Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Please Help upset and confused

DS is in K. He has quite a high IQ and reads chapter books at home. We are planning to advocate for a grade skip at the end of the month, but last week the teacher started having a lot of behaviour issues. They have been continuing this week.

we had an independent reading comprehension test done this year, and he hit the ceiling on the test with reading accuracy at at least a year 4 level and comprehension at at least a year 2 level. His teacher says they have done their standard reading comprehension test, and while he has good accuracy, he only comprehends at mid year 1 level. I don't know what to think. Was the original test inaccurate and my son can read much more than he can comprehend, or is the measure the school is using inaccurate? Has anyone had any experience with anything like this.

They also say his handwriting is very poor, and the first grade kids are not wanting to work in his group because they cannot read what he is writing.

And he has been acting out and getting into trouble. One thing that he gets is a special pull out session on a Thursday, but that was taken away from him tomorrow because he took another kids hat a recess so he could play in the son as he had left his at home. It doesn't seem right to be that his academic extension should be taken away because he is misbehaving.

Also I asked is it possible he is bored in class, and the teacher said he is being given quite different work. And that he gets a lot of special concessions and he is not appreciating them. But he should not have to be grateful for being given an appropriate academic program should he?

I feel really disheartened. At the beginning of the year I felt okay, the school was going to be working on some things to accelerate him. but I don;t know what is actually happening, and I feel like they think I am overestimating his abilities. I worry that he is bored and will be underachieving, and that they are underestimating his abilities. But I don't know how to know for sure.

I did request they use the IOWA test in making the decision about acceleration, and his teacher said they will look into it, but that if she had to recommend now, she would not advocate a grade skip. He is too emotional and immature and he will be outcast if he moves up. I don't know. I feel like ringing up other schools and moving him, but that probably wouldn't really solve much.

Any réponse would be much appreciated as I am feeling pretty upset at the moment.

So I have been thinking some more. I think it is possible that DS has lower reading comprehension than our independent assessment. It's just strange that there was such a gap.

Maybe he is not ready for a grade skip. He is highly emotional. And he does have a lot of challenging behaviours. It is so hard to decide what is best for him since he doesn't fit any moulds.

He does go to year 1 for math. His teacher says she thinks that is a challenge for him, and that he is in the lowest group. I have done a bit of math with him at home this year, and he gets it quickly. And his placement test put him at year 2 for math reasoning. So I wonder if he is underachieving there. Maybe his attention and behaviour issues are affecting his performance.

It all seems do hard at the moment. I don't know what is best for him.

I can't tell from your post whether there have been behavior issues/attention issues all along or if they are sudden. If they have been there all along to some extent, you should maybe look into ADHD. If there is a school psych ask if there are rating scales that you and the teacher can fill out. If it is ADHD and you decided to medicate, that could potentially solve some of the attention/behavioral issues (if you go that route--I'm not pushing for medication).

It doesn't sound like a skip would be a good idea, and you should advocate for differentiated work in the classroom. Our school system requires kids be near the top of the NEXT grade before they will approve acceleration. The kid has to be practically perfect. They don't want kids to move up and then struggle. Being at the top seems kind of silly as the goal should be for the kids to be challenged, but I would say he should test at least 50th percentile for the next grade up in all areas (like writing, behavior, math, etc). Ask them what assessments have been done and how they determined his level. I don't know what independent test you had, but my experience is that the Woodcock Johnson grade level equivalents are pretty crude. For instance, for math it put DS at a 4th-5th grade level equivalent in early first grade. There was no way DS would have done well with the school's 4th or 5th grade level math curriculum at that point.

I might be wrong, but the phrases about not being grateful for all of the concessions, being given very different work ... those sound a lot like teacher fatigue. I think there is this process that happens each year. At the beginning of the year, the teacher thinks they can be the one to change and/or improve your kid. They agree to the accommodations, are patient with quirky behaviors, and try to nurture their growth. At the end of the year, they feel personally betrayed that all of their effort and belief in your kid didn't fix him. They feel like the extra effort should have been appreciated, and that the appreciation would be demonstrated by behaving better, not giving them trouble, improving in a straight line along their expected results.

