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    #197159 - 07/25/14 05:39 AM Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child?
    cammom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/11/13
    Posts: 299
    I'm asking this question because sometimes I feel overwhelmed by DS7's passions and his behavior.
    My DH and I are finding that it's not only DS's intellect that is different- he is just different. Obsessive interests, highly emotional, willing to question out authority or just asking complicated questions all. day. long. I finally suggested that he keep a special notebook for questions so that they didn't get lost- that way, I can use google or a science book to answer.
    Currently, he's memorizing the periodic table and has completed most of elementary school math with an average of 45 minutes *per week* of enrichment from me.
    In the day to day of our lives, I take DS as he is- I just notice the differences when he becomes "passionately" interested in a topic. At seven, I was running through nature and my husband was playing with star wars action figures- not memorizing the periodic table, or obsessing about weather/science, or reading non fiction for fun.
    DS doesn't even fall into the category of PG- I could not imagine. Parents talk about their kids' giftedness and their own- my case is different. Neither my husband or I were identified as gifted-we've done well in life, but speaking only for myself, if I'm gifted it's on the moderate end. Anyway, just needed to get it out. Cheers.

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    #197161 - 07/25/14 05:49 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    OrlFamily Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/16/14
    Posts: 39
    My kids are so much smarter than me! I'm probably gifted somewhat (as in a spike in one area). I forget things, it takes me time to figure things out - our DS gets so frustrated when I try to help him with his math (he usually ends up helping me). I suspect our DD is as gifted as he is (hasn't been tested yet) and I do wonder where they got their abilities!

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    #197163 - 07/25/14 06:04 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    cammom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/11/13
    Posts: 299
    My DS will solve a math problem quickly in his head and for awhile I assumed that it "couldn't" be correct because he did it "too" fast. We have had this embarrassing exchange a few times:

    Me: that's incorrect
    Him: it's right
    Me: no it's not (thinking hard)
    Me: yes it is
    Me: sorry
    Him: it's okay

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    #197172 - 07/25/14 07:49 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    If my wife and my mom were on this forum, they'd both be posting in this thread, and as I've learned more about the nature of giftedness, I've spotted huge red flags in both of them that strongly suggest they significantly underrate their own abilities. It's too late to talk to my mom about it, but DW is finally starting to come around to the idea that she's not as dumb as she thinks she is.

    Maybe y'all are smarter than you realize, too.

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    #197174 - 07/25/14 08:15 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: Dude]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    If my wife and my mom were on this forum, they'd both be posting in this thread, and as I've learned more about the nature of giftedness, I've spotted huge red flags in both of them that strongly suggest they significantly underrate their own abilities. It's too late to talk to my mom about it, but DW is finally starting to come around to the idea that she's not as dumb as she thinks she is.

    Maybe y'all are smarter than you realize, too.


    Unless you are my father.

    Then you aren't as smart as you think you are.

    I've spotted significant red flags that he significantly overrates his own abilities.

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    #197178 - 07/25/14 09:30 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: cammom
    My DS will solve a math problem quickly in his head and for awhile I assumed that it "couldn't" be correct because he did it "too" fast. We have had this embarrassing exchange a few times:

    Me: that's incorrect
    Him: it's right
    Me: no it's not (thinking hard)
    Me: yes it is
    Me: sorry
    Him: it's okay



    I can point to several times when my DH has had this conversation with DD-- including some fairly HEATED exchanges when she was 9-10yo. He was making a sign error or something in HIS head, and SHE wasn't-- and he assumed (with his PhD) that he had to be right, and she had to be wrong, since she was showing so little of her work.
    blush

    So it's not just "not gifted" parents who run into this set of issues. My DH is HG, and in the high end of the range. I'm EG, and just that difference is enough that I "get" things about my DD's learning and thought process that elude him, or that he thinks of as alien/impossible.

    I can see that she's doing it-- I'm into a close enough range that I know she's really doing what it appears that she's doing, I mean-- but I can't really do it the way SHE does it.

    She's clearly beyond me. It's not just that she's beyond me at her age. She's just... beyond me.

    My mother was NT, and my Dad was PG. (Yeah, that's another story...)

    My mother thought that I was a space alien from the time I was born, basically. She could NOT relate to me. At all. My dad, who was otherwise not that fond of children, found me a delight, and he and I related to one another very well. His areas of expertise were not like mine, however-- he was much more strongly verbal than me, and I have STEM ability that he lacked.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #197179 - 07/25/14 09:38 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: HowlerKarma]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I can see that she's doing it-- I'm into a close enough range that I know she's really doing what it appears that she's doing, I mean-- but I can't really do it the way SHE does it.

    She's clearly beyond me. It's not just that she's beyond me at her age. She's just... beyond me.


