailed description of dyslexic symptoms.

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    I'll start from the CELF: overall, it looks like his language ability is pretty much intact, with the only mildly weak scores in subtests with significant impact from ADHD/working memory deficits. (Recalling Sentences, Number Repetition). The remaining scaled scores are uniformly in the Average range, with word definitions high average/above average.

    This is consistent with the WJIII Verbal Comp, which is solidly average as well. It is not, however consistent with the working memory task on the WJ, Numbers Reversed, where he scored in the average range, in contrast with the CELF Number repetition, especially the backwards portion of it. Given the pre-existing Dx of ADHD, I would suspect that this inconsistency is related to fluctuating attention, as the two tasks are nearly identical.

    As to the rest of the WJ Cognitive, I see that he has a significant relative strength in fluid reasoning, the cluster with the most resemblance to what we classically have conceptualized as general intelligence (g). Some might say that this suggests that your DS13 is more like gifted than not. A significant distinction when it comes to advocating for services (assuming you are in a district that will accept the discrepancy, PSW, concordance-discordance, or similar models of LD). Processing speed is a relative weakness, which is often found in individuals with LD, ADHD, or both.

    WRT achievement: on the whole, he is achieving consistent with his fluid reasoning, rather than his General Ability or other cognitive clusters. The exceptions are Letter-Word ID and Math Fluency, where his performance is more like Verbal Comp and (somewhat) processing speed (that's Visual Matching). I mention this in case the district LD model is PSW (pattern of strengths and weaknesses) or concordance-discordance, which both look for academic strengths and weaknesses matched with relevant cognitive strengths and weaknesses.

    There's an asterisk in the discussion with regard to Spelling. If what you are reporting is an accurate interpretation of the report, then a nonstandard scoring of Spelling was used. The spelling of words on Writing Samples and Writing Fluency is as you have described (unless item scoring criteria specifically call for accurate spelling, words just have to be identifiable), but not Spelling. I would seek clarification on that, as you would not have obtained meaningful normative information on actual on-demand spelling skills if the subtest was not scored according to the manual.

    If the Spelling score is legitimate, then that is not an area of academic weakness, even using his Superior fluid reasoning as a standard of comparison.

    The most curious part of his results is the Reading cluster, which has fluency consistent with his fluid reasoning, but decoding accuracy relatively weaker. If there is a good explanation for this, it would be that he is able to use meaning and context to read short bursts of text, but that his decoding in isolation is relatively weak (though solidly in the average range). Plus, you only need to get the sense of the readings, not perfect accuracy, to score well, which means he could be making a lot of miscalls and still zipping his way through. A better oral reading fluency test, with a little more depth and precision, would be the GORT-4 or the WIAT-III ORF subtest. If his Spelling score is legit, this means that he encodes better than he decodes, which is highly unusual, especially in dyslexics (or ADHD, actually). One often sees compensated dyslexics (older and/or higher functioning) who have reached a more-or-less normalized level of decoding (usually at slower than normal rate), but still have a lot of vulnerabilities in on-demand spelling. The reverse is not expected. I would be interested to know 1) if the Spelling score is a real one, and, 2) how he would score on nonsense words for spelling (the WJ subtest is called Phoneme/Grapheme knowledge) and reading (Word Attack). A high-functioning LD individual can brute force his way to having a decent reading and spelling vocabulary, but will still be exposed as having vulnerabilities on novel vocabulary, such as nonsense words.

    Another area of assessment to look at would be a more sophisticated measure of phonological awareness, such as the CTOPP or CTOPP-2, looking in particular at the nonsense word subtests, and more complex measures of phoneme manipulation, such as phoneme reversal (only on the CTOPP) or phoneme isolation (CTOPP-2). He did fine on WJIII Sound Blending, but that is one of the easier forms of phoneme manipulation, and can be mastered by high-functioning dyslexics without necessarily addressing the underlying weaknesses that lead to problems with orthographic mapping, and, thus, labored reading of connected text.

    His struggles with expressing himself in classroom writing, especially at the middle school level, may have multiple causes, as the attentional and organizational demands of paragraph+ length writing are considerably more than those of single sentences or phrases. I would say that, regardless of LD/dyslexia diagnosis, his existing Dx of ADHD warrants a closer look at his extended writing, preferably through a gold standard instrument like the TOWL-4. The written language subtests of the WJ are no more than sentence length tasks, which do not require him to employ his (likely) deficient executive function (planning, organization, initiation, sustained attention) skills. He already has documentation of a disability (ADHD, which is usually classified as Other Health Impaired or Neurological, depending on the state), and it is irrelevant what the qualifying disability is; if he is eligible as ADHD, and he is found to have deficiencies in written expression and processing speed, then he should have accommodations and services as warranted for them, even if the district doesn't agree that he is dyslexic.

