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Hello,

My son in in 4th class in NSW. He skipped year 2 and is in a better place in his new year but is still pushing beyond his new year. For instance, he is going up to yr 5/6 classes to do maths.

We are thinking about what to do for high school.
NSW has a very strong selective school system which would mean he would be surrounded by very strong academic kids. But this system can also be high stress which i am not sure would suit him. At least some of them have a culture of very high focus on marks (rather than learning) and most kids are tutored and don't socialise because they are busy studying.

Before this selective school system kicks in in high school NSW has another layer in year 5/6. The kids can sit an exam in yr 4 and then get offered a place in an opportunity class. Which from what i have heard has similar positives and negatives to the selective school system. He needs to apply for this test soon if he is going to do it. I am not sure whether we should go down this road. Sadly there aren't opportunity classes at his school so he would need to move schools. If he was going to try for the selective school then attending an opportunity class beforehand would give him a higher chance of having friends that would carry through to high school with him as many kids move from one system to the other. The other layer on this is that his very good primary school get a lots smaller in yr 5/6 as many many students go to private schools in yr 5. So while now he has some kids that are somewhat challenging for him i know that at least some of them are leaving at the end of this year. Also at the moment he can go up classes for more challenge but when he is in the older class this won't be a possibility.

He doesn't like the idea of it as he would like to stay with his friends. This is important, as we have already disrupted his friends (ultimately for the better), when he did the year skip. I guess i wonder if he doesn't know what he isn't liking if you know what i mean.

So after all this information, i guess i am wondering whether any on this board have experience from NSW or general thoughts on this situation.
Thanks for your thoughts.

HHBELLA

Hi hhbella. I have quite a lot I could say with regard to the questions you have raised so I am sorry if this is a long post.

We had a similar experience to you. Our DD skipped a grade and then went to an OC for grade 5. We only have experience of that one OC and how well they run is very dependent on the school and the teacher, just like any class. In fact the two OC teachers at DD's school ran very different types of OC so it is well worth meeting the potential teacher and gauging the fit for your child as they will be with that teacher and the students for two years.

Our DD was very miserable in fourth grade but was reluctant to move schools, which she has had to do a lot. We made an agreement with her school that she could return if the OC did not work out well. After the first day at the OC she was a different child, happy and enthusiastic for school again. There were immediate benefits to the OC in that it did move faster and was at a higher level, there were other kids she could relate to and the teacher was understanding. The homework workload increased significantly, of which I was not a fan. Some of the homework was useful and developed academic writing and science skills and some was just hard work.

Unfortunately we had to leave the OC after fifth grade as we changed towns. That was a big disaster. Our DD missed her OC desperately and it was obvious that the level of challenge she needed could not be met in a normal grade 6 class. She was working on algebra at year 9 and 10 level. Her sixth grade teacher allowed her to do that but couldn't support her to do that. We had considered a grade skip to high school but with the move and other issues it became too hard. We regretted that mightily. As you point out, if it is a stand alone primary there is no where to go when they are beyond grade 5 and 6 material unless the school has an arrangement with a local high school.

Like you, we were concerned about the selective school system which struck us as catering more to high achieving students not necessarily highly gifted students. Again it depends a lot on the actual school. We didn't want more work for our DD just the right work. We opted not to go down that path and for us it was definitely the right decision from a "stress" and workload perspective. The advantage of a selective school is they are perhaps well attuned at getting good HSC results and the school we are in does not achieve well at HSC level. Also, there are gifted kids in selective schools as there are no schools really catering to gifted specifically, so friendships may be more easily formed as we found with the OC.

What we needed in a high school was flexibility and awareness. We have fought hard to get that but schools are not set up to deal with students who learn very quickly. Even acceleration becomes tricky as each new grade level only seems to help briefly if it is still moving at a normal pace.