    I use the electron atomic orbital analogy.

    She has more electrons in that particular orbital than you do.

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    #197224 - 07/25/14 08:19 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    Cookie Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/28/14
    Posts: 599
    Let's see...PG engineer dad....NT mom....two PG brothers. I assume I am mildly gifted....two gifted boys. One PG (school's testing, follow up testing I did showed a bit lower log), the other one tested poorly on the WISC...I say HG/2e.

    Both of them blow me away sometimes, but I manage to keep up.

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    #197275 - 07/27/14 06:47 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    Melessa Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/11/12
    Posts: 393
    Dh is definitely hg+ with strength in stem area. Ds 3 is very much what I imagine dh was like at that age. However, ds3 has an uncanny sense of humor unlike anyone in our families.

    Ds7 has strong verbal qualities with a variety of interests. Both dh and I think ds7 is beyond us.

    As for me, I'd say I'm mg who has this little trick of memorization.

    It's a wild and crazy household with a lot of intensity, but it's fun!

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    #197283 - 07/27/14 11:51 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    howdy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/13
    Posts: 279
    Every time I see this question asked around the different forums and facebook pages, I see the same responses. That you, as the parent of a PG child, must also be gifted too. Which is often true, according to research that I have read.

    However, I think that it is also possible that the parent is not gifted, and that is okay too. I think you still can be an excellent parent when that is true.

    Just wanted to put that statement out there, too.

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    #197284 - 07/27/14 12:14 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    cammom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/11/13
    Posts: 299
    Thanks for all of the responses- good to know that I'm not alone. I've read that parental IQ is related to child IQ (inherited), but it's not necessarily a direct relationship. Gifted parents can have NT kids and apparently, NT parents can have gifted kids.
    My DH and I are both intelligent- maybe more than we know (we both had kind of rough childhoods). Our son is just "different' in ways that we've had some trouble understanding- beyond intense in drive, emotional responses, and intellectual interests. Neither my DH or I ever fit this category, although we probably slipped in and out of it. My father maybe, but he likely has some ADHD/learning issues that were never addressed.
    As I said, most of the time I take DS as he is and have adjusted to his intensity and constant questioning/thinking. It's when he develops passions that are so different from my own that I begin to wonder if I can keep up:)

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    #197350 - 07/28/14 04:59 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    KelseyNewHamp Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 07/28/14
    Posts: 3
    I have a boy who is profoundly gifted specifically in math. I'm not gifted nor is their father. On both sides of the family, there isn't anyone who has had the abilities our son has in math. I'll be honest, it's been difficult and we have relied heavily on 1 specific tutor who works with our son evenings and weekends and then local chess club where there is a visiting GM who advises on this. But yeah, very difficult to bring up a gifted child in the current Common Core system.

    Kelsey

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    #198037 - 08/06/14 05:21 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    mithawk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/25/11
    Posts: 270
    My best friend in college was clearly PG. He was one of the 4/6000 that ended up with a 4.0 in college, while simultaneously learning multiple languages, being president of two clubs, and having lots of fun at parties...

    His parents and this brother were all NT though. While my friend was contemplating particle physics, his brother had a job stacking shelves in a warehouse.

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    #198053 - 08/07/14 07:28 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    blackcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    If there is a correlation between parent IQ and child IQ, it's not necessarily because the child inherited it. High IQ parents are going to provide a different environment for their child than parents that are more average. For instance, more books, more advanced language and discussions, more strategy games, more enrichment activities--because those are things they find important or interesting. IQ in children seems to be highly variable depending on the environment they are in. That being said, there seems to be a genetic component as well but the research out there doesn't show it to be the only thing when it comes to looking at the IQs of children. My two are completely genetically unrelated and their IQ profiles are strikingly similar. They both have PRI scores that are in the 140's and lower verbal scores. They both have processing speed scores that are signficantly lower. What are the odds that would occur if you randomly took 2 kids off the street and compared their scores? The similarities in their scores probably have a lot to do with being in the same environment. I gave birth to both of them, so there could also be a prenatal effect.
    The scores of older kids/adults seem to align more closely with what you'd expect to see in terms of genetics. A lot of people seem to forget that scores can change over time when kids are tested.

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    #198061 - 08/07/14 09:46 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: blackcat]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: blackcat
    If there is a correlation between parent IQ and child IQ, it's not necessarily because the child inherited it. High IQ parents are going to provide a different environment for their child than parents that are more average. For instance, more books, more advanced language and discussions, more strategy games, more enrichment activities--because those are things they find important or interesting. IQ in children seems to be highly variable depending on the environment they are in. That being said, there seems to be a genetic component as well but the research out there doesn't show it to be the only thing when it comes to looking at the IQs of children. My two are completely genetically unrelated and their IQ profiles are strikingly similar. They both have PRI scores that are in the 140's and lower verbal scores. They both have processing speed scores that are signficantly lower. What are the odds that would occur if you randomly took 2 kids off the street and compared their scores? The similarities in their scores probably have a lot to do with being in the same environment. I gave birth to both of them, so there could also be a prenatal effect.
    The scores of older kids/adults seem to align more closely with what you'd expect to see in terms of genetics. A lot of people seem to forget that scores can change over time when kids are tested.