    At the very least, between ADHD and low processing speed, he ought to be able to get a 504 for extended time.

    Last edited by aeh; 07/28/14 07:34 PM. Reason: typos

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    His spelling is absolutely horrible and always has been from the time he started spelling tests. I work with him a lot and it gets very frustrating due to the district refusing to do an IEP. They say that he is not eligible for any assistance and that he is performing just fine, which he isn't.

    As far as the spelling on the test, it says multiple times that he was evaluated based on his ability but the correct spelling itself was not evaluated. He does process things very slow and most of the time things he is told have to be repeated. He excels at math even though this test does not show his actual abilities. He does horrible on timed fluency, which the test showed, but fantastic in the concepts. He is in Honors for math but has stated multiple times he is bored out of his mind. He scored A's and B's on his report card for math but did not study once or do any homework, which is why his grade dropped to a B. As far as science and humanities, he would spend an average of 3 hours a night trying to grasp the meaning of his assignments and write his assignments out. He cannot process the info and get it into words on paper.


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    Actually, I think the test does show he has very good mathematical concepts, as he scored at the 90th %ile on that subtest, right on target with his fluid reasoning, and was probably limited somewhat on the calculation subtest by lack of exposure to advanced mathematics procedures.

    In any case, I would definitely suggest more in-depth assessment of writing, with an instrument like the TOWL-4. If given the entire test, spelling and mechanics will be assessed (in context), as well as both contrived (sentence-length) and spontaneous (open-ended, supposed to be multi-paragraph, requires more executive functions) written expression. You have teacher reports that he is not meeting grade-level expectations, a diagnosis of ADHD, and concern that extended writing was not assessed in the evaluation previously conducted. And, you know you can ask for an independent evaluation, at district expense, if you disagree with the findings of the initial eligibility team meeting. As long as it's been under two years since the original eval, you can still request an IEE. If you go this route, do please provide the second examiner with a list of the instruments already administered, and the original eval report, so as not to invalidate the second round of testing with inadvertent duplications. And also bring up the concerns you have with the original testing, including points we've discussed here.

    I can understand the comments about not evaluating spelling with regard to two out of the three written language subtests, but doing so on the Spelling subtest itself is very puzzling. Can't explain why the examiner would do that. Although I have certainly seen my share of puzzling test administration behavior--and that's only what people actually admit to in their written reports!


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    I emailed the psychologist so I am hoping we can start more testing soon. I try to have patience but it can be so difficult at times. Add in that the school is giving zero assistance besides emailing me complaints on DS's work it is very frustrating. I have had to fight the district concerning DS9 to the point that he was pulled from the school and transferred out of district in order to get the proper education.

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    Also, he was tested in December 2013.

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    aeh,
    Can you explain more on the coding vs decoding?

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    Encoding (spelling) means generating the written form of a word from the oral/spoken form. Decoding (reading) means generating the spoken form of a word from its written form. For most people, decoding is easier, because, in English, there are multiple spellings for many sounds, so, while one can more readily recognize a spelling as a representation of a phoneme, selecting the correct grapheme (spelling) for a sound is trickier.


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    Gotcha. Yeah, he can look at a word and copy it but still spell it wrong. When he hears it he sounds it out and seems to spell better even though that isn't great itself.

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    Hmm. Are you saying that his nearpoint copying of a word can be wrong? How's his handwriting? Has he been looked at by an occupational therapist, for perceptual-motor or visual-motor integration, or a vision therapist/developmental optometrist, for visual tracking? Early speech delays are often related to oral-motor coordination issues, which would link up with other motor planning stuff that might impact writing, in particular.


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    He was in speech and occupational therapy early on. He used to be ambidextrous up until he started school. The occupational therapist taught him to use a tripod hold on the pencil but he still uses his fist to hold utensils and other items. He is near sighted and has suffered from headaches from the age of 7. The optometrist evaluated him and found him to have minor astigmatisms and he is near sighted. I was unaware of developmental optometrists until recently but we will get a referral to one at his upcoming appointment. He will be getting a referral to the same psychologist my younger son uses as well.

    A little back story on him: He was 6 weeks premature due to severe preeclampsia but weighed in at 8lbs 3oz (I have big babies). He needed some extra care at the hospital with suctioning and feeding. He was lactose intolerant to the lactose in breast milk and had sensitivities to soy and lactose/lactose free formulas. He had to be put on a special diet of formula that was already broken down for easy digestion. He was hospitalized at 3 weeks with projectile vomiting and difficulties eating. He was also hospitalized 3 times before age 2 for RSV. He had multiple ear infections resulting in ruptured ear drums 3 times and ended up with tubes placed. He also had severe issues with strep throat and high fevers resulting in scarlett fever. His tonsils and adenoids had to be removed at 5 as well.

