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    #19196 - 07/07/08 11:45 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Kriston]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Kriston

    Certainly it is possible to neglect one's kids out of selfishness. From what you've told us elsewhere, it sounds like you were the victim of neglect, and that's certainly not okay. But this statement makes it sound like the only way for women *NOT* to neglect their kids is to give up all "personal interests and careers." (Men seem exempt.)

    I'm hoping that's not how you meant it, but the sound of it does get my feminist hackles up!



    Balancing childrens' and one's own needs is a topic in itself.

    Ironically, from a Feminist perspective, my DM's ( and MGM) bad judgements had nothing to do with being independent or being smart or being a woman or her ideals, but with who she was. In the end she dealt with problems at home by avoiding them and focusing on other things where she had more control and could measure the results. It was not a choice at all. I sometimes think their success in some areas was related to avoiding it in others.

    This is a fault and a trap that is very human. Neglect has many causes. Burying oneself in work is just one.

    Men are mostly exempt from the innate emotional sensitivity to there being a conflict. I know that it does not bother me that I have a career and a son. I just give him 100% attention when I am home. My DW, OTOH, feels guilty that she is not there all the time. (Maybe I am just avoiding worrying about it!!)










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    #19200 - 07/07/08 12:02 PM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Grinity]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Grinity
    Hi Austin,
    Welcome.
    Thanks for posting over the last few days - I think it helps us Moms who think we 'must' be crazy to fight so hard over 'nothing' remember that this isn't 'nothing.'


    You are welcome. So many memories are flooding back now that I have my son.

    Though I do not dwell on it, there were times that I wondered what I would have been had things been different. I see that its a tradeoff.

    Although my mom neglected me, she did recognize and nuture my mind. My DF's side of the family did not. The latter was MUCH worse than the former. For me, neglect with some guidance, was less stifling and more powerful than being loved, but controlled.

    That book, Emergence, by David Palmer, touched on this briefly. The adopted parents would (deliberately) hide books from the protagonist. She had to struggle to seek things out. This feedback made the difference.








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    #19201 - 07/07/08 12:04 PM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Austin]
    incogneato Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/25/07
    Posts: 2231
    Loc: up in my head.......
    Poor DW, I hope she gives herself a break!!!

    I wonder if the difference in perspective concerning working and parenting is based on temperment/personality or gender?

    I wonder if it's possible to ever know for sure.

    One things for sure, guilt doesn't seem to be a very productive emotion, especially when it's unduly aggrandized!

    wink

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    #19227 - 07/07/08 01:52 PM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Dazed&Confuzed]
    Texas Summer Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/01/06
    Posts: 216
    Loc: Texas
    Originally Posted By: Dazed&Confuzed
    For me, I love being involved in my kids education.... I'm enjoying passing on my passion for science to my kids and learning so many new things!


    I have also enjoyed being involved in my children's education and learning with them. There are many topics and subjects they want to explore, which I never had the opportunity to learn. It brings me joy to give them opportunities I did not have. I learned long ago that I love to learn and I am glad that my children have the same passion.

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    #19279 - 07/08/08 03:32 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Austin]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    Originally Posted By: Austin

    Balancing childrens' and one's own needs is a topic in itself.


    That's for sure!

    Quote:
    Ironically, from a Feminist perspective, my DM's ( and MGM) bad judgements had nothing to do with being independent or being smart or being a woman or her ideals, but with who she was. In the end she dealt with problems at home by avoiding them and focusing on other things where she had more control and could measure the results. It was not a choice at all. I sometimes think their success in some areas was related to avoiding it in others.


    We'll never know! Perhaps in an ideal world, a person like your mom would have found a nurturing spouse who could have supported her to be out in the world without saddling her with the responsibility of being 'in charge' of meeting the need of your and DS, and in doing so, allowed her to have great success outside the home and share a bit more of herself with you. Maybe she was responding in part to her own experience as a child who liked freedom and respect better than control. Remember that for some gifted people, if they can't do it perfectly, then they find life very very stressful, compared to ND folks who have more slack for the normal highs and lows of life.

    Quote:
    Men are mostly exempt from the innate emotional sensitivity to there being a conflict. I know that it does not bother me that I have a career and a son. I just give him 100% attention when I am home. My DW, OTOH, feels guilty that she is not there all the time. (Maybe I am just avoiding worrying about it!!)


    Not sure if this is helpful to say, but you know, when I spend 30 minutes mowing the lawn, I feel like a hero - totally enjoying the outside, and I do that about once a summer when the mood hits. My DH, OTOH, goes out weekly with grim determination. I tell him all the time that he should just let the grass go this week if he doesn't feel like it, because it's not really that long. (I don't really tell him all the time, but he just has to look at my face to know that that's what I'm thinking.) I don't know how we fell into the 'he's in charge of the outside of the house, and I'm in charge of the inside of the house' bit, but we have. My hunch is that women only feel guilty when they actually think that something isn't ideal. So my advice isn't to encourage her to feel less guilty, but to just check, and ask her, in an ideal world, what does she think would be best for your son? In otherwords, if your wife has a greater sensitivity to things emotional, use her as a 'canary in a coal mine,' yes? I read in a book somewhere that whenever a couple had a difference in perceptions they should start the conversation with "Yippee - we have a difference" because it allows them to be greater than the sum of the parts.

