Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy How do you discipline a PG 6 year old???

I am scrambling in the dark here trying to figure out how to best discipline our 6 year old PG boy. You always read that parenting a child like this is different, and I agree with that. I am then assuming the "standard" discipline tactics are not the most productive with these children.

BUT WHAT DO YOU DO THEN??

Are the regular tactics actually counter productive and harmful??

What do you do with your kids? We are dealing with a lot of "teenage type" defiance and argumentative situations. I am at a loss at what to do....

Thanks!

The definition of "regular tactics" vary from parent to parent, and their effectiveness varies from kid to kid, and sometimes even from moment to moment with the same kid, so you really haven't given us much to go on.

The only real difference that has struck me as more or less universal with HG+ kids is that an appeal to their rationality (when they are calm, that is) seems to be an approach that works. This is much more true than it (seemingly) is with more NT children.

Other than that, ITA with Dude-- it's a moving target.

I can't peg down my DS8 more than HG+, but the concepts are similar. I think modern management philosophy is more useful than parenting methodologies when dealing with a really smart kid. You aren't going to manipulate, scream, threaten, time out them into compliance. Trust, positive feedback loops, open communication, etc.

If you make it a game about your ego, they will play that game, too, enjoy it, and win often enough. Positive modeling is always relevant.

When DS was less tractable and wanted a debate for everything, then we will go through phases where he needs to debate for basics like what food is available, what gets watched on TV, whether we go anywhere on the weekend, etc. We've also learned to lowball options, because he'll want to debate for more.

Though posted a few times, I found the biggest influence with DS has been undivided attention. He wants that, and knows that if he makes a day awkward, then he loses out on that. With a guaranteed playtime each night that is all about what he wants to do, it is a useful bargaining chip.

Totally agree with this. Of course it doesn't make it easier. I am learning to let go of my asian behavior expectations that I was brought up with..absolutely no back talk negotiations allowed.
Everyday I am shocked as to how effectively my HG DD6 can outsmart me when we are having our struggles. The last word from her is often leaves me thinking..well she has a point, or how on earth did she remember that??

"Regular Tactics", well, time outs, losing a toy,losing a fun activity, give a warning before applying discipline. The stuff you read about in parenting books, magazines etc. The tactics my friends talk about. It doesn't work. Seems he really could care less if a toy is taken away,sitting in time out doesn't bother him one bit, even taking away fun things to do doesn't seem to matter. He really just smirks when this type of discipline is applied...complete and utter disrespect.

"You aren't going to manipulate, scream, threaten, time out them into compliance.", been there, done that, and you are right Zen Scanner, it does NOTHING.

We talk to him when he is rational but even then, he will show disrespect at times. Roll his eyes etc. The other day I told him he needs to try to listen better. His response: "What is listen? What do you listen with? Your eyes? Some other body part?", said with a smirk.

I feel there is a fight over control between us. And it is a horrible feeling when it seems he is the one controlling the situation. He is that good. Sounds ridiculous, he is 6...but it is what it is, but I am not going to tolerate it. I just keep thinking, how will the dynamic be when he is 10, 14???

We have to put a stop to this.

Zen Scanner, he also has undivided attention every night which he loves. What do you have him do on the days he lost out on it due to unacceptable behavior?

He was supposed to get to go on an overnight trip today with his dad. The condition was for him to behave the past few days. He hasn't. This morning he asked "Did I earn it?" I asked him if he thought he did. He responded "No, not really" I said we agreed. So at least he KNOWS when the behavior is not good.

It sounds like you are on the path. We've always had it run in phases of different lengths.

For the fixed playtime, it's simple. Bedtime at 9, playtime at 8:30. If he's lost 5 minutes of playtime, then 8:35 playtime and 9 bedtime.