I have no idea if he'd be better off with a grade skip, and either decision will create its own set of challenges. Leave him, and you'll deal with behaviors because he is bored and unhappy. Skip him, and you'll del with behaviors because he is overwhelmed. Leave him, and the teachers will express frustration that he should be doing better than the effort he is putting in. Skip him, and the teachers will resent him bringing the rest of the group down because of some areas that aren't as developed as the other students.

I'm not saying any of this to be negative. I just think if you look at the costs/benefits pragmatically, and if you don't think there is one right decision and one wrong decision, you'll be freer to make the best decision - and be ready to accept and cope with the challenges that it brings.

Hate me if you will but the above looks like bullying and schools rightly take a very dim view of it. I think that they are entirely justified in punishing your son in whatever way they feel will best get the message across that bullying is not acceptable.

In terms of the decline in behaviour over the past two weeks, a lot of kids especially very young ones get stir crazy towards the end of the year. It could also be that he is about to hit a growth spurt or reach another developmental milestone as acting up is quite common during these times.

Getting back to the skip - if the Iowa Acceleration Scale says skip, that is, he has the 'points' based on IQ and achievement etc even without the school's support points then you should push it with the school/school district, IMO.

What level is he reading at at home? This is usually a good place to begin when assessing reading level.

Bullying is systematic and continues over a period of time. If a child makes one bad choice, it's not yet bullying. It's an important distinction.

I'd say you need to have a meeting with all involved (teachers, admins) and hear them report. You can also share what you know. One hopes that a clear picture starts to emerge. If not, then pursuing further assessment is a good idea.

Reading assessments are also a tricky business. My kids do poorly on DRA and Fountas-Pinnell because they are retelling-based. If a child has trouble with sequencing ideas or discerning what the tester wants them to say, it throws off the comprehension results. You may want to look into what tests they use and check it with an alternative like Reading A-Z.

Appropriate challenges should not be presented as an award or something that can be taken away. What if it was: "Your kid was acting up; so, we stopped teaching him reading." Or "your child doesn't seem to appreciate math; so, we are going to make him sit out of math class."

Frustration can lead to a lot of out of character behaviors. Our face palm was vision; with handwriting and unexpected shifts in apparent reading comprehension; it makes me think a good developmental optometric check-up is not a bad idea.

Is your son aware of his behavior and offer any explanations?

"And he has been acting out and getting into trouble. One thing that he gets is a special pull out session on a Thursday, but that was taken away from him tomorrow because he took another kids hat a recess so he could play in the son as he had left his at home. It doesn't seem right to be that his academic extension should be taken away because he is misbehaving.

Also I asked is it possible he is bored in class, and the teacher said he is being given quite different work. And that he gets a lot of special concessions and he is not appreciating them. But he should not have to be grateful for being given an appropriate academic program should he?"

Yikes! I wonder if this was not the teacher for him this year. The teacher might have just had a gut reaction to the word, "bored," which some teachers take personally. However, I agree that your child should not have academic things taken away from them for misbehavior.

It is still an extremely bad choice that needs consequences so that it is not repeated.

I while I agree that one incident doesn't make a pattern, bad choices not nipped in the bud can become patterns of behaviour.

Also, I think if you asked the kid that had their hat stolen or forcibly borrowed I bet it felt like bullying to them because it also meant that they couldn't go out and play outside in the sunshine.

DeeDee, ditto on bullying.

And I'll just point out that, despite appearances to the contrary, and the widespread adoption of DRA (especially) and Fountas-Pinnell, there is actually no good psychometric data on the accuracy or reliability of these assessments. If I saw inconsistencies between DRA and the WJ/WIAT/KTEA, I'd go with the latter. With my usual caveat about grade equivalents, of course. I prefer end-of-course assessments for grade placement decisions, as they are more closely tied to the curriculum of that specific placement.

