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    #197197 - 07/25/14 12:39 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: JonLaw]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: JonLaw
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    No, the patterns haven't changed much, because the society producing those patterns hasn't changed much. Predicting patterns is not the point of the book, though. It purports to give an analysis of why those patterns exist, and how they emerge.


    Plus, being poor makes you stupid.

    Because money.


    Yep. From that same Reason.com article I linked above, bolding added:

    Quote:
    The authors present evidence that IQ rises with age and with years of schooling completed. IQ may actually be a better measure of the environment facing children than the measure of environment used by Murray and Herrnstein. They use IQ to predict schooling, but schooling produces IQ. Hence, they are especially likely to find a strong measured effect of "IQ" on schooling.


    But then, this becomes a "duh" sort of observation once you realize that the authors are using AFQT scores as a proxy for IQ, and that the individuals in their data set were tested between age 15-23. The AFQT is not an IQ measure, and was never designed to be one. Its purpose is to predict success in military trade schools, and like the SAT (which was also never designed as an IQ test, but to predict success in college), it mostly measures achievement. So, does academic achievement increase with age and schooling? Duh. Does that say anything about general intelligence? No. If we're truly measuring g, then the results should be stable across age groups, so that's an indicator that there's something wrong here.

    Given that they started with a data set that does not measure what they purport it to measure, any conclusions are bound to be garbage, because garbage in equals garbage out. And that was only the first of their great many mistakes.

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    #197198 - 07/25/14 12:40 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: ]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: eema
    Originally Posted By: Wren

    I moved to a pretty nice area in Toronto, but after being in NYC and spending decades on Wall Street, I didn't realize how average most people think. The talent pool is really shallow. Did not realize.


    Torontonians tend to be modest and unassuming, our mayor notwithstanding. There's lots of talent here. We just don't feel that we need to to talk about. We must be doing something right. Wall Street tanked in the last recession. Canada's economy weathered the storm very well. It's a bit like the tortoise and the hare.


    Um, that's because Wall Street *was* the last recession.

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    #197199 - 07/25/14 12:53 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: intparent]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3288
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: intparent
    My kid played Quiz Bowl because it was fun, not to "win the admissions race".


    Apologies. I wasn't aiming for your daughter, but for a educational culture that generally celebrates superficiality over depth.

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    #197202 - 07/25/14 01:34 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: MegMeg]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: MegMeg
    Just want to add, there ARE ways to get a top-notch education at a larger public university. HK's DD, for example, is already hangin' with a research team. But me, as an undergrad? I was shy, grouchy, and unsure what I wanted to study. I would have drowned in anonymity at a large school.


    I would have, too. But I managed to get a top-notch education at a small public directional college. Weird, I know-- but when you're that smart at a place like that, the faculty still know what you are, and they nurture it because they don't see it all that often. NO anonymity-- even if you might sometimes prefer that if you're on the underachiever track. blush Not that I'd know anything about that... {ahem}

    Look the top notch graduate programs churn out top-notch PhD's at a regular clip-- and fair numbers of them wind up at small schools-- even public ones. No, they aren't FAMOUS... but some of them are still VERY bright, and engaging educators who are excellent mentors, focused on undergraduate education. It can be like a SLAC, if you're at the sweet spot there.

    The other thing-- and I think this is why my education worked out the way that it did, honestly-- is something that HAS changed. It's that NOW, college administrators are so worried about "retention" that they have become increasingly willing to compromise academic integrity to get it. That is, loads more hand-holding and fluff assignments, etc. When I was a student, nada. If you didn't EARN a better grade, nobody was going to go out of their way to get you extra help... and you were going to flunk that class. {shrug} Nobody ever imagined the lengths to which modern college faculty are expected to go in making things EASY for students who are struggling.

