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DS8 is PG and an autodidact.

He's also intensely independent. He sees everyone as a peer and resists presumed authority by any adult (including mom and dad) as unreasonable and unfair.

Like some teenagers, he values his personal freedom over his desire to please others.

Has anyone else experienced this with young PG kids and if so, have you found effective techniques to be a more effective parent (and teacher)?

As I write this and use the teenager analogy, I think it might help to take him on more camping trips and other outdoor adventures. These are situations where a child's natural dependence on adults rises rapidly to the surface.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

Reasoning, discussions of fairness, explanation of onus under the law and the option of withholding of a commodity my ds finds highly valuable that is inarguably my right to withhold: my attention.

Zen,

These are great suggestions!

The challenge is that DS8 can entertain himself for a seemingly unlimited period of time. He loves attention, but he loves self-determination even more.

Also, he learns from everything I do and has already learned that he can withhold his own attention from me. I don't want it to turn into a battle of who can ignore whom the longest.

DD8 is also intensely independent. I sometimes feel like I am living through the teenage years, now, too. She has never had a full IQ test, but the abbreviated test she has had gave numbers above the DYS minimum.

DD can entertain herself for very long periods of time (and was always extremely creative and never bored when amusing herself on time outs).

DD prefers her independence over her desire to please others.

I do not have any suggestions, but I, too, feel as though I could use some ideas about how to be more effective with such an independent young child.

Well, some aspects of being a child are seriously limiting in terms of self-sufficiency and autonomy.

After all, no matter how mature a PG child might be, they really do not possess the wisdom that ONLY comes with experiences. Mostly experiences that we wish we hadn't had-- if you see my point.

So ask yourself whether or not such a child could truly (for example) be entirely self-sufficient if lost on the subway... solicited by a child-predator... without cash and with no way home...

Can s/he cook and clean and pay bills for him/herself? Can s/he plan and budget for a home improvement project? Tell you how to maintain a car properly?

Kids need parents-- even PG ones who are autodidacts need them. Why? Because they are still children, in spite of the huge vocabulary and stunning ability to acquire information. Information and understanding isn't the same thing as good judgment.

This is where things like "NO, I won't stop playing video games and go to bed" comes from. Now, they may be right that they can function (minimally) at school just fine and never have their grades slip a bit with only 2-5 hours of sleep... but OTHER things would be problematic, and it's not good for development or social skills, certainly.

Kids are also much more self-centered than they will be when they are older. Ergo, it's unwise to hand them the reins when they basically make all of their decisions as little dictators.

THAT aspect of things is where "NO. You do not have the right to treat your parents as household servants" comes from.

Negotiate away-- by all means, in fact. But do remember that "Because I'm your Mom/Dad" is a completely valid reason for some things that they simply lack the life experience or maturity to understand. I quit talking at that point with my DD, and she's been like this since she was about four, too.

She gets it from me, btw.

Please accept my apologies as I have posted this resource previously therefore to some it may seem redundant and not freshly tailored to the question posed... and yet the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children can be so valuable.

One point in the book is that children are always motivated, however they may not be motivated toward the things which parents may wish they would be.

Keeping up with what currently motivates a child and dealing in the child's currency may help parents guide their children.

Because these kiddos may find schooling to be intellectually restrictive, they may be interested to get on with life beyond school. Although it may seem years away, parents may wish to look ahead into things like gap year programs, dual enrollment, and/or early college. Being prepared to help kiddos get their educational needs met when those needs may be outside the norm may be one way for parents to remain relevant and respected, and for the children to "just be kids" (that is, to be able to rely on adults). Possibly similar to the camping scenario mentioned by another poster?

These powerhouse kiddos may need and appreciate explanations on how the world works: how processes and procedures work in different organizations. This may help them see the value of certain rules. Having the information they require may help them plan their time, behavior, and studies to attain their goals. Essentially working to empower and guide them, not contain them, may be a beneficial approach.