Caveat: What follows is only helpful if you're living in an area where FAPE (free, appropriate public education) is a right guaranteed by legislation. Here in the US, it's a term originally coined in legislation for students with learning disabilities, and some states have expanded the definition to include all students, and specifically gifted ones, through additional legislation. I highly recommend you do some research on your national/state/local laws in this area, as it can be invaluable in advocating.

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I would express sympathy with the teacher, who is expected to go above and beyond for this one student. However, on the statement of whether he's grateful, I'd be tempted to ask: Are your other students expected to be grateful when you provide them with appropriate work? Doesn't he have the same right to a free and appropriate public education as everyone else in the class?

Then I'd use that as a jumping off point about how in-class differentiation is not an appropriate solution, as it places an undue burden on the teacher, does not meet my child's needs, which causes him to act out and disrupt the class for the other students. Everybody loses. The result is predictable and preventable.

And finally, if the only thing the school is offering that approximates "appropriate" is his brief, weekly pull-out, withholding it as a punishment is every bit as much a violation of his rights as refusing to serve him lunch or tying him down to his chair. While I agree that the hat-stealing incident needs to result in immediate and meaningful consequences, the school needs to find other means which do not violate his rights.

I feel for you on the reading--

My son has taken many reading tests and literally scored anywhere between the 4th percentile (pre-literacy age 5) to reading skills 4 years above grade level >99th percentile.

I have decided that if my son is "into" a book and reading it regularly without prompting--he gets it. I'm not taking these reading tests very seriously anymore unless they consistently point to an issue.

I don't think your son made a good choice about the hat, but agree that bullying is an ongoing pattern of harassment with bad intentions. I think something else should have been taken besides academic advancement opportunities.

I know that children can tend to "act out" when bored in class, but it may be something else. Mine did not act out-- instead, he spent most of the day looking out the window. His teacher found him extremely inattentive and careless, but still pleasant and willing to follow directions. In our case, it caused her to think that he had comprehension issues, and he also got his advanced work taken because of it.

I have found that most teachers are not trained to identify the 99%+ crowd-- much deviation from the norm is likely to be attributed to behavioral or comprehension problems, not boredom.

The enrichment class may be something he views as fun and thus they felt taking it away was a punishment. Personally, I would have made him sit out the whole next recess instead of taking instructional time away. Did you let the teacher know you did not approve of their choice and offer other punishment ideas?

It's important to note you said your kid was Kindergarten age. Kids that age aren't evil masterminds. Bullying to me is more of a systematic or pattern of behavior. Not a one-off hairbrained idea to swipe a hat. Particularly if you've not had multiple discussions about him being unkind to others on purpose.

Maybe the teacher was hoping you'd be the one to show gratitude and not your son. I haven't found many kids who are grateful for school work, home work, or sheets upon sheets of mind-numbing busy work. Regardless of their ability! And particularly at that age.

To clarify my earlier post:-

The way I read the OP's post, the pullout was being taken away for a single occurrence. If that reading was correct then I do not see that as inappropriate because the misdeed has a defined and temporary consequence and everyone can move on from it.

If, however, the pullout was taken away beyond just the one time then it is both excessive and inappropriate.

While I agree with you that the hat trick needed a consequence, I think taking away the pull-out is the inappropriate choice. A better consequence would be having him stay inside for recess so he experienced what the other child endured.

Pull-outs shouldn't be considered "rewards" or "treats" and shouldn't be used to discipline a child. Having said that, yes, I do suspend reading privileges at home when DS8 misbehaves.

When I got home I realised I probably contributed to the hat issue. I realised as I got to school that we had forgotten DS hat. He had two spares floating around somewhere at school. There is also a lost and found box outside the library that is always full of jackets and hats many without names. They often get hats switched by accident at school and after school care and usually he returns the wrong hat the next day and someone returns his hat. So I told him hopefully he would find his hat or maybe he could borrow one from lost and found, which I realise I should not have said, and I wish I had remembered when I was talking to the teacher.