Actually, I'm using present tense above, but it's very rare anymore that he needs a small shock like losing playtime to get his attention. It seems like they need to understand how the whole ball of wax works together (ethics, morality) before they can use it (almost a perfectionism thingy.) Typically, we only have to provide specific feedback tied to some ethic, and he'll adjust his behavior. If it was something he knew better, he'll be more upset with his own self than anything I could say or do.

1. Knowing that this is normal for gifted kids makes it better. It is part of raising a gifted child.
2. Know that our asynchronous development can really benefit us later. When adolescents are feeling their angst, the gifted child, who has already gone through that stage, may be more focused on their short and long-term goals and are already working very hard on them.
3. Try to remember how you felt at this age. It helps to remember and relate. If the child's gifts are inherited from someone else in the family, talk to them or the people who knew them well. Putting the behavior in a family context makes it more manageable. Those parents of ancestors got through it and you can, too.
4. Redirect the child for short-time sanity. Gifted kids have strong interests, so you can change and control the situation by introducing some book, toy or activity that will engage them.
5. After the upset, figure out the trigger, the issue, the cause, etc., and try to talk about it in detail. Gifted kids are often highly intuitive, insightful, and may want to discuss it in detail. (For example, our child will feel outraged or indignant at some perceived injustice that other children will not even detect.)
6. Make sure you feel rested, so that your patience is strong.
Good luck and give yourself credit for your hard work.

Our use of timeouts is a bit different than how it's used in most families. They're not a punishment, though DD9 still needs some convincing on that. We send her to her room to deal with emotional overload. She's free to do whatever she wants in there, and she's free to come out as soon as she's ready. If she comes out and starts yelling at us again, she's sent back in.

Punishments in our home are the loss of some privilege. This is the part that can change from moment to moment. The key here is to get inside your child's head and see what they value. If they don't care about losing it, it's not an effective punishment. When my DD was 2, the go-to punishment was bedtime stories, and then one day it stopped being effective. She's shrug, and go back to whatever she was doing. I had to try a few other things, and was quite surprised when she reacted in outrage when I proposed to cut her off from chocolate milk. That became the new go-to for a while. These days, friends coming over is our favorite go-to, because she is highly social.

No matter what the punishment, though, any decisions have to be final, so she experiences real consequences, and that we mean what we say. The natural reaction is for her to protest, which means she stands to lose even more privileges. She never has to lose more than 2 before she realizes the better part of valor.

As for controlling, we have a zen-like approach, because honestly... she's 9. We're older, bigger, and smarter. We have all the money, and we control her entire environment. There's nothing she can do about any of it. Knowing that she can't be a threat and she can't take away control (unless we let her) makes it pretty easy to blow off her tirades without responding in anger... and let's just say that I'm not the kind of person normally associated with zen.

As for showing disrespect, I think it's important to identify those situations immediately, demand the behaviors change immediately, and offer consequences if they don't. But even more important, I think, is to show children the kind of respect that they deserve. I have a tendency to take it pretty far, as I'm far more prone to address a child as "sir" or "ma'am" than I am another adult. It's listening to them, and responding in ways that show you were paying attention. It's respecting their ideas, because sometimes they'll surprise you (if they're PG, you can expect them to). It's honoring your commitments to them, "Yes, I told you I could play with you later, it's later, let's play." And it's also giving them a locus of control... picking clothes, activities, including them in decisions on what to have for dinner, etc.

I find that all of that tends to short-circuit the disrespect before it even happens.


The problem with this scenario is he's shooting for a vague, undefined target. Instead, I would have approached it by giving him permission up front, but letting him know he could lose that opportunity for misbehavior. Then, if he's acting up in a way that needs immediate correction, I'd warn him that continued behavior would mean the end of the trip. If he stops, fine. If not, trip canceled, no negotiations.

Yup.

You're living with the 6yo version of my now-14yo DD.

I have done "conventional" punishment/discipline with her-- and taken to EXTREMES, even... and it's absolutely useless.

As discipline, I mean.