    He was a summer birthday and fell into the group where he could attend kindergarten at 5 or 6, even taking into account the actual BD vs due date. We chose to start him at 5 based on the recommendations of his therapy team.

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    My, that is a big baby! We had a 34-weeker, too, but ours was just about half the size of yours.

    Has he ever been evaluated for PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Strep infections)? While the most publicized behavioral symptom associated with PANDAS is OCD, ADHD-type symptoms and learning difficulties, especially in handwriting, have also been reported. I'm not an MD, but his early infection history, particularly scarlet fever, in combination with the ADHD, handwriting, visual issues make me wonder if there might be value in having a neurologist evaluate him for PANDAS. With all those food sensitivities in infancy and early childhood, he sounds like he might be predisposed to autoimmune syndromes.

    If you do not see anxious/obsessive/compulsive symptoms in him, this is much less likely.

    Multiple early ear infections can often have an impact on phonological processing, due to difficulty hearing the sounds, which can then surface as a reading disability later on.


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    He is actually very anxious and tends to have some OCD tendencies. PANDAS is not something I have thought about but I will definitely bring it up with his doctor.

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    Reading the description of PANDAS I would be inclined to think he does not have that. The only thing he truly has in common is the strep infections. Yes, he has anxiety and some OCD type tendencies but not like described. I think his anxiety is linked more to his fear of failure because it has greatly increased over the past 2 years and tends to increase with regards to learning anything new.

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    OK, so I just emailed the district Special Services director and requested an Individualized Educational Evaluation which is provided by an individual provider not affiliated with the district at the district's expense. During my meeting today with the director she informed me that dyslexia is not a LD and the district is not required in any way to provide services. According to federal law and the Supreme Court they are.

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    jaggirl - you've already gotten great advice, I have just a few things to add.

    On the CELF-4, although your ds' scores are all within average range, there's one "gotcha" you might want to look for or be aware of. The CELF subtests aren't timed (or at least some of them aren't timed). My ds had a significant expressive language challenge yet he scored very well on most of the CELF subtests, including the subtest that defines his challenge. The thing was - on this one particular subtest, he took an unusually long time to answer the questions, and the SLP who administered the test noted that, noted a slight discrepancy when looking at that subtest vs his other subtests, and more significantly noted a correlation between that subtest and the things we'd observed when communicating with him. So in other words, average and above average scores on the CELF don't necessarily mean there is no expressive language challenge.

    Have you tried contacting an advocate? There are advocate services (parent navigators) available in many areas that are funded by the Federal Govt. and our local advocates group was tremendously helpful in helping me advocate for an IEP for my ds in public school.

    Quote
    During my meeting today with the director she informed me that dyslexia is not a LD and the district is not required in any way to provide services. According to federal law and the Supreme Court they are.

    After every single meeting (or phone conversation, or verbal conversation) you have when advocating, it's a good idea to send a quick email to everyone who was at the meeting (or took part in the conversation) restating what *you* heard said and you heard agreed to (or what you heard stated as concerns) - basically a summary of what was said. Then add "this is my understanding - please let me know if I've missed anything or misunderstood anything." That gives the school staff the opportunity to clarify what they've said. It's easy for people to say things off-the-cuff in meetings or one-on-one conversations that aren't technically correct - and there could be any reason for it - maybe she just wanted to get you out of her office, maybe she really meant to say that the district is not required to provide services unless a need is demonstrated, or maybe she's just clueless. Whatever the reason, send her the email. 9 times out of 10, that worked to get our school staff to back off of any type of intimidation etc that they tried thinking we (parents) didn't know what our children's rights were under the law.

    The last thing I'll add is that some of what you wrote is similar to my ds who has Developmental Coordination Disorder - the not having a preferred hand until school, issues with timed tests etc. So if you're looking for other things to google, there's something for you to look at smile

    Hang in there! Let us know how the district responds to your request.

    Best wishes,

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    You know what jumps out at me? Dyspraxia... but I am no expert and am biased b/c my kid has it. Fluency issues, spatial deficits, poor spelling, sequencing issues, normal in forward number sequence but had difficulty in backward sequence for numbers... There is a whole physical thing that goes along with dyspraxia... but these are all the learning issues that go with it. Has anyone ever considered it for him?

    Last edited by Irena; 07/30/14 02:40 PM.
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    Oh I see it jumped out for Polarbear too! We crossed posted! Jaggirl, DCD is another name for or a type of dyspraxia... (apparently there is all sorts of confusion in the field right now as to what to call this disorder - motor apraxia, dyspraxia, developmental coordination disorder, etc. are all used interchangeably).