Their questions may be along the lines of, "I can see it, but how do I get there from here?" For example, if s/he sees a judge and thinks s/he may want to be a judge someday... s/he may wish to visit a courtroom to see cases, and also learn the number of years of education required, the courses to be taken in college, what those courses consist of, how they relate to what s/he is learning now in elementary/middle/high school, etc. Parents may wish to be prepared to assist with researching college course catalogs.

For parents looking ahead to help kiddos who need educational experiences beyond the norm, The Davidson database provides guidebooks: http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/Article/Davidson_Young_Scholars___Guidebooks_375.aspx

Best wishes to all on this thread!

Something that has taught our son many life skills has been martial arts. He has learned so many things besides self-defense. He has learned seniority because belts are by rank. The longer, harder someone works, the higher they are ranked. Respect is earned. Every goal has steps to get there and builds upon the last. It's also not academic, so a PG kid can't blow through. It takes time, dedication and good coordination. It's just a suggestion that has worked well for us.

SynapticStorm, I have a 9 yr old dd who, although not PG, is profoundly intensely independent and fights authority from parents etc, seeing it as unreasonable and unfair. Although she is not an autodidact across-the-board she is possibly profoundly gifted in her ability to size up how to manipulate a situation with parents to simply make it seemingly impossible to deal with her

So... fwiw, my advice isn't worth much as this is something we have struggled with for years and continue to struggle with in parenting her, but these are the things that have helped some:

1) She will accept authority from the few people she chooses to - so we have her on a gymnastics team (her choice, and she loves it). Although she gets frustrated with them at times, she respects that her coaches are experts and will listen to what they say - and the cool thing about that is that on her gymnastics team (as well as on other sports teams as well as some group activity teams that my kids have participated in), the lessons taught and values that are talked about don't apply to just gymnastics, but to overall development and to life. So while she's at gymnastics she's also learning some life skills that are important at home and school and she's listening because she respects the authority of the coaches.

2) Church and Sunday School. I am not talking about one specific faith here - from what I've seen and experienced all religions have at their core the same essential set of ideas and values re how we treat other human beings. For all the lessons that my child *won't* listen to at home, she listens at church. This doesn't translate directly into good behavior at home, but it gives us, as parents, a talking point from which to start when we need to address behavior issues - we can substitute "because your parent says" with "because this is what God wants us to do" or "this is what God teaches". I am sure it wouldn't work for every stubborn child out there, but it works (somewhat) for our dd.

The key from our experience hasn't been so much having a gymnastics coach specifically or having God as our "go-to" as much as it is having some other authority figure, outside of parents, that our dd respects.

The other thing that has helped us is to simply ignore (as best we can) when she is in full-on raging-against-parents meltdowns, and talk it through with her *later* when she is calm. She is a personality that relies on logic to understand the world - although it can be a very twisted convoluted logic. When we do talk to her and try to reason with her, we approach it through her way of looking at things - logic. So wait for calm, and meet her where she's at in terms of how she tries to make sense of the world.


Our dd values her personal *desires* over desire to please others. In some ways, I feel like it's a bit of a developmental delay. Most kids typically go through a phase at around 6-7 years old where they discover in a meaningful way that they are separate individuals from their parents and that the world doesn't revolve around themselves as center of the universe. With my dd, I feel that she's still coping with that phase of moving from being the center of her own universe to realizing other people also have perfectly reasonable needs, desires, feelings etc. This comes out the most when she's upset - that inability to understand that her actions impact others feelings etc.


On the surface, I think this is a good idea. I have to chuckle though, because we are a family that camps a lot and does a lot of outdoor activities, and to be honest, for us, it's simply been one more place for dd to continue to prove that she doesn't need her parents for much of anything (in her mind lol). The one benefit to the outdoors however, is that when she screams in outrage, at least the neighbors don't have to listen

Best wishes,

polarbear

This is very helpful. Thank you, polarbear.

It's a great relief to know that others face similar challenges.