    According to this WSJ article, genetics plays the major role in IQ when SES is at a level necessary to achieve self-actualization. Below that SES threshold, environment becomes the major determinant.

    Originally Posted By: article
    Monozygotic twins raised apart are more similar in IQ (74%) than dizygotic (fraternal) twins raised together (60%) and much more than parent-children pairs (42%); half-siblings (31%); adoptive siblings (29%-34%); virtual twins, or similarly aged but unrelated children raised together (28%); adoptive parent-child pairs (19%) and cousins (15%). Nothing but genes can explain this hierarchy.

    But as Drs. Bouchard and Segal have been at pains to point out from the start, this high heritability of intelligence mainly applies to nonpoor families. Raise a child hungry or diseased and environment does indeed affect IQ. Eric Turkheimer and others at the University of Virginia have shown that in the most disadvantaged families, heritability of IQ falls and the influence attributed to the shared family environment rises to 60%.

    In other words, hygienic, well-fed life enables people to maximize their genetic potential so that the only variation left is innate. Intelligence becomes significantly more heritable when environmental hurdles to a child's development have been dismantled.

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    #198065 - 08/07/14 09:55 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    That's really interesting, Dude. It certainly confirms what I've long suspected must be true.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #198081 - 08/07/14 11:18 AM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: Dude]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3296
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Dude

    Originally Posted By: article
    In other words, hygienic, well-fed life enables people to maximize their genetic potential so that the only variation left is innate. Intelligence becomes significantly more heritable when environmental hurdles to a child's development have been dismantled.


    This effect has been shown conclusively for physical growth, both at the level of the individual and at the level of populations. You know how people tend to be taller than their parents? Interestingly, it's also been shown that each generation can only gain so much height --- gains are physiologically constrained at the population level.

    People have examined linear growth in populations dating back to the early 19th century by using data from conscripts. They find that average height increases with each generation in societies that are relatively wealthy and healthy. Wars and famines cause drops that are then "caught up" when the problems end.

    I suspect that eventually, this same general pattern will be found for cognitive ability. It's why I been known to rave occasionally about what I believe is a very important need to provide nutritious food and good healthcare to people of low SES.

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    #198092 - 08/07/14 12:27 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    aquinas Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 2513
    Originally Posted By: Val
    I suspect that eventually, this same general pattern will be found for cognitive ability. It's why I been known to rave occasionally about what I believe is a very important need to provide nutritious food and good healthcare to people of low SES.


    Right on! Cognitive subsistence level nourishment and support are a painful hurdle that must be overcome for all SES.
    _________________________
    What is to give light must endure burning.

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    #198096 - 08/07/14 12:44 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    Tigerle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/14
    Posts: 602
    Loc: Europe
    Because of a variety of health issues my children have I have gotten seriously into nutrition for the last 18 months, the somewhat obsessive way (y'all know what I'm talking about I'm sure). I am beginning to get very worried about the public health effects the over consumption of sugar, grains and processed meats and fats including the flavourings and colourings necessary to make these foodstuffs palatable is having. Not just obesity and diabetes and the usual suspects, but I am sure it is also depressing iq and attention levels, destabilizing mood etc. I think I've read it might be a reason for the slowing down/reversal of the Flynn effect in the industrialised countries.
    To pick up the thread topic: none of the adults in our family has ever been tested, and DS7 is the very first child we have an iq score for, so take every assumption I am making with a grain of salt - and considering how floored I was by DS HG+ score! I am obviously not a good judge. But I know that while I may be verbally gifted, I am nowhere near in the math and science realm where DS is. I am not sure my husband is. But I am glad that at this point, whenever DS questions are beyond me and I haven't got a good way to find an answering me immediately, I can tell him to ask his father, and his father being a teacher, thankfully is home more often than some fathers might be. I am always very glad when DS shows interest in my strengths (he is currently on a geography binge, and that's right up my street) be cause I hear myself saying way too often "I can't tell you, you'll have to ask your papa" for my comfort or self confidence.