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    Oh and my DS got very OCD - his anxiety goes sky high when his disorder was not recognized, understood and accommodated... Now that he knows and I know and the school knows what his challenges are and we have accommodations and have gotten some very helpful therapies he anxiety is much better. smile

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    Originally Posted by Irena
    Oh and my DS got very OCD - his anxiety goes sky high when his disorder was not recognized, understood and accommodated... Now that he knows and I know and the school knows what his challenges are and we have accommodations and have gotten some very helpful therapies he anxiety is much better. smile

    I forgot to mention that but same for my ds - his anxiety was sky high prior to getting a proper diagnosis and accommodations. Anxiety was actually what drove us to have ds evaluated - we were totally clueless that anything else was going on.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    Thank you guys so much! I will start Googling away to get more info.

    I did email the director about our discussion today as well. I have a tendency to do that after serving in the military regardless of the situation lol.

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    OK, I am looking at dyspraxia and OMG, it is my son! Pronouncing words and being misunderstood, establishing left or right hand dominance, bumping into things-young child. School age-poor pencil grip, slow handwriting, letter formation, fine motor skills (couldn't button his clothes until 3rd grade and still has difficulty with shoe tying but wasn't able to actually tie until almost 5th grade), riding a bike (unable to remove training wheels until age 9), horrid sense of direction, phobias and some obsessive behavior. Teen-writing and typing, personal grooming (I still help him with his teeth), clumsiness. Just, wow.

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    Oh, and he still messes up his left from right.

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    OK, I just got off the phone with the state (Washington OSPI). They were actually shocked at the info I was given by the district Special Services director. They said that dyslexia and ADHD, by both state and federal laws, is in fact a LD and they are required to follow the federal laws in full. The state actual recommended that I file a Civil Rights complaint at the federal level due to the district refusing to follow the federal disability laws. According to OSPI, DS13's scores do qualify him for a 505 plan at a minimum or an IEP based on the severe discrepancy classification for learning disabilities.

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    Ahhh, ok I need to get all my thoughts together before I type lol. Here are his scores from the BOT2 with the occupational therapist. SS: Mean 50, SD 10

    Fine Motor Precision 41
    Fine Motor Integration 39
    Fine Motor Control 39
    Manual Dexterity 33
    Upper Limb Coordination 39
    Manual Coordination 39

    So, he is greater than 1 SD from the mean on all items except Fine Motor Precision but the OT said he is completely normal? I don't understand.

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    There are different definitions of normal, depending on the setting. Sometimes you will get reports that show mild normative deficits (such as you have here, with the exception of Manual Dexterity, which is more of a moderate deficit), but "within functional limits", which is more of a clinical judgment call, and doesn't mean that an individual is completely normal, but that they can get by with their activities of daily living. TBH, school-based OTs don't much like to suggest direct service (therapy) once kids hit middle school, as their experience usually is scads of no-shows and non-compliant students, even more so than for other service providers, like educational specialists and speech/language therapists. If kids won't engage, it's a waste of time for both service provider and client. Also, by that time, most kids have ingrained habits, which are quite intractable to remediation. Consequently, for borderline kids, they tend to lean away from treatment. This does not mean your kid doesn't have weaknesses in this area, or that he would not benefit from therapy, of course.

    And, BTW, dyslexia is just another name for reading disability, and is absolutely a federal IDEIA qualifying disability. If you even mention OCR to the school, you are likely to get a whole lot more cooperation--although they won't be saying nice things about you behind your back. If OCR substantiates your claims, they really go over the school's behavior toward every federally protected class with a fine-tooth comb--even the ones you haven't complained about. No school wants to go through that.


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    I have not told the district yet about OCR. I am giving them their 15 days to contact me back concerning the IEE.

    I found the full breakdown of my son's score but I really have no clue what they mean:

    WJIII Tests Of Acheivement

    CLUSTER/Test Raw W AE EASY to DIFF RPI SS (90% Band) GE
    Brief Achievement - 535 15-11 13-6 23 98/90 117(111-123) 10.4

    Broad Reading - 524 14-9 12-5 20 96/90 113(107-119) 9.3
    Broad Math - 529 17-1 13-3 >30 97/90 117(112-123) 11.6
    Broad Written Lang - 526 21 13-5 >28 98/90 120(113-128) 13.0

    Brief Writing - 523 13-4 1-5 16-0 94/90 105(98-112) 7.9
    Brief Math - 540 25 15-0 >30 99/90 121(115-127) 13.0
    Math Calc Skills - 520 14-2 11-7 >24 95/90 109(103-115) 8.8
    Brief Writing - 529 >30 14-8 >30 98/90 123(115-131) 13.0
    Written Expression - 521 19 12-9 >24 97/90 118(108-127) 13.0