    BTW - My son was in daycare part time from 7 weeks of age. I didn't feel guilty, but I did feel mornful of missing those hours of his life. I could almost feel the chemicals in my body missing him. 11 years later we are close when we are together, but I feel quite comfortable giving him lots of independence. What I didn't know then, and I do now, is that HG kids can feel quite uncomfortable with agemates even at as young as a year old. I hope that wherever you son is during the day, he is in a multiage group with lots of older kids to interact with.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity









    [/quote]
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #19500 - 07/10/08 09:37 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Grinity]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Grinity
    My hunch is that women only feel guilty when they actually think that something isn't ideal. So my advice isn't to encourage her to feel less guilty, but to just check, and ask her, in an ideal world, what does she think would be best for your son? In otherwords, if your wife has a greater sensitivity to things emotional, use her as a 'canary in a coal mine,'


    Very good words. Soemthing for me to think about!!

    Our search for a baby-sitter began when DW was 3 mos pregnant. ( Imagine that!)

    DS seemed fine there, but it turned into a fever swamp and he got sick a lot and then we got sick a lot. DW also started getting the heebie-jeebies about the next room for jr soo.. (Not Ideal thing!)

    We finally found an in-house babysitter ( I hate using nanny because it sounds elitist ) whom DW and DS loves.

    Plan is to start an afternoon enrichment program at a local day care when jr is 12 mos old. DS definately resonates with older kids - smiling back and forth when he meets them at outings - and watching them intently whenever he sees them. Infants bore him to no end and he ignores them.









    Edited by Austin (07/10/08 09:37 AM)

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    #19507 - 07/10/08 09:55 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Grinity]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1575
    This has turned into a more strident debate than the original nature/nurture.

    My mother was a physician, though worked very little when we were small. But the message was always: you will be a doctor or a dentist, in the position of power. Thinking that I would head off to Wall Street wasn't on the radar of engineering/medical parents.

    I always thought I would work and have a nanny, because how much care did an infant need? But circumstances were that we actually did a temp retirement (we were older and wanted a break and travel) and so I wasn't working. And my issues witha an infant that snacked and I had to pump at night to supplement made me so tired that I couldn't remember what day it was.

    But it made me very aware of nanny care -- and I saw some good ones -- and involved mothers around me. I am not saying quantity, quality but now women have choices to be creative about their work, especially if gifted.

    I have a friend who plays an instrument with the Met Opera and works from 8 pm. Now that her son is a teenager and she is not around, parenting is very hard and she is torn about having to work (single parent) and be there for her son as he deals with the teen years. Who would think about that when choosing a career that you would have to worry about your ability to be involved in the teen years?

    What I see, is that many women, because we have gotten spoiled by being able to go to work and enjoy the fruits of money and independence before having a family is that they just don't want the tedious work of the hands-on part of a mom.

    I think much of it is boring, dirty and a pain. And I would rather be getting "strokes" for being brilliant on some deal. But the pay off of those moments of seeing the effect of your "work" and feeling like an artist, that this child is flowering under your care, is (apologies to Mastercard) priceless.

    And, I have found, that being HG myself, I can create new opportunities for myself at any point. And recreating my career is a cool challenge in itself.

    I know some people must work for the financial need, but I also think you can make money any time and the investment in your chld is a once in a liftime opportunity.

    My mother and the feminist movement allowed me to pursue a career that would give me power and opportunity for many choices, to be a mother and have a career.

    Ren

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    #19509 - 07/10/08 10:05 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Wren]
    bianc850a Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/02/07
    Posts: 312
    Loc: California
    I went to pick up my dd from a playdate with a friend from school. They have a new baby (about7 or 8 months). She is really cute and I started talking to the mom about her daughter. The question of sleep came up and when I asked her if her baby slept thru the night already her response was a surprised "I don't know. I close my door when I go to sleep. (name of nanny) takes care of her." They have a sitter for the daytime, an overnight sitter and a weekend sitter (they have many social events to attend). The kids hardly ever see their parents.

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    #19514 - 07/10/08 10:23 AM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Wren]
    incogneato Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/25/07
    Posts: 2231
    Loc: up in my head.......
    That was the situation for my father. The nanny was really what most people would consider "mother".
    I think the general consensus in my family 2 generations later is that it's not so great.

    Quote:
    My mother was a physician, though worked very little when we were small. But the message was always: you will be a doctor or a dentist, in the position of power. Thinking that I would head off to Wall Street wasn't on the radar of engineering/medical parents.


    Ren, acquiring a postion on Wall Street IS a position of power in it's own right.

    Quote:
    think much of it is boring, dirty and a pain. And I would rather be getting "strokes" for being brilliant on some deal.


    You said it and I feel the same some days! It does get better and the attaboy just comes later in life. It gets easier as they get older, at least, that part of it.

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    #19545 - 07/10/08 01:16 PM Re: Opinion, nature or nuture [Re: Wren]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Wren

    I think much of it is boring, dirty and a pain. And I would rather be getting "strokes" for being brilliant on some deal. But the pay off of those moments of seeing the effect of your "work" and feeling like an artist, that this child is flowering under your care, is (apologies to Mastercard) priceless.


    I like the art analogy. The work itself is often very messy.

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