I will also say here that my personal belief on this subject is quite old-school and a little bit non-PC... but...

we're her parents, we DO have life experience and the judgment that comes with it, and we'll flex as much muscle as necessary in order to FORCE some measure of compliance with that authority. Period.


I do think that my hypothesis there has paid some dividends in that my DD has very very little interest in being a "bad" teen, and is very very open in her communication about teen issues and her autonomy with us at 14.

But 6 through 8 years old was just about the nadir of my entire life, honestly. I can distinctly recall having my then 7yo sit on our living room hearth-- with NOTHING to do, no talking to her, etc-- for two days straight. I brought her food, she got bathroom breaks, and she was sent to bed on time each evening. It sounds cruel... but my DH and I were up against-- well, Cool Hand Luke.

What we've got, here... is failure... to communicate...




Hang in there.

I have NEVER figured out what my daughter's "triggers" really were/are-- she's too cagey and too manipulative to give us the ammunition... and she also has proven to be equally slippery re: "currency" to leverage HER. Her response to the reinstatement/removal of privileges has always been "Yeah-- whatever... you do your thing, and it's nothing to do with me,K?" (Maddening.)

I have found that about the ONLY thing that gets my daughter's attention is physical correction. Obviously, I don't recommend that approach with most kids, but all in all, in my own well-considered opinion ONLY-- a well-timed swat to a clothed backside was far, far less cruel than some of the more "gentle" behavioral tools like removal of privileges. Again, this is circumstance-specific, but it is because there IS no way to leverage her by removing privileges, other than through VERY extreme measures, which are frankly cruel. You can take her all the way down to bare legally obligatory subsistence-- dry, minimally clothed and fed... and she's still not giving so much as an inch. She knows that she's got us-- that there's a point that we can't go past. She'll wait, thank you very much. The only way around it is to TRULY get rid of her favorite possessions. I wasn't willing to go there, and she knew it-- so while I might take them from her, she knew she'd be getting them back eventually. {sigh}

Our major method of punishment now is removal of autonomy (with a clear message that it's happening because she has "demonstrated an inability to use sufficiently good judgment on her own," ergo, we are stepping in to DO IT FOR HER), and controlling her free reading.

Don't expect to get satisfaction, even so, however-- I have NEVER gotten that from her, and I expect that I mostly will not. She is NEVER going to give me contrition or repentant body language/expression.

You are right, I think, to consider this a power struggle. That is precisely the case with my DD. I decided when she was about four years old that I was in it to win it. The reason? Because it is in HER best interests to learn to submit to authority, of course, but also because it was in her emotional best interests to feel that SHE wasn't the one "in charge" and that there was an authority in control of things in her life. If I had let her win, she would not have felt secure or safe as a young child in a non-PG world. Even at 4, it bothered her to see adults blithely doing such obviously stupid things-- scary place, if a PG child feels like NO responsible adults are in charge, YK?


So DD has a safe zone with me; primarily established because I never let her "win" her ongoing power struggle with me. I've gotten to loosen up things over the years as her maturity and judgment have improved. It's not that I want the autonomy that belongs to her. It's that I'm not giving her MORE than she's ready for-- even if she insists.

Her dad is another story-- she has regularly rolled over him-- but she also doesn't TRUST him as much as she does me. Why? because he doesn't enforce rigid boundaries with her, IMO. He lets her soften the behavioral standard beyond where he really should... but then snaps back when she pushes too far, and gets really ANGRY with her. I don't really do that. Oh, sure-- sometimes she will inadvertently go too far with me, too-- but mostly she KNOWS where the bounds are. Knowing, she doesn't push them. Anymore, I mean.

I do not put up with major disrespect for adults. Us included. It's simply not an acceptable means of demonstrating disagreement. It's bratty.

I guess what I'm saying is that she is a MUCH better teenaged girl than she was a 5-8yo child, but I credit the hard, hard work when she was that age and it was so difficult. I made her write apologies to me, to her dad, to a teacher, and to anyone else that she was nasty to. If I'd let her roll me, she'd be a hellion now. I believe it. (I was, and so was my BIL-- and DD is eerily like us both.)




