Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Uncertainty of 2e

I'm looking for opinions and perhaps guidance. The essence of my question...and then I'll give all the background....is whether to accelerate a child with EG IQ that has lower achievement scores (about 1.5 grades above) but not diagnosed LD...just a potential processing glitch? I'm stuck on next steps due to my child's complicated profile. He is in first grade at a high achieving public school

Background:
IQ: He completed ed psych testing last summer with a reputable tester. WISC-IV shows a GAI of 170 with majority of strength in VCI (166) but a 145ish in PRI. The processing speed was significantly lower...my recall is 97. Symbol search was lowest which I understood was a sign that the processing speed may be a visual perception or processing glitch versus just about fine motor skills (which are certainly depressed.)

ACH: WJ-III showed a discrepancy. Results were rather consistent amongst subtexts but depressed in comparison to IQ. Most scores were in the low 120s....1-2 grades ahead range I believe.

Phonological testing: revealed strength not deficit. Test been down three times.

Beery motor: demonstrated no major call outs but a little dip consistent with processing dip.

Executive skill and other behavior assessments: in normal range (though I see a few executive skill red flags as he gets older...nothing extreme!)

Consensus: something going on but what? Unknown.

Intervention: Our plan was to remediate outside of school. Enrich inside school. And wait to see what develops before we go down the path of accelerate or even accommodate/ remediate in school.
- 45 minutes a week with OG tutor
- 1 hour a week with OT on handwriting.
- Vision was checked and fine (we did not go down the developmental vision road due to skepticism of vision therapy on my DH's behalf,..we went down ophthalmologist road.)


We are a year later. It is very hard for me to ascertain improvement.

Teacher Feedback:
- tutor says she has never seen someone learn so fast. That my child never once needed a phonics lesson repeated. Tutor believes there is some processing glitch based on how my child seems very dependent on rules to decode. She provided a thorough comprehension test two grades above and he read at 145 wpm; he missed 4 words, 2 that did not really change the meaning of the story. He had 100% on comprehension questions but retellimg was dismal with lack of detail and all out of sequence.

- OT says she has never seen a child progress so fast. Started with fine motor in handwriting of a child two years younger than chronological age. Now on par if not ahead. Works best when using highlighted paper and well line. Speed is the issue now and minimal reversals (the number 6 still an issue.)

- teacher and gifted coordinator see his brilliance. Believes there is absolute no learning disability or processing glitch. Believe he doesn't always listen jumping into an activity before the lesson is complete and he tries to make the solutions much more complicated than they actually are (because he doesn't listen to the process given to solve.). If course doesn't listen or can't listen is my question...meaning is he not comprehending the process or is he truly tuning out? They are adamant he tunes out based on how eager he is to start the assignment. I have seen him do this!

The child: He does enjoy some math and reading work outside of school but very little...he will do maybe 30 minutes on .khan academy (school gave him an account for enrichment) and he reads an awful lot of non-fiction. He isn't terribly academic but he is interested in science and ancient history/world cultures. He complains of boredom in school...but doesn't want more math or reading per sell.wants science and social studies! Told me he might just scream out one day during class. , "teach me science. I m begging you!" He is a rather creative (not artsy) thinker.

I post all of this as his underachievement really scared me as did the testers feedback that she felt pretty certain some LD was present and it was making him embarrassed and anxious. However I have trouble clearly naming this LD. Meanwhile I'm on hold trying to ascertain do I advocate for some acceleration? I think I'd be laughed at if I try and ask for a single accommodation. I don't want my child to have a life of coasting as I can tell he isn't the overachiever/academically competitive type...but he is a good worker and tries to do whatever anyone asks him too.

So, here is where I need advice. Anyone accelerate a EG child with 2e issues that has depressed achievement scores (but still 1-2 grades above level). How did that work for ya?

What does he do when presented with more challenging material?

Faster pacing?

What would an acceleration get you that you don't have now?

Have you taken a look at the IAS?

While the not-listening-to-directions thing might be a problem in context, it isn't necessarily clear to me that (in a 5-7yo child) this is anything abnormal. It's a metacognitive skill set that is likely to be highly undeveloped in the age range, basically. Immaturity, if you will.

That's why I think you should probably be looking at tools to evaluate whether or not the child you have in front of you is a good candidate for acceleration or not.

I'd also point out that while you have teacher/tester input on your side, which is great, you may have a serious uphill battle for acceleration unless the achievement is grade-appropriate and then some. It sounds as though the achievement would support an acceleration, but that it might not produce the results you'd hope for-- in our experience, science and social studies are the areas where acceleration produces the least, and most ephemeral, improvements in fit. It also comes with costs-- increased demand on speed and executive skills. Is part-time or subject acceleration an option? Might look at that.

No helpful advice on the processing speed. Hopefully someone with more useful input will offer you some insights.

Challenging work: When he has more challenging material he ignores it if given an option. If told to do it...he does it and usually well. In the case he can't figure it out he frustrates easily. Last year this looked like crumpled paper, hidden work, meltdowns...now he typically will approach someone and ask for help. A combination of maturity and learning through all the OT work there is a difference between hard and impossible.

