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    Joined: Feb 2010
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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    Originally Posted by 22B
    Originally Posted by bluemagic
    ...homework/seatwork...
    I give an F to any grading system that includes things like this. What are these schools thinking? Ridiculous!

    What 22b said!

    If mastery of the subject is demonstrated in the exams then that is all that should be needed.
    Employers care about conformity, diligence and reliability, not just smarts. If grades are more useful to them if they contain a homework component, that's an argument for basing grades on more than exam results. It's my impression that few employers look at high school transcripts -- either you graduated or did not. But some employers do look at college transcripts, and college grades depend on "homework" (problem sets and term papers), not just exam scores. My eldest son got A's on all his final exams but in only about half of his classes, because of missing or poorly completed homework. He is very smart, but employers and therefore colleges would be rational in preferring someone equally smart but who also has his act together. I turned the corner in 7th grade, which he enters this fall. I hope he will too.

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    It's just so disappointing. This kid has SO much potential.
    Sorry he is going through this. As a parent it can be painful to watch a child flounder. These articles may be of interest:
    from the Davidson Database - Tips for Parents: Executive Functioning at Home & School
    from SENG - Gifted Education, What I Wished I Knew Sooner

    The articles above are just a few of the many available which give some tips on addressing issues of asynchronous development, potential learning disabilities, and/or poor executive function while helping children develop an internal locus of control. By contrast, there are also articles (and cartoons) on helicopter parenting, available from a wide variety of sources including psychology today.

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    Thanks for the suggestions/support. He really needed very little of this last year in 8th. (Except in his easiest class science.) And this year.. I did get the memo this spring to add the extra scaffolding but a bit too late. And I didn't quite figure out why we had the missing science labs until the past week.

    Last night he told me he really has no idea how to study. Many of the kids is his classes were studying for weeks before finals but he is clueless what they do. He did very very little studying for the English & Social Studies class and Aced them with little effort (without needing all those outlines that didn't get finished correctly) and this makes it hard to teach these skills. I agree it really is a waste to study for days for no reason.

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    Originally Posted by madeinuk
    Employers care about conformity, diligence and reliability, not just smarts. If grades are more useful to them if they contain a homework component, that's an argument for basing grades on more than exam results. It's my impression that few employers look at high school transcripts -- either you graduated or did not. But some employers do look at college transcripts, and college grades depend on "homework" (problem sets and term papers), not just exam scores. My eldest son got A's on all his final exams but in only about half of his classes, because of missing or poorly completed homework. He is very smart, but employers and therefore colleges would be rational in preferring someone equally smart but who also has his act together. I turned the corner in 7th grade, which he enters this fall. I hope he will too.
    I agree. Homework can be useful and helpful. There is really no way to be good at higher level math without butt in seat doing problems. Even those who are intrinsically excellent at math need to do problems. Science LABS need to be written. These are not busy work and need to be done and the teacher SHOULD take off for not turning them in. Learning to write a well designed project is a useful skill for college classes & the working world.

    My son didn't have too much what I would call "busywork" this year. The homework load was really not that high until the last 3 weeks with the end-of-year S.S. project. Although that is another issue.. that project took my son 25-30 hours and was only worth as much weight as the final that he studies for 30 minutes. It was more this processing and/or anxiety that was getting in the way. For example in Spanish the homework that wasn't turned in was an assignment to "write 8 sentences using some rule" (like vocabulary for a chapter, or a in certain tense.) He couldn't do this without my talking him through the project. He seems to have a good grasp on the grammar and vocabulary. This is why were are looking into the processing issues. This problem was really consistent problem in all but his math class.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    My advice? INSIST that you be given complete transparency on any electronic messages, assignment websites, etc. I hold all of our DD's passwords, and I use them to check on this stuff. Regularly. It's the only way that I can casually ask after things that I know to be on the horizon, and for which I'm seeing no effort or attention at all on her part. smile


    In middle school I did this and more with the support of DS's teachers. He was happy to have me back away, but when he got in too deep he didn't want to ask for help. He is, perhaps, afraid that if he asks for help, even coming up with a topic, that the teacher will think he doesn't belong in the class. I know he's afraid of appearing irresponsible, and yet that's exactly what happens. Hhe knows he's not an "imposter", it's the teacher's perception he is worried about. I'm glad to know this is not uncommon.

