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    #197015 - 07/23/14 03:12 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: aquinas]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2595
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: aquinas
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma

    Yes, but only if you happen to be named Tiger von Preeiminence. grin



    That's His Excellency Tiger Lord von Preeminence IV to us plebs. wink

    Pardon my French, but this whole academic prestige-hounding is about as tasteful as a nouveau-riche talking loudly at a party of old money about his finances. If you have to flaunt it, it means too much to you and is too novel to be "really" you. Groucho Marx and all that.

    As a practical matter, an advantage of attending a prestigious school is that you don't need to flaunt your intelligence (or whatever it is that prestigious schools are supposed to signify). Every college graduate puts the school he attended on his resume. So you get to "flaunt" without boasting. If it were commonplace for employers to explicitly ask about SAT/ACT and other test scores, and for people to put those numbers on their resumes, the importance of attending a "name" school (which may be exaggerated in any case) would fall. Listing SAT scores on resumes and employers requesting them does happen, but it's not the norm. The College Board sends score reports only to colleges, not to employers. If it were more widely understood that the SAT is largely an IQ test and that IQ predicts job performance better than most other variables, the perceived need to attend an elite school (or to attend college at all, for that matter) would dwindle.

    Schools maintain records of who attended and graduated from them. I think they should maintain records of who they admitted, regardless of whether they attended. People could use "got into X" as a credential. I doubt my suggestion will be taken up.

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    #197018 - 07/23/14 03:31 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    notnafnaf Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/14
    Posts: 199
    I don't know that IQ predicts performance as well... where are studies that show that? I have known some very, very smart folks who did not do as well due to their inability to deal with their co-workers - despite their college background. There are intangibles that are just as important (not what college you go to - but sometimes I wonder to some extent how employers also look at the activities you do when hiring college grads... I recall a few recruiters very interested in the sport I participated in, and I have wondered at times whether that was a factor in offers I received for my first job out of college... there was definitely some pull based on the school attended, and sometimes I wonder, to the activities along with your GPA/course work).

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    #197035 - 07/23/14 07:13 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Val]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Val
    I started reading that article earlier today and will finish at lunchtime. This paragraph struck me:

    Quote:
    No one but me knows he fakes being well-read by thumbing through the first and last chapters of any book he hears about and obsessively devouring reviews in lieu of the real thing. He does this not because he’s incurious, but because there’s a bigger social reward for being able to talk about books than for actually reading them.


    I think that it needs to be pointed out that he is essentially using the old bond trader's cheat sheet approach to social occasions.

    So, it's certainly a valid technique that has a proven track record.

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    #197039 - 07/23/14 07:42 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: notnafnaf]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2595
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: notnafnaf
    I don't know that IQ predicts performance as well... where are studies that show that?

    Frank Schmidt and John Hunter are prominent researchers in this area, and their 2004 paper General Mental Ability in the World of Work: Occupational Attainment and Job Performance cites many earlier papers.

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    #197040 - 07/23/14 08:23 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    I will have my children read The Bell Curve some day and explain to them that so-called "privileged" children outperform the "underprivileged" academically primarily because of of IQ differentials.

    Then why do "elite" colleges use extra-curriculars in their admissions process.

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    #197047 - 07/23/14 09:32 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    ...because sometimes admissions committees are packed with people who are-- well, unspeakably GAUCHE, to speak plainly. Those people can't be expected to just recognize the relative importance of the von Preeminence name and how those bearing it are to be treated. We have to help them somehow.



    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #197064 - 07/24/14 06:45 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    You can tell an applicant's class from the financial disclosures, but you can't tell class. The right kind of applicant lists canoeing/sailing, volunteering at the art museum/political campaign, and charity fund raising, for starters.

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    #197067 - 07/24/14 07:26 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Old Dad Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/30/12
    Posts: 423
    I know a Harvard Professor in STEM who told me, "Don't bother sending you sons to an ivy league school as an under graduate, generally speaking, they're much better off in any number of state or small private colleges as under graduates where professors actually teach the classes. Under graduates just aren't looked upon with much importance at an ivy league school. When they get to the graduate level courses, that's different."

    His opinion coming from a man who came from a third world country and attended a state college, then was hired to Harvard from that background. Certainly it's only one man's opinion but note worthy.


    Edited by Old Dad (07/24/14 07:26 AM)

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    #197069 - 07/24/14 07:38 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Old Dad]
    cmguy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/30/14
    Posts: 387
    I agree. The focus can be on teaching undergrads XOR on graduate research. There are a number of pseudo-ivies though that have a strong undergraduate focus (like Rice in Houston TX or Wellesley in MA) that could be a good fit for a gifted kid. Rice has a student teacher ratio in the low single digits and a ton of research/internship opportunities b/c it is located in the Houston Medical district, near all the museums and a ton of fortunte 500 companies.

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    #197070 - 07/24/14 07:46 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Old Dad]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2595
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Old Dad
    I know a Harvard Professor in STEM who told me, "Don't bother sending you sons to an ivy league school as an under graduate, generally speaking, they're much better off in any number of state or small private colleges as under graduates where professors actually teach the classes. Under graduates just aren't looked upon with much importance at an ivy league school. When they get to the graduate level courses, that's different."

    As a physics major at Harvard, I never took a course that did not have lectures by a professor, although some of the lower-level classes also had sections with teaching assistants. It's probably true that the first priority of most professors at elite research universities is research -- that's the primary basis on which they are tenured. But the physics professors were enthusiastic and very knowledgeable about what they taught, and I think they felt that training the next generation of physicists was a serious responsibility. They would not skimp on topics covered out of apathy or the desire to make things easy for students. Many physics majors taught themselves by working individually on problem sets and then discussing them with other classmates, rather than going to professors' office hours. I think this is a reasonable approach.

    If you are a well-prepared physics major, coming in with 5's on AP Physics C and AP Calculus, you may be taking graduate courses as early as your junior year, so there is not a bright line separating undergraduate and graduate education.

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