I've mentioned The Manipulative Child here before-- many times, in fact... but I can't recommend that book enough for this kind of child. FORGET what parenting guidelines tell you children are capable of at particular ages. You're parenting a world-class, hardened criminal defense attorney with acting skills that ought to result in an Oscar nomination. Oh-- but with all of the judgment and impulsivity of a 6yo.

Cheers. Just know that you're not alone, and that if you hang in there, it does get better.

I've never figured out a way to punish HER without punishing anyone else, incidentally. I wanted to go with her and a friend of hers to the local art museum on Sunday, but then had to tell her "NO WAY" rather abruptly on Friday afternoon because of some stunt she pulled-- er, or tried to, anyway. Point being, I got "punished" as well, when I punished HER. That's the way it is, though.

hey?! :P


I do the same; it's amazing how many kids will respond to a simple "Yes, sir." You'd think I was the only adult ever to really notice them.

Believe it or not, I'm more of less the female version of Dude on this score-- it's a very Zen thing, knowing that ultimately I hold all of the real control in the situation.

I mean-- it's not as though DD8 was going to drive HERSELF to some desired activity, YK?

We did this for many years. When my son was younger he would sometimes just lose it and I would send him to him room. It wasn't punishment just that he needed time to decompress, and we needed space. When he was rational we could talk.

Thank you so much everyone for the responses. It means a lot.



This actually works IF I ask it as a question instead of putting words in his mouth. We have found out many things about his feelings about school by doing this. After an episode of anger I would ask about what is going on inside and what is really upsetting him, and we would find out things I never knew he felt. I have to remind myself of doing this



YES, I need to do more of this as well. I am thinking this might actually work BEFORE we get to the point of misbehaving. I can kind of tell when he is getting wound up and I can sense his mood.



This might have been a better idea. I just always thought that having to EARN something instead of having it to begin with is the way to go. Will try it the other way around next time.

And oh, Zen, where are you, my long lost friend... (And I do yoga too....)



I have put him in his room from early afternoon until bedtime. The interesting thing is that he just sits there. Doesn't do anything. I have gotten some wails out of him doing that, had him show regret for his behavior.

Otherwise, like you said, he doesn't care, or doesn't let us know he cares..

I like the idea of writing a letter. I bought him a diary and thought I would tell him to sit in his room and write about what made him so upset and why he made the choice to act the way he did. He is a writer so I think this might work. Might also be his therapy in upcoming years.

HowlerKarma, he understands he can't drive himself to an activity that has been taken away, but he always says "I will ride my bike there...."

You have given me some great ideas and food for thought here. THANK YOU!

I like this advice, and I'll add that giving him SMART goals (specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, time-bound) will give him ownership in changing his behaviour.

So, for a future trip, you could give conditional permission on the condition that, say, he not roll his eyes more than twice over the prior week. I would try to embed a learning element in the goal--if he catches himself right away, self-corrects, and apologizes sincerely, I wouldn't count it in the tally.


ITA. I've used my organizational psychology training more in the last six months with DS than I would have in the same time at work!

He can't ride his bike there if it's been...

- Chained up.
- Locked in the garage/shed.
- Suspended on the wall/stored in the attic.
- Taken apart.
- Sold at a yard sale.
- Donated to charity.

In case you're interested, this is a useful synopsis of a lot of research on goal setting theory, which I think you'll find helpful.

http://faculty.washington.edu/janegf/goalsetting.html

I haven't really read the OP or the thread contents, but I think that the answer is chocolate.

I would start with a normal sized chocolate bar and only go for the jumbo size if that doesn't work.

Is the chocolate for the parent or the child more details please. Lol

Oh dear. Parents, of course.

I add a glass of wine at the end of a particularly hideous day.

No advice, mind-- just what works for me.