I don't think he snatched a hat off a kid. I think he just picked one up, which he should not have done, especially as the teacher had told him he had to sit on the bench in the shade. I don't excuse his behavior, and while I don't think it was bullying, I think a punishment such as having to sit on the bench the next day even if he has his hat would be more appropriate.

The independent assessment was the wiat II abbreviated.

He had some behaviour issues at the beginning of the year, but nothing out of the ordinary they said. It has been gradually getting worse I think. I will look into ADHD as he definitely has some characteristics.

Thanks for all of your input. I will take on board what the teacher thinks and have an open discussion about what is the best solution.

I think the school is doing differentiation for him, but I get very little feedback on what. I didn't realise they had done another reading comprehension assessment. It was something with levels, and his teacher said she started at level 30 and went backwards as he couldn't answer closed questions. She said it was not til level 21 that still uses pictures and that he depends on the visual cues. She may be right, but I didn't know they had done that.
Then last week he came home with the standard cut and paste words worksheets and I started to wonder what they wee doing with him. But I think there was a sub that day. So I do think they have his own plan, I just don't know what exactly he is working on.

Also, there is a computer program for math that the year 1 kids get homework on, but DS has not been given a login, so he doesn't get access to it at home. I asked and they said there were issues because he is k in the system not year 1. So I don't know what he is doing in math, and it seems he is at a disadvantage not having access to the homework.

I do sympathise with the school, and I think there are definitely some social and emotional issues that need to be addressed. I just hope we can find a balance with academic needs too.

Oh the wiat was for math and isolated word reading. The neale was the reading comprehension.

Seems I jumped the gun on the hat - if he merely picked the wrong hat out of a box which seems plausible then the consequence is way out of proportion.

Sorry.

Going backwards on reading sounds like disengagement and I would have a meeting with the staff at the school to see where things stand as others here have suggested.

No need to apologise. I will have to get more information about the hat incident myself now. My impression was he picked one off the ground near where he was asked to sit. He would have known it wasn't his. But now I am having images of him pulling a hat off some kids head, which I don't think is what happened, but I will confirm with the teacher today.

It's important to address the hat, but I agree with pp-- in no way should the the child's academic program be altered as punishment. They need to "discipline" in the original sense of the word-- "to teach."

If you do something like that it is appropriate that you miss recess or have to apologise publically or whatever. It is not appropriate to take away an academic activity. If the other kid had taken the hat they would have denied him maths for the week would they. I know it is not quite the same but an adequate education should not be used to manipulate.

Dubsyd, I'd also ask the teacher for clarity on the hat incident.


ITA!

polarbear

So I misunderstood about math class. He is in the top level group for year 1 math. That makes me feel a lot better.

As for the hat issue, as I suspected he took someone else's hat that was lying around. So he was definitely not bullying. And the other kids were already out playing, so I don't think he was preventing someone else from playing. I mentioned today that I didn't think he should be getting special treatment, just appropriate stuff. I think that will be something to be addressed at the formal meeting. Overall I am feeling much better. Thinking he was underachieving in math did get my mind rolling on the possibility of ADHD, which has occurred to me on a number of occasions over the last few years, but he is only 5.5, so not sure if it is better just to wait and see how that goes. Although, I would say he qualifies for all 18 of the diagnostic criteria in the dsm v. But I don't know how much in interfere with his life yet. I know I get frustrated with things like getting him to get dressed or stay sitting at the dinner table, and he is always losing stuff at school. The parenting fun never ends does it my husband doesn't think it a problem and his teacher thinks his behaviour is within the norm, so maybe best to leave that off for now.

I haven't read the DSM but don't the symptoms have to persist past 7 or 8 to get a diagnosis. Most of the behavoirs are perfectly normal at 5.

I have observed from a distance that programs may be more readily available to a gifted child who has the requisite maturity for the class.

I have also noticed programs that have all of the different types of gifted kids together and, to be honest, there can be interference between different types of learners, so a gifted support teacher would really have to understand what is going on in order to know who needs which type of environment and at what time.