Faster pacing: he complains that school introduces something on Monday and then just repeats it every day until free Friday where kids who didn't get it catch up and those who did get a free day. He says he could start his free days on Tuesday but no one will let him . However with processing being average I'm not sure where his threshold is for this. He definitely hated math facts. He was completing 15-20 in time given when they began last quarter. Six weeks later he now completes 30-39 in same time.

What do I want: I want him to be challenged. I recognize his temperament is such that he doesn't challenge himself. I worry in current grade--differentiation comes with too much independence...plug him in and let him learn. No scaffolding. No instruction. The alternative is also too much choice...they offer him challenge work during free time but he chooses to make elaborate puppets out of paper instead. I don't like that he has to give that up to receive differentiation. I might be misguided but acceleration guarantees him a little challenge in the work (for now at least...) while still allowing him his free time to create if he works at a good pace. He also gets instruction on these topics he is just suppose to be learning independently right now.

I realize differentiation should include instruction and substitution...but it appears there is much uphill in making that a reality in the classroom. Thus I wonder which is better battle...Acceleration or compacting?

I did do the IAS on my own. I used his scores from last year renormed two grades above plus his current grade ITBS of 99%. His IAS score was 50....which is smack in the middle of the good range. Of course this is without anyone's input and there are subjective questions in the assessment.

I wouldn't accelerate without achievement scores in a better range. I'm assuming they may be...not to his IQ level but I suspect he is now 2-3 grades ahead versus 1-2. He will test again in June, privately. SSA has been my immediate interest as his math achievement was his strongest and had him 3 grades above.

I'm at a point where I've been looking at him through the lenses of a LD for a year and now I'm having trouble seeing the LD and wondering what new lenses I need? If that makes any sense.

That's the problem, though-- a single acceleration may well challenge in OTHER ways, but probably not academically. The issue is then a matter of exacerbation of the things that would give OTHERS pause in further acceleration, if that makes sense. So if "work is too easy" is at the root of the problem NOW, a single skip may not really fix it, and will (ironically) make it LOOK as though he's been placed well outside of his ability, rather than it simply being a matter of having made some things worse without correspondingly making the others better ENOUGH at the same time. If that makes sense.

So if you choose to pursue acceleration, you have to be pretty confident that your child will look like a stunning success story-- or you'll be worse off than before. ANY problems in the accelerated placement will probably be chalked up to "immaturity" or "inappropriately elevated expectations."

Also know that in K-5, it doesn't take that much to get a kid a few grade levels ahead. At least some of that can be attributed to work with a private tutor, yes? It does sound as though there has been a lot of additional work done with him over the past year. So purely on achievement, I'd discount that as a reason to accelerate (or not) in my own mind. The rate at which he seems to learn truly novel concepts would be a much stronger argument for me. Well, along with your test results, of course.

Also-- no worries on the intrinsic motivation front. I have one of those kids, too-- and you're right, independent study is a disaster with one of them. They simply don't "turn on" like that in a vacuum. Well, not for the stuff that others place in front of them, anyway.

What kinds of inputs do you get from others who know your child in semi-academic settings such as enrichment? Does he rise to the occasion when placed with older children in an area of interest? Or not?

Thank you both for the response. I'm on an iPhone so forgive typos.

The heart of the issue is exactly what was asked .."What are we remediating for?" Is there or is t there a problem? His remediation has been for:

Written Expression and Reading. There were some specific issues observed and those are no longer present. Ill detail at the bottom in case anyone has experience/expertise that helps me.

But to address the suggestion to nail down the LD...that has been my quest this year. We have had everything evaluated that I know to do....speech therapist did all her tests (and laughed at us for even testing his phonic and language skills), OT and PT did theirs (and say he is bordeline for dyspraxia and dysgraphia), reading specialist did hers and neuro psych looked at results and told me I have enough here to diagnose minor case of dysgraphia and possibly dyspraxia...And she'd do it on discrepency model but she'd rather my ed pysch diagnose as neuropsych has never seen Iq scores as high as my sons and she wouldn't know where to tease out LD and compensation. Pediatrician is happy to diagnose just based on what I tell her I haven't had her write it up as I dont want the labels if they won't be of help...school says no impact on education not even a 504 would be valid. Ed psych doesn't want to diagnose anything yet even though she suggests some LD is present based on his demeanor during achievement...she says he is too young and PG kids are so asynchronous and many a times have slower to develop processing speeds. I hear by middle school things should be real clear if a problem exists or perhaps even third grade. She is baffled how all achievements were around same level and no further tests show a breakdown or glitch in his processing.

So I could and one might argue should wait longer but a skip would be easier socially and emotionally now...and I still have an issue with his lack of exposure to hard work and how that is shaping his work habits.

He loves reading now and enjoys math but prefers to discuss and work on less process oriented tasks and more conceptual ones. This my be a product of how ritualistic and process heavy early grade education is.

We provide enrichment best we can while managing everything parents manage plus two demanding careers. We will continue with tutor and OT until every person agrees it is moot. My son enjoys it.