    Academic Skills - 530 14-6 12-5 19 96/90 112(106-119) 9.0
    Academic Fluency - 518 15-4 12-5 >24 96/90 114(108-119) 9.8
    Academic Apps - 531 29 15-1 >30 98/90 120(115-126) 13.0

    Letter-Word ID 60 523 12-3 11-0 13-0 89/90 99(94-104) 6.8
    Applied Problems 48 548 >30 17-5 >30 99/90 119(113-125) 13.0
    Spelling 49 536 22 14-9 >30 99/90 118(109-126) 13.0
    Passage Comp 39 522 18-0 12-6 >30 97/90 111(101-121) 12.5
    Calculation 37 533 16-0 12-8 >23 97/90 112(104-121) 10.5
    Writing Samples 17-D 522 >30 14-6 >30 98/90 119(109-129) 14.4
    CLUSTER/Test Raw W AE EASY to DIFF RPI SS (90% Band) GE
    Reading Fluency 78 528 >30 15-1 >30 99/90 120(114-126) 13.0
    Math Fluency 88 507 12-8 9-7 17-8 91/90 101(97-105) 7.2
    Writing Fluency 25 521 14-3 11-10 >21 95/90 110(98-121) 8.8

    WJIII Tests Of Cognitive Abilities
    CLUSTER/Test Raw W AE EASY to DIFF RPI SS (90% Band) GE
    GIA (Std) - 512 13-4 10-4 17-10 92/90 105(99-110) 8.1

    Verbal Ability - 505 10-11 9-2 13-2 81/90 94(87-101) 5.6
    Thinking Ability - 515 >23 11-9 >23 96/90 114(108-121) 13.0
    Cog Efficiency - 506 11-0 9-4 13-6 82/90 93(85-101) 5.6

    Verbal Comp - 505 10-11 9-2 13-2 81/90 94(87-101) 5.6
    Visual-Auditory Learn 10-E 503 11-9 7-7 >19 89/90 98(87-109) 6.3
    Spatial Relations 65-D 502 10-11 7-1 >25 87/90 96(89-104) 5.5
    Sound Blending 25 522 21 13-10 >25 98/90 114(105-122) 13.0
    Concept Formation 38-E 534 >18-8 >18-8 >18-8 99/90 123(112-134) >17.8
    Visual Matching 40-2 504 10-6 9-0 12-10 78/90 87(78-96) 5.1
    Numbers Reversed 13 509 11-6 9-9 14-3 85/90 97(87-107) 6.1

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    Raw Score = the actual number of items correct; usually includes credit for items not administered that occurred below the basal, which is a certain number of easy items correct in a row (usually six on the WJ), except in the case of item sets, which are usually denoted by a letter attached to the raw score. Not every line has a raw score reported, because some of them are cluster scores, which are derived from the individual subtest standard scores.

    W = this is a unit of Rasch scaling, which is continuous over age levels, and intended to represent equal changes in difficulty levels along the scale, allowing you to compare absolute growth from one administration to another, instead of normative growth (which would be how well you are keeping pace with the expected growth of your age-peers).

    AE = age equivalent, which tells you the age level for whom the 50th %ile obtained the same raw score as you. It most certainly does not say that the instructional level or classroom performance level of this student is this age, or that they should be placed at that level. Universally considered a poor measure by testing & measurement professionals, but popular with teachers and parents, which is why it's still here.

    Easy to Diff = the expected zone of proximal development, using age equivalents. Subject to the same problems as AE.

    RPI = a representation of mastery, based on the W score. It has been likened to the 20/20 system of denoting visual acuity. The second /90 describes the difficulty level at which the average person of this age in the norm group achieved 90% success. The first number means what your %age level of success would be predicted to be on the same type of task. It has a very low ceiling, as it is really designed to look for areas of struggle, not advancement.

    SS = norm-reference standard score, where 100 is the mean, and 15 is the standard deviation, comparing your relative standing to the age/grade-matched normative group.

    (90% Band) = 90% confidence interval, a representation of the standard error of measurement and it's implications for the SS, as a sample of behavior only, and not the be-all and end-all.

    GE = grade equivalent, similar to the AE, but using grade norms. Subject to the same concerns.

    Last edited by aeh; 07/30/14 07:55 PM. Reason: a little more on Rasch

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    So for the RPI, is it a negative if it is below the 90? Does that show struggle for my son? Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions BTW. I just want to make sure I have all of the info I need when we see a different evaluator.

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    An RPI of 82 or below would indicate a task-type that he would be expected to find difficult. The lower the RPI, the greater the challenge.


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    Gotcha. Thank you. Is there a "cut-off" where you would expect to see difficulty?

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    So, the ones that are all below 90 are the ones that need further looking into?