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    #198101 - 08/07/14 03:00 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    blackcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    I was referencing the studies that show a low heritability in infancy and early childhood and then the it rises in adolescence and adulthood. So, it appears that parent IQ does not have much weight when you look at an infant or a 5 year old. The correlation is low enough that I assume this includes many children who have nuturing environments and have their basic needs met. Maybe what people are overlooking in the research is the fact that rates of maturation/development vary so much from one child to another in early childhood. So even a child who is in a nuturing environment may appear to be "slow" (for example), and therefore their IQ may be very different from their parents but become more similar later on. This is from Wikipedia:
    "Studies have found the heritability of IQ in adult twins to be 0.7 to 0.8 and in children twins 0.45 in the Western world.[35][48][49] It may seem reasonable to expect genetic influences on traits like IQ should become less important as one gains experiences with age. However, the opposite occurs. Heritability measures in infancy are as low as 0.2, around 0.4 in middle childhood, and as high as 0.8 in adulthood.[50] One proposed explanation is that people with different genes tend to reinforce the effects of those genes, for example by seeking out different environments.[35] Debate is ongoing about whether these heritability estimates are too high, owing to inadequate consideration of various factors—such as the environment being relatively more important in families with low socioeconomic status, or the effect of the maternal (fetal) environment."

    At any rate, I was just pointing out that if a child is similar to a parent, or unexpectedly dissimilar, it is not necessarily just genes that determine IQ, especially when you are looking at children. There are many factors that go into it.

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    #198102 - 08/07/14 03:43 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: blackcat]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3296
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: blackcat
    I was referencing the studies that show a low heritability in infancy and early childhood and then the it rises in adolescence and adulthood.


    I'm not sure what you mean here; either a trait is inherited or not?

    As for general heritability of IQ in a good SES environment, I have trouble believing that there's little correlation. We have way too many HG+ parents here with HG+ kids for me to accept that --- plus, I've been to gatherings of PG types with PG kids.

    In the case of my 2 PG kids at least, the giftedness was evident in both of them before we left the hospital. People (including the pediatrician) commented on how alert they were during their first couple of months.

    ETA: I'm not saying that IQ disparities between parents and kids don't exist, just that I can't accept that heritability is low or not there because of standard of living.


    Edited by Val (08/07/14 03:47 PM)

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    #198103 - 08/07/14 04:02 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: cammom]
    blackcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    If you look at the correlation between the IQ between parents and children (young children in particular), there is not much of a relationship. It's very weak. So there are plenty of low IQ parents with high IQ kids and vice versa. The relationship is stronger if you compare teenagers to their parents. It seems counter-intuitive, but it is what it is. I'm suggesting that the rate of development for young kids varies so much, that could explain some of the difference, as well as differences in environment. The child who is given puzzles to play with is going to do better with block design on the WISC. So even if a trait inherited, it doesn't necessarily show up in early childhood. There is also research showing that if an IQ test is given to a preschooler, there is only a weak correlation with their score even a few years later. So the scores can change dramatically over time even in the same child. Personally I think it's useless to even give a young child (under 6 or so) an IQ test unless they are one extreme or the other. It may show how they are functioning at that moment, but it's not very predictive.
    Most of the kids on this forum are highly gifted with scores over 130 or 140, and you will not see as much fluctuation with scores that high, or variance between them and their parents (my hypothesis at least).

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    #198104 - 08/07/14 04:40 PM Re: Any non-gifted parents raising HG+ child? [Re: Val]
    blackcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    Originally Posted By: Val

    In the case of my 2 PG kids at least, the giftedness was evident in both of them before we left the hospital. People (including the pediatrician) commented on how alert they were during their first couple of months.



    With my DS, his IQ was actually tested when he was 3 because of a concern about developmental delays. He was a slow talker and slow with some other milestones. His score was in the average range but went up dramatically at age 6, when he was tested again (after a skull fracture/traumatic brain injury). So what I am saying is that even if he has parents who are gifted (who knows but it's probably close), and he got genes that ultimately produce a high IQ, you never would have known it when he was 3. He showed some high talent in a few areas, but his overall development didn't show it. Then he went on to read before kindergarten and learn long division (and other advanced math) at age 6. So in a way, the data makes total sense to me, just given the examples I have in front of me. I was a "late bloomer" as well...things clicked for me in adolescence and I started to do very well in high school but had struggled before that with certain subjects.

    I've seen a lot of posts on this forum where the assumption seems to be that if parents have a high IQ, then their kids must have a high IQ, and it's genetically inherited. Or if a kid has a high IQ, it's because they inherited the magical IQ gene. I just think it's much more complicated than that, esp. when you are talking about children. I don't even know for sure if my kids are "gifted." They are right now, because we have the scores which are probably fairly accurate representations of how they were functioning when tested, but I'm not going to conclude that their scores will stay exactly the same over time because they have the smart gene. Their scores are high enough I doubt they will drop out of the gifted range, but they are still too young to say for sure what the picture is going to look like in 5 or 10 years.

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