    So yeah-- I'll buy that the cohort argument may well be more applicable now than it was back in the day.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #197206 - 07/25/14 01:40 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    amylou Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/01/10
    Posts: 263
    To derail this thread a bit, I'd like your recommendations on colleges for my dd. So I have a rising 9th grader (not the computer addict I mentioned in another thread yesterday) who is not a pleaser. She tests well (her 7th grade SAT scores would be the envy of most HS seniors), is likely to get great grades through high school, and may even do something interesting outside of academics in high school (if it doesn't interfere too much with her tumblr habit), but will. not. play. the admissions game. She is a deep thinker about big things, and takes *nothing* for granted. She has a prickly personality and disdains the material interests of her peers. I think "her people" are out there somewhere, and she will shine in college if she can find them, but they are going to be hard to find. She is leaning toward science right now, but her interests are very broad (philosophy, fiction writing, art, ….) Anyone know of any colleges well-suited for deep-thinking porcupines? It seems the Ivies are out of the question...

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    #197207 - 07/25/14 01:48 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    amylou-- I'll let you know how things go this coming year. My DD had a somewhat similar profile. We opted for an honors college in a land-grant flagship with a large research footprint in STEM. That way, she gets the SLAC treatment via the Honors Baccalaureate requirements (and specialty coursework, priority registration, etc.) and also gets the research environment to be found at a larger PhD-granting institution with professional schools attached to it.

    It was this, or a consortium-member school like HMC or MIT, where she could have taken humanities courses at a high level outside of her major. She has interests that are too broad for a place like SIT or RPI, much as they would have loved to have her. This also has the additional merit of being-- FREE given the amount of merit aid they tossed her way.


    Depending upon her specific interests, Reed or St. Johns sound like very good fits, too, Amylou-- but Reed is quite "crunchy." (Wasn't my DD's thing at all).
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #197208 - 07/25/14 02:18 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    amylou Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/01/10
    Posts: 263
    Thanks, HK. Our large state flagship does not have something like your honors college, so I'd worry that she would get isolated here (I am on the faculty), unless her interests are more focused by then. But perhaps another state….

    And thanks also for the other interesting ideas. HMC had kinda slipped my mind, as had St. John's (the one in Santa Fe, right?). Those are good ones to have in mind. And of course Reed - crunchy might be okay to a point, but I expect a low tolerance on her part for band-wagon crunchiness. And getting into MIT is by no means a given - I think a bit of admissions game-playing is needed there and it will really depend on how hs goes. And I've not heard of SIT - the School of International Training?

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    #197212 - 07/25/14 03:07 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    NotSoGifted Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/14/12
    Posts: 445
    My middle kid has received a lot of info from St. John's (they have a MD campus too, in case you are on the East Coast). While I think she would love the intellectual aspect, I don't think she could attend a school without varsity sports (and that touts their intercollegiate croquet team).

    There are lots of great LACs in the NE part of the country. They might have your kid's people Amylou - check out the list of top LACs on College Confidential.

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    #197213 - 07/25/14 03:24 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    MegMeg Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/14/10
    Posts: 615
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Many researchers thought it was Mainstream Science on Intelligence.

    And the take-down of the WSJ article (including the cherry-picked and non-expert status of those researchers) is contained in that very same Wikipedia article.

    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    A characteristic of "garbage science" is that it makes false predictions.

    Well, no. A thing that can make false predictions is called a "hypothesis." Some hypotheses turn out to be supported by the evidence and some not. Being proved wrong doesn't retroactively make it not good science.

    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Twenty years after the publication of the Bell Curve, the patterns documented in the book do not seem to have changed.

    You're misunderstanding what scientists mean when they say that a theory generates predictions. It specifically excludes re-observations of the original phenomenon from which the theory was derived. They have to be new predictions, preferably ones that uniquely distinguish this theory from what would be predicted by the competing theories.

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    #197215 - 07/25/14 04:43 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: amylou]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: amylou
    Thanks, HK. Our large state flagship does not have something like your honors college, so I'd worry that she would get isolated here (I am on the faculty), unless her interests are more focused by then. But perhaps another state….

    And thanks also for the other interesting ideas. HMC had kinda slipped my mind, as had St. John's (the one in Santa Fe, right?). Those are good ones to have in mind. And of course Reed - crunchy might be okay to a point, but I expect a low tolerance on her part for band-wagon crunchiness. And getting into MIT is by no means a given - I think a bit of admissions game-playing is needed there and it will really depend on how hs goes. And I've not heard of SIT - the School of International Training?


    Stevens Institute of Technology. wink It's the tech school that nobody but alums seems to know about, but MAN, is it a good one.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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