HK, your DD, sounds like one of mine. a swat on the diaper (2yrs) was the only thing she responded to at all. If you put her in timeout with nothing around her, she would play itsy bitsy spider and thoroughly entertain herself. I started just counting to 2 because I started at 5 and she without fail waited for 4. so I changed strategies. Now all I have to do is hold one finger up and whatever it is is over. She is 8 and a very good child with a lot of spunk but geared toward the right things. she will follow rules but will tell anyone if she thinks a rule is silly. She is, I think, a good balance of respectful yet definitely not a conformist. I pick my battles but if it is a battle that I deem worthy, I am consistent and I am the parent. Respecting others are truthfulness are the top priorities.

Reminds me of another thing we did when DS was 3 to 4 and could get pretty wound up, particularly in the car or public places. We used a point system where if it ever reached five points meant he'd miss out on something. We'd give plusses and minuses throughout a trip. The mystery result and the scoring meant: A. We rarely had to enforce it (and when we did, I'd just say: "guess you'll never know") B. We didn't have to have any awkward or disruptive disciplining in the car or public places C. Zen

Yup-- I'm big on "discipline is a bit like a box of chocolates" with our DD. We definitely don't TELL her what a consequence WOULD be for the asking. She never quite knows what might be coming-- just that it will relate to some kind of natural consequence... and be unpleasant in (probably) direct proportion to the lesson which needs learning.

Probably.

Oh, and that mom and dad are pretty much endlessly creative and HG+ ourselves. Best not to forget that bit.

My DH actually did Zen training for years. We have been together for many years and I feel a lot of his Zen-ness has rubbed off on me (with zero Zen or any kind of meditative training).

You've gotten lots of great responses from others. You are right, parenting a PG child is very different. But they are all still children who WANT and DON'T WANT things. It is up to the parent to figure out what those things are and use them to either reinforce or extinguish behaviors in a child. As long as you are consistent in providing the consequence - and that is key - you can get a pretty good handle on things.

In our house we don't use any physical punishment. No judgment for those who do. We choose a (very) few things that are strictly verboten (ex. physical or verbal violence against others or intentional massive destruction of property). These violations always meet our imposed consequence instantly. Then there are all the other "softer" violations. As much as possible, we use natural consequences. To use your argumentative situation example - if the child is being rude. My children know that I can't "hear" them if they are rude to me. So, if they are speaking rudely to me, I can't engage in their conversation and therefore can't discuss whatever it is that they want to discuss. The rude talking is met with my silence. This is very upsetting to my kids - now. Someday this method may not work and so I will have to change the response.

"The other day I told him he needs to try to listen better. His response: "What is listen? What do you listen with? Your eyes? Some other body part?", said with a smirk."

To help you here - "trying to listen better" - to me this is a vague request and he is punching holes in it. Try to really figure out what behavior you are looking for. Are you looking for respect? Are you looking for him to complete a task? For example, for several days recently, DS7 was not "listening" when I was asking him to turn off the computer. When I told him, "if you would like to play on the computer tomorrow, you need to turn off the computer in 5 minutes", he didn't "listen" to me. The following day, he was not allowed to play on the computer. The day after that, he was able to "listen" very well!

I can't tell you how important it is to sort out what you REALLY want from your child and then how critical it is to follow through with the consequence.

Oh and rewards for the desired behavior is important too!

Thank you all so much! I am starting to practice a lot of the suggestions and it feel right. I needed a refresher. What I was doing was not working.

ZenScanner, I like the point system. Great idea.

Somewhereonearth, I think you are spot on with the "not listening" comment. I think I am pretty vague. I will make sure I specifically let him know what he was not listening to.

Also, I love the "Can't hear" idea. I honestly feel that will be very helpful. I am planning on ignoring the eye rolling, jokingly talking back etc. when I am trying to explain what he did wrong. It doesn't work at all. If anything I think he is having a blast with it. Seeing me get frustrated trying to get his attention back to the issue, all the while he is playing around with words I am saying, making jokes, twisting things around etc. It is a losing battle.