We are now at a point where we have DD doing classes across three different years which is a time tabling nightmare and isn't working well. We are in the process at looking at all options. Homeschooling is hard but not impossible. We didn't do that for grade 6 as we were in a new town and school seemed to be one way for DD to meet new people, although even that didn't work the way we hoped.

On a practical level:
1. There is nothing to be lost doing the test. Put no pressure on it, just do it as an experience and for information. The current school also needs to supply English and math marks as I remember. They are added in with the test score to determine placement. There is no one score to get into an OC. Different schools have different qualifying criteria depending on popularity.

2. Contact the OC school(s) you are considering and meet the teacher and get an idea of the vibe and expectation. What are the OC teachers interests and ideas.

3. Consider whether another grade skip to high school might work better, looking at what is available to you.

Hi NDW,
Thank you for your response- it is great to hear from someone further through the process.
It was interesting to hear your daughters experience of the OC class and how much she enjoyed it. It sounds unfortunate that she had to leave- these things happen though.

Do you think that the way they taught was very different in the OC class?

My husband and i are also trying to work out what the experiences of students in selective schools are like. It sounds as though you were also concerned about this.

I think at this point we will get him to do the test. He is happy to do it as long as he has our promise that we won't force/encourage him to take it if he doesn't want to. This if fine by us. Even if he doesn't take it having the score may give us some information about how he would compare to other students for selective school entry.
As you suggest i will contact our closest OC and try and have a chat with the teacher.

Thanks Again,
HH

Hi HH,

I think your DS will enjoy the test as long as he feels there is no pressure. That is exactly what we did with DD. She kept saying she didn't know if she wanted to change schools and was very ambivalent but once she changed it became clear how truly miserable she had been in grade four.

Was the teaching different? It was but as I said, it was very much down to the individual teacher. DD had a teacher who was able to take them to a higher level in most subjects and then supplemented with online learning, eg in maths using maths on line for teaching algebra. The other OC teacher was more academically driven from what I understand, where DDs teacher encouraged art, musical pursuits and sport to a greater degree.

Homework was a big difference with much greater workload and much higher standard. There were essays to write, dioramas to build, science experiments to construct and write up with excel graphs. DD even wrote a book one term. I felt the pressure at times but in reality the teacher was stretching the kids and it isn't like they would "fail" if they struggled. Most of the OC kids found high school and homework a breeze after the OC preparation.

Regarding selective schools, I just don't think our DD would have been happy with the workload. It depends on the balance between the amount of work versus the level of work and the pacing. However, we didn't investigate it too deeply as the travel needed to attend a selective school was prohibitive. DD wouldn't have had time or the energy to attend other external activities she enjoys.

Let me know how you get on with investigating the OC and feel free to ask any specific questions if I can help

Hi Hhbella,
Sorry to come into the conversation late, but thought I would share my experience of being a student at a NSW selective high school.
Personally, it was an enormously positive experience. Selective high schools were quite new and experimental when I was accepted in the early 90's (some time ago now!) Yes, there were expectations, some degree of competitiveness and a workload attached, but they were so worthwhile. In terms of expectation and competition, is was an opt-in situation...there was a culture of doing your own best, rather than being pushed by an external force (teachers, parents). The competition I experienced was more of a friendly rivalry, rather than a cut-throat rush to the top.

For me however, by far the best aspect was the social one. The vast majority of classmates were similar to myself in some ways (whether you want to use the label of gifted, geeky, nerdy, whatever) and so we had a really strong community where it was ok to be yourself. There was no pretending to be something you weren't, or trying to hide your talents, to try to fit in. High school can be a scarring experience for those that may seem a bit 'different' (my sister experienced this in the local high school), and many sadly spend their early 20's recovering from this. But, when you build a community of people who don't undermine one another (as can be the case in local high schools), magic can happen. High school is where many lifelong connections are made- for me, I met my husband there, and have a circle of lifelong friends with lots of interesting careers (including scientists like my hubby and self, an archaeologist, human rights academic, pilot, social worker, engineer, business leader).