    Verbal Ability 81/90
    Cog Efficiency 82/90
    Vis Aud Learn 89/90
    Spatial Relations 87/90
    Visual Matching 78/90
    Numbers Reversed 85/90

    What does this normally signify? These are all of the ones below the 90

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    The cut-off is usually 82/90. If you are between 82 and 95/90, then that is in the instructional zone, and considered to be normal. If you are below 82, then tasks would be expected to be somewhat difficult. If you are below 67, then they would be expected to be quite challenging. Below 24, extremely difficult. Below 3, unrealistic. Above 95, it's probably on the easy side. In school settings, a lot of evaluators use 70 as the broad cutoff (you can compare it to getting a C-/D when most kids are getting an A-/B+, so barely passing, thus not really keeping up with grade-level expectations).

    So he has three scores in the moderately difficult range:
    Verbal Ability 81/90
    Cog Efficiency 82/90
    Visual Matching 78/90

    Two of them are clusters, and one is a subtest, which feeds into the second cluster score (meaning they stem from the same weakness). Cognitive Efficiency and Visual Matching are both reflections of visual-motor speed, and will most definitely be impacted by fine-motor, perceptual-motor, and handwriting skills.

    The remaining subtests that you've pointed out would not normally warrant further investigation, as they are well within the average range, except in the context of being significantly different from his other, higher subtest scores.


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    So as a whole, those scores as well as the scores on the BOT correlate with each other showing difficulty. Am I understanding that correctly?

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    Yes, the overall profile shows consistent mild normative weaknesses in fine motor dexterity and speed. The significance of these otherwise mild weaknesses is amplified by the magnitude of his relative cognitive and academic strengths.


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    So, the district called me today after I called the state and they informed me that my son does, in fact, have a qualifying LD under the PSW with the states laws on SLD (severe learning discrepancy). I meet with them on Tuesday to go over the assistance offers as well as the more in depth testing they want to do on him. Thank you aeh! Much of the advice you gave is what made them realize I won't give up. The director stated I was able to receive amazingly good and accurate advice.

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    You are so welcome. I'm happy things are moving in a good direction for you and your son now!


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    I am cautiously optimistic. After the issues we had with my younger son, I am not holding my breath. However, I think they are learning that I do not play. It really is sad that you have to fight so hard for quality education on either side. I have had to have the gifted fight and this fight. DS9 goes out of district due to our district's failure of his needs. Unfortunately, it isn't as easy to have an out of district school accept a child with an undiagnosed LD and failing scores on the state tests.

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    So, I am going to add in his CogAT scores from 6th grade taken 1/2013. I am not one to really trust in the CogAT (it horribly missed DS9) but I don't know if it may provide further insight with DS13.

    Abilities SAS Stanine %Rank #Items #Att #Correct
    Verbal 111 6 75 65 65 53
    Quantitative 121 8 91 60 60 54
    Nonverbal 119 7 88 65 63 58
    Composite 119 7 88

    Those are listed under his national age scores, the national grade scores:
    Ability Stanine %Rank
    Verbal 6 71
    Quantitative 8 90
    Nonverbal 7 88

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    DS7 has DCD and we were able to get him an IEP (Physically Impaired) with DCD as the medical diagnosis. We had a neuropsych diagnose, although a pediatric neurologist told me the same thing when he was 4 (but it wasn't in his records). I am just bringing this up because it seems to be a fairly flexible category in terms of qualifying and getting services although it looks like you are making progress with an LD category. DS gets speech, OT, adapted phy ed (in addition to regular phy ed), organizational skills help, and writing with a spec. ed teacher. They presumably put it all under that PI category. If a kid is "slow" due to the disability, and it interferes with their learning, that's really all that is required to qualify. His Woodcock Johnson Achievement subtests scores were all above the 80th percentile, and he still is getting help with writing, because he wasn't accomplishing much in class.
    I had a similar struggle--had to call the State before the district would do anything. His IEP manager, the principal, and the school OT had no clue what the special ed categories were! They seemed to think there were like 2, when it's really 12 or 13. The spec. ed director told me almost no one has a PI IEP, and my guess it's because they simply don't evaluate or write IEPs for most kids who would qualify for one.
    As for the BOT2, DS has had it several times and his scores are always all over the place. I think on the latest test, he actually scored above the 50th percentile. Part of it is that he has excellent spatial ability (despite the dyspraxia) and is able to use that to compensate, for instance copying designs or patterns. He also tends to improve after he's been in private therapy, and then declines again when he is exited.
    DS also has hypotonia which is often related to DCD...he wouldn't be able to jump off something more than a couple feet tall or hang onto a bar for more than a couple seconds (monkey bars out of the question). He had a traumatic brain injury and seemed to get worse after that which complicates things further. It's hard to figure out what the main issue is and the cause. He's another kid that had a lot of ear infections and was always sick. He had normal development until 1.5, then he was sick and snotty all the time and stopped developing normally. He had ear tubes/adenoids as well but about a year went by before anyone would do anything.