Last summer, we talked about each member of our extended family and DS8 identified expertise that each of them had from which he could learn. I think it was a good exercise and appeared to build respect for these individuals and others in general.

Perhaps I can try something similar, but cover more common adult vs. child skills.

It's hard for him to accept that experience alone makes someone a better decision maker. He has seen sufficient evidence in his life to know that isn't the case.

The lesson he hasn't yet learned is that everyone has strengths and he can learn to identify and respect those strengths. This will make it easier to respect and follow the lead of others and will also allow him to organize and lead effectively himself.

I use try to use humor as much as possible with our 2e/pg ds8. That helps.

We're un/homeschooling our ds8 too. He resists our authority (mine and dh) and everyone else's authority (ie. any therapists, swimming teacher, etc.). Ds spends lots of time reading on his own or puttering about at home. He is a self-directed, self-motivated learner too.

I'm very lucky because most of the therapists, who he's had, have had tons of experience in dealing with independent (not pg) kids like him who have physical issues (not cognitive ones!). I've been told numerous times not to push ds8 too much, but more to nudge him and try getting him to do things in a playful manner rather than in an authority style. They also have used humor as much as possible to get ds to cooperate. Ds8 doesn't want to swim and often resists anything physical because it's not always easy or fun for him to do (ie. he's got to put some effort and practice into it and isn't going to come automatically or naturally to him).

I've recently picked up the book, Smart but Scattered, again in attempt to work more with ds8 and the executive skills that are lacking. This entails task initiation (doing things you don't necessarily want to do), planning things out, sequencing, time management, etc. All those kinds of things usually don't happen overnight or without parental involvement.

I agree with HowlerKarma here that those skills need to be learnt and mastered for an 8-yr-old to become truly independent regardless if they're pg or not.

Not sure if my ds8 has learned that EVERYONE has strengths and weaknesses and that he can learn to identity and respect those strengths either. My son has always considered himself a leader and never a follower. This also poses a problem for him with playdates or other times when the situation should be more give and take from both parties. But I am working on him being a temporary follower and letting others have a turn being a leader. Not easy.

I hear you because my ex-husband and I are both extremely independent and adventurous and our two children are like that as well. They argue everything and no, never accept authority for what it is--even when pleasing people, they still think it's totally fine to argue their points.

I explain a lot of my responsibilities as a parent. I reason with them. There's never just, "No because I said so." At worst, I will say, "I am going to tell you now and explain later because this is something of an emergency."

Key points to most explanations:

--I pay for the insurance, and I can't afford more, so you have to live within my risk limits. When you show me that you have proof of six months' income to pay twice the dental insurance / health insurance / car insurance / life insurance / rental insurance, then we can talk about your trampoline-based obstacle course on the roof.

--We have a limited income. It's my responsibility to provide for you, but if that thing breaks, that comes out of our Christmas fund. End of story.

--I am obliged by LAW to (a) ensure you are in the care of an adult until you are at least eight, (b) send you to school or state our home/unschooling plan, (c) provide you with basic food, shelter, and clothing. That means I have to work and you have to go somewhere, which cannot be my work. Just not going is not an option, legally speaking. I have no choice. I will really, truly go to jail if we make a habit of me leaving you alone, or not going to work. And even supposing I was okay with that, who would take care of your sister? This is not a question of parental authority. It is civilization.

--You can fail all your classes. I'll just tell you what my mom told me: no way in heck am I having an 18-year-old do-nothing live here. I won't feel the slightest bit guilty if you leave this house and can't even get into community college and have to sleep on the couch of a drug dealer, because I am doing my best to support you in moving forward with any other effort-based option. Your choices affect your future.

And so on. My children hate getting lectured. They say to me, like I said to my mom, "Can I have a spanking instead? This hurts worse than a spanking."

I've offered both my children to move out (when they said it was so horrible here and nobody loved them, etc.), but they conceded that the tyranny of poverty was worse than the tyranny of "I am not paying for sugary cereals because I'm not paying for avoidable dental work or insulin." My older daughter was once offered the chance to canvas the neighborhood to see if she wanted another family (after threatening to run away, I said fine, go for it)... she said she did, but everyone said they didn't have any rooms left. She came back and we said we loved her and were glad she decided to make living in a family work.