Another thing to keep in mind- entry into a selective high school isn't a one-way ticket. There were many who decided after a year or so that it wasn't for them and transitioned back to local or private schools (this was my plan B when I started out too).

Of course, I am sure lots has changed in selective schools since the 90's. However I think that same social aspect that I found invaluable would still apply.

Cheers,
kathaust.

Hi Hhbella. Just noticed that the OC test was on Wednesday. Did your DS decide to sit? If so I hope he enjoyed the experience and was not too stressed. The results take a long time. We had actually forgotten about them when the letter arrived which was a good thing. Whether he sat the test or not, good luck with your planning.

Hi ndw,
Thank you for thinking of my son. Yes he sat the test yesterday. I think he enjoyed it- he does love the puzzles etc although he said that he didn't finish one of the papers. I am not sure whether this means it was too hard for him.

The public school he attends had the sports carnival on the same day???????? So that was a little off putting. He had to run by himself when he arrived and be time trialled. There some other kids doing it but in the year older group. Seems very odd that they hadn't realised it was on.


He had practised a few at home and he said that the form of some of the questions was the same. I followed the advice of posters up thread and prepare him but really tried to remove any pressure and just encourage him to try his best.

He is totally against moving schools to go the OC as he doesn't want to leave his friends. Given he moved years and has worked hard to create a new friendship group i can understand where he is coming from. I wish that we had sent him to a public school with an OC (with the benefit of hind sight) but i hope the results, when they come, will at least give us a little guidance about where he might sit in his new cohort. It might help us know whether selective high school is a possibility. Also i think that it was good for him to try out a formal exam situation with unknown people in charge and strict rules so that when he does the next one that is much more familiar to him.

He does get anxious- for some reason he was anxious about walking past the high school students at the school where it was held?? Luckily one of his best friends decided to do it too so he had a mate to hang out with before hand.

It was interesting to see that the other parents were very stressed and anxious about it- not sleeping etc.

So we will see what the results are like when they come- apparently you can ask for more details than just the mark.
Cheers,
hhbella

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Dear kathuast,
Thank you for your thoughts- i have just come back to this thread and seen them.
I think the social thing is huge- my son is generally very good socially in that he can build friendship quite well and managed to do it after his grade skip. But he is already (arghhhhhh) concerned with fitting in and not being daggy/nerd. He uses the word nerd as an insult- his father and i could have taken offence as we fit pretty neatly into that description. I wonder whether for him a major advantage of the social situation at the selective school could be that working hard and enjoying school would be the dominant culture of his year. I think some of his concern regarding fitting in is due to some anxiety which we are trying to help him work on.

Thanks again for your thoughts
HHBELLA.

Hi Hhbella,

Well done to your son for having a go.

Don't worry too much about the results. If he does well and gets in then you have choices. If not, don't let that put you off doing the Selective school exam. It's two years down the track and kids change so much in that time.

I think the social side of being with other like minded kids is very important as has been discussed. My DD did a Uni workshop in the holidays and it the element that was possibly the most exciting to her was that there were kids who talked about things she liked to talk about! Things like the edge of the universe and whether we all exist in the imagination of another being etc.

I am still not sure we have many schools that allow our kids to be with others like them, encourage a culture of academic growth without focussing overly on summative assessment and which also support individual asynchrony. Perhaps it is a big ask. Despite lip service to visible learning and growth mind sets, there is still a lot of teaching to meet outcomes and raise test performance.

I am feeling thoughtful about these issues as we move into the HSC zone and wonder if it is the best way forward for our child. Particularly when over the holidays she is more excited about learning things than during term time when it all becomes quite a drudge. It is lovely to see the spark and painful to watch it dim when school returns. We are looking at all options. To that end, be aware there are pathways to higher education that do not require a HSC. Just file that away for future thought.

Will be thinking of you when the results come out.