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    What is a PI IEP?

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    PI stands for physically impaired. It's one of the spec. ed categories. So a kid with a motor disorder (like DCD) would fall under that if it interferes with their learning. One thing the woman from the State gave me that was helpful was a link to all the categories and what exactly the qualifying criteria are. Another category that DCD kids somethings go under is "Other Health Impairments". ADHD goes under that as well.

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    Got it. One issue I am having is my district said they are not required to recognize any developmental delays as LD's after the age of 9. Their excuse is kids outgrow developmental delays. So yes, it is still going to be a big fight.

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    Except DCD isn't a delay, it's more along the lines of a neurological motor disorder, or learning disability involving motor skills. So if he does actually have that, all you'd need to do is get medical documentation from someone like a neurologist or neuropsych (and have that person state he should have accommodations in school and therapy). Of course if he scored well on the BOT2, that might be a problem. DS's neuropsych gave him the Grooved Pegboard test for fine motor, and he did horrible, like well under the first percentile. That might be similar to the dexterity section of the BOT though. DS is very slow on any motor test that is timed. See if you can get the BOT results and what he scored for just the sections that are timed. DS's scores kind of average out because he's very high on some things like visual perception and balance, bringing his overall scores up. There are other tests involving motor skills as well. The school gave him a different test for gross motor and he scored lower than the BOT2.

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    He scored close to 2 standard deviations below the mean on all but one subtest. On that he scored 1 standard deviation below the mean.

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    For which test? The BOT?

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    Neurological is another disability classification that you could look into. Depending on the state and the evaluator giving the Dx, ADHD, slow processing speed, DCD can end up there, too.

    Schools are not allowed to simply transition kids on IEPs for developmental delay straight to LD at age nine. They have to re-qualify them under some other disability. The original intent was to reduce stigma for students identified with disabilities, by avoiding the application of heavy-duty labels at a young age, when it's not entirely clear what is really going on, and to cast a slightly wider net to catch disabilities before students fall as far behind in academics. So the idea was specifically to allow some students to outgrow (or really, be remediated out of) early delays without trapping them in special education for their entire careers--which for many underprivileged kids restricts their access to the broadest range of instruction. It was a response both to the desire to prevent further failure as early as possible, and to the issue of equity and disproportionality in special education (over-identification of poor and minority children).

    Like many well-intentioned initiatives, there have been unintended consequences.


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    I looked back at your post about the BOT2 and it looks like for most of the subtests he's around 1 standard deviation below the mean, which is around 15th percentile I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong). For certain services, like adapted phy ed, I think schools are looking for more like 2 standard deviations below the mean but I'm not sure if it needs to be an overall score, or just a certain sub-score, or if it varies from state to state. I don't like the BOT2 because I think very few sections are timed. So it makes "slow" kids look more adept than they really are. And the timed sections are combined with untimed sections to produce the subtest scores like "manual dexterity".
    For the PI category, though, I don't know if it really matters. He could probably still qualify for that category as long as you have a diagnosis, he just may not receive certain services like adapted phy ed. How does he do in physical education? What type of school services are you looking for? I would think about that, and then figure out which spec. ed category would be the most helpful. I'm not familiar enough with the laws to know the ins and outs of all the categories and what services they can get with each category. All I know is that the PI category has given DS what he needs in terms of speech, writing, OT, help with gross motor skills, etc. He had a Speech IEP before they switched it to PI. They switched it to PI so other services, like OT and Writing, could be added. If your DS has ADHD you could probably argue for a "Other Health Impairments" IEP and get certain services that way without even bothering with a DCD diagnosis. He may qualify for help with reading, writing, etc. under that category.

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    Originally Posted by aeh
    Neurological is another disability classification that you could look into.

    Do the states differ on what the actual categories are? Because I don't think that exists here. They have Traumatic Brain Injury and Cognitively Impaired (I think it's called), which would be kids with low IQ. But no "Neurological".

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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    Originally Posted by aeh
    Neurological is another disability classification that you could look into.

    Do the states differ on what the actual categories are? Because I don't think that exists here. They have Traumatic Brain Injury and Cognitively Impaired (I think it's called), which would be kids with low IQ. But no "Neurological".

    Yes. Sorry, I was thinking of the states I'm familiar with. If neurological is an option in your state, it has the advantage that the impairment doesn't have to result from a TBI; it can be from any origin, as long as there is a neurologist's dx. Cognitively Impaired is usually in its own category (previously Mental Retardation in the federal law, recently changed to Intellectual Disability).