A gifted person is used to, by nature, taking into account every possible, probable, impossible, improbable factor, but as far as I can tell the non-gifted people don't work that way at all.

In any school year figure out what your child and family need, communicate it and work from there. I think it is safe to say that it feels like trial and error, but that is how you are finding the way even if the paths are numerous, endless, curvy, straight, etc. It is part of the gifted family experience and it is a lot of work for the parents for sure.

My advice about ADHD is to wait til he is in first grade and the year gets underway. Ask if you can go into volunteer or at least observe. Then watch him and compare to the rest of the class. DS's last first grade teacher rated him actually above average for focus/attention. Then we switched schools/teachers. The teacher expresseed concern about "focus" but in a very off-hand manner. If I had let it drop, she would have let it drop. But I told her I want to come in. When I went in I could see immediately what she meant, and I don't see the same behavior at home. He looked like a space cadet. We are doing a trial of meds and it seems to be helping a lot. In one day he went from being on task 49 percent of the time (the school psych observed him during math) to being exactly like the other kids.
So what I'm saying is that if you have concerns, don't rely on the teachers to tell you. It was the same with DD. I really had to push the issue, go in and watch, etc. The teachers would talk about focus issues but acted like it wasn't that big of a deal and they didn't know if it was out of the norm or not. They don't want to come right out directly and tell you (because they are not allowed to). When I tutored in a school last year I worked with some kids who obviously had ADHD. I would express my concerns to the teachers and they would agree there are issues but never really wanted to talk about it, and they didn't talk to the parents unless it was very severe and the kid was disruptive.
That being said, it is very hard to figure out in kids that young because they are all kind of unfocused. That's why it makes sense to wait til he's 6 or 6.5, at least.

I wholeheartedly agree with blackcat's suggestion of going in to observe/help out in the classroom at the beginning of first grade. I wish I had not waited until November of first grade to do that.
That way you can see with your own eyes what the teacher is seeing and provide useful information based on your unparalleled knowledge of your son.
I took one look at my son inhis classroom environment and could tell he was extremely stressed, to others he just looked neurotic and quiet, which probably fit their expectations just fine since he has aspergers. He was seriously underacheiving academically and regressing in autism behaviors.... but doing so quietly and cooperatively so no one noticed but me.

thanks blackcat and LRS. We are actually in Australia, so we are in the second term of his kindergarten. He will not start 1st grade until February of next year, and he will be 6 then. Would you recommend I wait and look at an observation then? I am going to post some of my concerns in the 2e forum to try to get some perspective on whether my concerns really warrant further investigation, as I am starting to feel like I am being an over worrying mother.

I don't know how things work in Australia but in the US, most docs wouldn't put a child on medication until they are around 6 anyway. When does he turn 6? Even if you don't medicate, though, if you have a diagnosis you can ask for modifications/accommodations in the classroom, although in kindergarten probably not much is expected anyway. I would probably see how he does and then at the end of the school year (or sometime after he turns 6), if you still have concerns, ask the teacher fill out an ADHD inventory. You can get it from the school psych or his doctor. You can take it to the doctor and never let the school know the results, unless you want to.

DS turns 6 in January. I think it sounds like waiting a bit will be the best bet

It would be reasonable to wait but if your gut is really telling you something is wrong go and observe and see for yourself.

I'd evaluate as soon as you can; sometimes it takes months to get the appointment. Talk to the tester about what tests are appropriate and why.

Disagree with Puffin here--although the public perception of ADHD is poorly defined, and may result in mislabeling, it can be very informative to have an expert look earlier.

Perhaps. Go with your gut anyway. You know your child best and if you are concerned there is probably something going on. That doesn't mean it is a really bad thing - as previous posters have said there can be a multitude of reasons.

eTa. I am assuming enough similarity between NZ and Australia that it would be really hard to get anywhere unless the teacher is willing to allow the assessor to observe or fill out a form saying there is a problem.