Detail as to his struggles and progress in case of any insight as to his underachievement:

Reading- last year when faced with an unfamiliar word he guessed based on context and clues. He was good at it but not fluent. He now decodes with fluency of 145 wpm so clearly automatic now. He originally tested with only small phonic gaps (dipthongs, bossy Rs, some short vowel combos). Once he was taught those phonic rules his reading soared. He read Harry Potter this year with barely an error. He is even decoding nes better (though still his weakness). So I can't see a current reading issue. Nor can his teachers. We can just say we all expected a child with VCI of 166 would be doing this at 5 not 7. Was time the answer and something clicked? Was there a gap that the expressed phonic rules closed? Did he just have a more unusual reading progression and decoding slowed him down this he guessed for efficiency? I may never know.

Handwriting- he is a preemie and fine motor skills are weaker. He had issues cutting. He never drew until his fours. He has poor grip, and is a slow writer. His circles still show a shakiness and he breaks lead often as he presses hard to compensate. He did have some spacing challenges a year ago. After using the finger rule enough he doesn't crowd anymore. He has strong grammar and spelling is much stronger now that he has the phonic rules. He was very resistant to writing in part due to the pain it caused his hands but also he hated not knowing how to spell the words. He is much more confident and his writing exercises at school usually are 2 full pages long and neat. His spontaneous writing in unlined boxes where he is working fast are messy. So I know he is compensating and working hard at writing but he is now able to forge ahead and show what he thinks and knows.

Thanks!

I met with teacher and gifted coordinator in February. They are aware of his scores. They see his IQ but not any disability or challenges. They have theories to explain underachievement most are maturity based...but age appropriate maturity

I asked about school's policy and history with acceleration. Gifted teacher took me off line appropriately as I opened it up as a future discussion. She emailed me several times since that she was researching and it appeared the policy is evolving at district level. I got an email last week that she wants to meet early May with vice principal to discuss and that the VP wants to share with me her thoughts on acceleration. I interpret this move as policy allows, school has negative opinion on it.

I am in no hurry as I think I want to learn, open the door and perhaps
Have them agree to end of year test him to see where he really is at by their own standards.

Here is an idea for you as you go into that meeting-- if they are seeing his weaknesses not as 2e issues at all, but as age-appropriate ones which are (for him) relative weaknesses, then a radical acceleration might seem like a huge jump to them.


Are there any split level classrooms in which your son's placement (sans skip) would place him into the LOWER grade next year?

That is, a 2/3 classroom?

That way, one plan COULD be for him to complete a full school year next year at an appropriate level for him-- and a decision wouldn't have to be made all at once, but the year might serve as a way to acclimate him to the older peer group, acclimate the administration to his readiness, and allow you and everyone else to help him mitigate any stumbling blocks before he gets into 4th grade.

That kind of thoughtful, slow, we-can-turn-back-if-we-see-red-flags, plan might be an easier sell with teachers and administration.

It also lets your DS test-drive an acceleration in a way that doesn't mean an additional placement shift for him if things don't fit perfectly next year. His maturity will still be fine for the cohort in the classroom (since he's in the age range in that class-- just at the lower side) and the academics on the higher side should provide everyone with a clear picture of how capable he is with the increased academic expectations.

Thank you. I'll double check but as of now we don't have any mixed classes. I wondered if SSA would be another way to test the waters without overly committing as well.

In a bit of a hurry here, so not much time for detail, but here are my 2 cents, fwiw.

If you can, I'd reconsider seeing a developmental optometrist. The issues they pick up aren't necessarily picked up in a conventional eye exam. I totally understand how odd the concept can seem and how it may be something that sounds bogus to people - because when our dd had a relatively low score had a relatively low score on symbol search and her neuropsych suggested a developmental optometrist eval I was *very* skeptical - and then completely surprised by the results. I'm now a believer And I'm very glad we went through the eval back then rather than waiting and having my dd move forward in school with an undiagnosed vision challenge.

One thing that makes me wonder about vision with your ds (aside from the symbol search score) is that he was a preemie. Another thing - do you have the PRI subtest scores (I think it was PRI that was lower than VCI?). I think there was a subtest in PRI that my dd did relatively poorly on due to vision issues.

Re the reading - I wouldn't put much thought into a PG child not reading way ahead of grade level at 5 but being there at 7 - not all HG/+ kids learn to read early. It's also possible that the reading evils he had done at 5 aren't accurate. At 5 my ds did not want anyone to *know* he could read, and he had me (and his teachers) completely fooled.

The other thing that can happen with reading and HG/+ kids is that it may be more difficult to read at lower levels of ability because they have to read/decode each word. Once they are reading at slightly higher levels and have a lot more words/paragraph etc they can read quickly because they can pick things up from context rather than having to read each and every word correctly.

Sorry I didn't have more time to explain - let me know if you have questions!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I wouldn't worry about the lack of achievement so much at this age. I suspect that some of that may be a mismatch in his interests vs what school offers him. And age-appropriate maturity level mixed with high IQ can sometimes have us seeing "problems" that are not really there. I wonder what you or the school mean by underachievement, is that vs his ultimate tested potential? Maybe I missed that somewhere.