    Some states are actually non-categorical, and have eligibility guidelines based on needs and services, without disability labels.


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    The school stated they categorize dyspraxia as a developmental delay and that it is only covered through the age of 9. After that he is on his own. We have an appointment next week for a referral to a nueropsych and behavioral psych for further review. He just had a developmental optometry appointment 2 weeks ago. That doctor said that while he technically cannot diagnose dyslexia his profile is very much in line with diagnosed dyslexics.

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    Originally Posted by jaggirl47
    The school stated they categorize dyspraxia as a developmental delay and that it is only covered through the age of 9. After that he is on his own. We have an appointment next week for a referral to a nueropsych and behavioral psych for further review. He just had a developmental optometry appointment 2 weeks ago. That doctor said that while he technically cannot diagnose dyslexia his profile is very much in line with diagnosed dyslexics.


    Bizarre--I don't see how they can legally get away with that. It's like classifying ADHD as a "developmental delay", saying kids "grow out of it".

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    Well, he goes through more testing and I have called the district out on breaking the state and federal laws already. The best thing is I have it in writing so if they try to refuse I will file a civil rights violation.

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    Oh, and he is ADHD as well

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    I'm actually surprised that anyone in your district knows what it is. Here, they didn't. The POHI teacher knew what it was but she works in more than one district, I think. No one at the school knew. Not sure if the spec. ed directors knew or if they were faking it. The asst. special ed director doesn't know what "dysgraphia" is.

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    So, here is the latest update.

    I met with the new psychologist that will be doing all of his new testing. He was very irritated at the lack of attention the last psychologist had with the discrepancies in DS13's testing. He also felt that with the high achievement on the WJ III academic testing compared to the low scores on many areas of the WJIII cognitive that the GIA was extremely depressed and not in the least bit accurate. He stated at our meeting last week that DS13 should have been placed with an IEP because what little testing that was done showed there were several issues. I feel like I am finally getting somewhere!

    DS13 also took the ACT 2 weeks ago. There was really no reason other than it is good practice for him and it is a good above level test. He did absolutely no test prep whatsoever and did all of the math without a calculator (we forgot it at home-oops). Here are his scores:

    Composite 16
    English 15
    Usage Mechanics 07
    Rhetorical Skills 08
    Mathematics 17
    Pre-Alg/Elementary Alg 07
    Algebra/Coord Geometry 07
    Plane Geo/Trigonometry 11
    Reading 18
    Social Studies/Science 08
    Arts/Literature 09
    Science 14

    I am very proud of him with these scores and I feel with all of the issues he has had that he did extremely well. His English scores correspond very well with the issues he has shown in school. His Algebra scores were very surprising to me because he passed Pre-Algebra with A's and has shown no difficulty with Algebra 1 so far. His Trigonometry score blew me out of the water because he has never seen 99% of the items on that area of the test. Science score doesn't surprise me because his school district does absolutely no science until 7th grade and his science instruction last year was extremely poor.

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    Oh, I do want to add that his reading score qualified him for Johns Hopkins CTY, which I was not expecting. He missed the math qualification by 1 point and math has always been his strongest subject by far.

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    We are in WA and when DD's IEP was updated to reflect her ADHD diagnosis, it was under the "health impaired" category. Before the official diagnosis, I believe she was "developmental delay."

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    He still doesn't have an IEP, even with the ADHD diagnosis. Our private psychologist also confirmed stealth dyslexia. We are waiting on the neuropsych but both the pediatrician and private psychologist believe he has dyspraxia.

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    I don't know anything about the ACT but it sounds like he did a great job on it. I'm glad you were able t o find a psych that knows whathe is doing, so maybe you will get somewhere now.

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    Originally Posted by blackcat
    Originally Posted by jaggirl47
    The school stated they categorize dyspraxia as a developmental delay and that it is only covered through the age of 9. After that he is on his own. We have an appointment next week for a referral to a nueropsych and behavioral psych for further review. He just had a developmental optometry appointment 2 weeks ago. That doctor said that while he technically cannot diagnose dyslexia his profile is very much in line with diagnosed dyslexics.


    Bizarre--I don't see how they can legally get away with that. It's like classifying ADHD as a "developmental delay", saying kids "grow out of it".

    Agree with blackcat.

    Services and accommodations are legally required to be based on the needs of the student, not the diagnosis or age.

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    I know but the state classifies certain things as developmental. By law developmental delays only have to be covered for a certain amount of time. The OCR may be getting a formal complaint from me very soon.

    Blackcat, I am very proud of him for his ACT's. Like I said in the other post, he did absolutely no test prep and was the only one in there without a calculator for the math. He will be taking the SAT's in December because their English/critical reading is more along the lines with his difficulties.

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