Again, thanks to everyone!

We don't punish, or reward. I'm with Dude, it's more about mutual respect. DD knows the family rules and abides by them, as do we all. We don't ignore her, or roll our eyes at her, or talk back, and she doesn't do it to us. If she ever is grouchy, it's because she's tired or stressed or upset about something, so she gets a good cuddle and a chat.
When she was 2, we could distract her from a tantrum by saying "Hey, do you want to know something interesting?" and she'd immediately snap out of it with an expectant look on her face. DH and I would then have to come up with some fascinating scientific or historical factoid, and she'd love it!
I would never ban DH from tv, or take his iPhone off him, or send him to his room - or smack him! - nor make him a sticker chart so I wouldn't do that to DD either.
Maybe Google unconditional parenting, it's quite interesting

My advice:
1) stay calm-don't yell!
2) stay kind
3) be very, very specific. In fact, for our now lovely dd23 (who is also PG), we wrote nearly everything down. We had contracts for everything and we used lists. We had (and still have with our children at home) family meetings weekly, and we took copious notes when dd was little (she'd often argue the specifics of what we asked, what she was supposed to do, etc).
4) don't argue - see above. My God, when they're PG, they can argue ALL DAY. I'm not saying to not give them an explanation if asked, but that's it. I don't negotiate all day, especially on stupid stuff (and yes, I actually do get to decide what is stupid stuff).
5) Don't put up with disrespect. If I got an eye roll as she was leaving the room, I let it go. If I got straight on making faces/rolling eyes/yelling... I just calmly said, "I'm not going to have this conversation with you if you can't ask respectfully." Then I'd leave.
6) position them to be successful. Don't let them make bad decisions to "learn a lesson." We don't put sweets in younger ds's lunch because he can't remember to eat healthier food first. We had a TV timer for years which shut off automatically after the kids reached their daily limit, so they didn't have to remember. Don't rely on willpower.

We didn't do a lot of punishments, to be honest. But we were pretty strict. I think that by making sure they made good decisions (sleeping, eating, planning homework, etc), we had fewer conflict. But, in the end, parenting really wasn't a democracy for us. I don't yell at or hit my dh or my kids, but I do tell my kids when to go to bed (at least at 6) and I let my dh decide for himself.
I also think SO much depends on the individual kid. We have one grown child with whom I've rarely if ever had a conflict. we have another who is that rare teenage boy who will come down to the kitchen at 6am and unload the dishwasher, start my coffee, and make his brother's lunch. Then... we also have our oldest, who routinely had little self control, argued a ton, and was overwhelmed by her emotions rather frequently. And we have our youngest, who although not as emotional, will often make bad decisions due to lack of self control. So, he logically knows that he should (do his homework/put his stuff away/go to bed etc) but he would have lacked the self control not to watch ESPN all night if we hadn't stepped in. Yes, some kids would catch on after being exhausted at school the next day, but believe me, not all. I think at 6, you want to limit the explanations and negotiations and conversations. Treat him well, treat him kindly, be specific, but be the parent. I don't think that what you need to do is very different for a PG kid, but you might be more likely to end up frustrated and exhausted. ;)(and btw, dd23 is now a wonderful, respectful, and kind daughter and sister... and youngest ds, now 11, actually turned OFF his favorite college bball team this weekend to do homework... enough guiding and helping and they eventually do catch on).
Good luck.

Just wanted to say thank you: to 1111 for bringing up the topic and to everyone else for their suggestions. Lots of good stuff we can use to freshen up our own interaction with DD11 (who's entering a new stage of hormone-induced defiance and stress).

Momtofour, I think lists will work with DS. He is very analytical. Great idea. I think I will have DH write a contract that DS and we will have to sign. Stating the rules and consequences.

I have stayed calm since posting this, but BOY, is it hard....

Things have been better the past few days. Maybe clearer expectations, maybe a different tone...not sure. But it is better.