    I like the term scaffolding, good metaphor.

    Old Dad, I think your list is a good conversation starter for a school year, and one to be repeated periodically during the year to learn how the syllabus and the class year mesh. The teachers do give good syllabi (?) but if we talk about it in terms of those questions, together, it will help us (student, teacher, parent) get started on the same track.

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    no idea how to study. Many of the kids is his classes were studying for weeks before finals but he is clueless what they do. He did very very little studying for the English & Social Studies class and Aced them with little effort (without needing all those outlines that didn't get finished correctly) and this makes it hard to teach these skills. I agree it really is a waste to study for days for no reason.
    This is not uncommon. A resource from the Davidson Database may be of interest - http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Resources_id_11291.aspx The Study Skills Checklist may be a great place to begin.

    You may wish to share with your son that although there many ways to study, the goal is to ensure that you have absorbed, processed, can recall and make connections with the material presented. Some may prefer rote memorization, others may enjoy reading/review, some may take notes, others may list what they believe are interesting connections or questions. Studying can be in the form of quizzing one's self. Being able to summarize/articulate overarching ideas and also recall details such as a sequence of events or technical terms often means one has completed studying and will perform their best on the test.

    When the material may seem meaningless, you may wish to help him learn to make connections. For example, interesting/relevant news stories and scientific advances may be good sources of material for connecting to a particular piece of literature, history, math, etc, which he may not otherwise relate to.

    Best wishes to your son, I believe he will soon excel.

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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    college professors are as bad if not worse with absolutely zero expectations of compliance to a grading standard or common practice.

    Not really true, at least at my university, and I think at most of the good ones. The syllabus is considered to be a contract between the student and the professor. If a professor tries to spring extra assignments not stated on the syllabus, or grade an assignment based on anything other than academic quality, the student can initiate a grievance procedure and will probably win.

    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    Worse yet, the majority of college professors have had little or no credit hours in actual educational practice.

    Guilty as charged. However, most of us are deeply passionate about getting our students to understand the material that we care so much about, and we learn from experience what helps students to "get it" and what doesn't. I will admit though that the first several semesters of students I taught did not get the most awesome teaching experience ever.

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    Originally Posted by MegMeg
    Not really true, at least at my university, and I think at most of the good ones. The syllabus is considered to be a contract between the student and the professor. If a professor tries to spring extra assignments not stated on the syllabus, or grade an assignment based on anything other than academic quality, the student can initiate a grievance procedure and will probably win.

    Notice I didn't say there wasn't a guide as to what is expected of the students by the professor, I said there was zero expectation of common practice and grading policy. In short, each professor can pretty much dictate what makes up a students grade. If they want the final to count for 75%, homework to count for 5%, and class attendance to weigh in at 20% so be it. If the next professor wants homework to account for 75%, the final 5%, and bringing a pen, paper, and text book to class each day to account for 20%, that's fine too. In short, no reasonable standardization of expectations.

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    Originally Posted by MegMeg
    Guilty as charged. However, most of us are deeply passionate about getting our students to understand the material that we care so much about, and we learn from experience what helps students to "get it" and what doesn't. I will admit though that the first several semesters of students I taught did not get the most awesome teaching experience ever.

    Thanks for responding to my concerns, however, I'm afraid being passionate about getting students to understand often doesn't equate to having the tools to be able to do so just like my wife often says about certain teachers at school, "He's a really nice man.".....which doesn't equate to them being a good teacher either.

    In public school we assume that teachers have had a reasonable amount of training in teaching methodology, differentiation, educational psychology, etc. I think expecting the same thing from those who teach at the highest levels isn't unreasonable. While I understand that after a few classes a professor will gain skills, they should START with a basic set of teaching skills and best practice of teaching only honing those already learned skills rather than learning those basic teaching skills after numerous classes / years.

    Last edited by Old Dad; 06/26/14 11:49 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    In public school we assume that teachers have had a reasonable amount of training in teaching methodology, differentiation, educational psychology, etc.
    I don't think a degree in education really prepares someone for teaching, except in meeting legal requirements. I've read that Teach for America recruits with only a few weeks of training do at least as well as new teachers with education degrees. See for example https://www.teachforamerica.org/sites/default/files/what_the_research_says_oct2013.pdf , although the source is TFA .

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