I think you get the point. Ultimately, they do what we want because (a) we have all the money and (b) the free lunch runs out and we are the only ones who know how they can manage when that happens.



But we don't hesitate to explain this.

You mean after they are eight they can be home alone?

Obviously that's not an ideal situation for a child, but it's pretty common to have children from the upper-grades walk home to an empty house alone while their parents work, at least around here.

Truancy is another question. Without a proper homeschooling plan and progress towards it, the nine-year-old could not stay home alone during the school day.

But the point is not so much one age--it might differ by culture, state, country, whatever.

The point is that there are legal obligations I have towards my kids, and I'm not going to get caught neglecting them.

I don't say this to make them feel unloved. I try to buffer it with statements about how we're a family and we love and want them BUT supposing they don't accept that, well, it's not really an option, either.

It seems every SES has latch-key kids, those who come home to an empty house after school, and let themselves in with a key. Many children may call their parent(s) at work to check in upon arriving at home and locking the door. Many have a neighbor close by they may call on, and the neighbor may also check in on the child/ren at the parent's request. Kiddos are typically home for a short while before parent(s) arrive at home.

In some areas the age when a child may be left at home without supervision is twelve. Coincidentally this is the same age at which they may earn a Red Cross babysitting certificate and become responsible for other children; therefore some children babysit other children after school until parent(s) arrive home.

I just want to second the recommendation for martial arts, for several reasons:

* It's competitive, but the competition is primarily with yourself. And the hierarchy is based in knowledge and respect, it has a reason.
* It's athletic, but should have a calm focused aspect. It can help the shy child come out of their shell, the fidgety scattered child concentrate, the over-excitable child calm themselves, and the energetic child burn off some of that energy.
* It's more intellectual than some sports (there can be lessons and forms to learn, etc.) but a PG kid won't have an advantage just for being smart. What you get out of it really is directly proportional to what you put in (a lesson DD desperately needed to learn).
* It teaches conflict avoidance and resolution, as well as self-defense... highly independent children may need those skills sooner than others.

DD has been in martial arts since she was 4. When she got burned out on one style, we switched to another. She guides all the rest of her elective activities, but on this we insist... she will do martial arts regularly until she leave our home. The benefits to her emotional, social, and mental well-being have been enormous.

As an aside, if you look for a dojo avoid the following: places with long contracts and expensive uniforms, places that charge money to test your child (and test frequently), places that are only about fighting, places that don't feel both calm and energetic. I recommend looking for smaller dojos and avoiding large franchised chains. The teachers should command respect just by standing there. The actual type or form matters less.

Establishing yourself as a reliable authority figure in your child's life isn't just a matter of protecting them from the effects of poor judgement. It's also VITAL to your child's psychological/emotional health. HG+ children particularly are going to notice that the world is a scary place, with many potential hazards and pitfalls. It's a constant source of anxiety if the child feels like the parent can't protect them from that, or exercise sound judgement. Sometimes what seems like defiance is a child's poor understanding of the consequences of their actions, but it can also be a child expressing their anxiety, and they need a parental response that indicates, "Relax. I can handle this."

I'm not sure that oppositional behavior and bonding/attachment can be teased apart, because there is so much overlap. A child with a very strong bond with their parent will be less oppositional because they value their parent so much... oppositional behavior, on the other hand, will have a negative impact on the bond, for both the parent and the child. So the best advice I could give on this is, play with your child. Every day, if you can manage it. I'm convinced this is the single biggest reason why my DD9 isn't a hellion.

As for discipline, our approach is similar to binip's. We are open to discussing why we've made any decisions, though sometimes we need DD9 to comply now, we'll explain later. We also tell her some things she's just not equipped to understand yet, so just trust us for now. Because we're so forthcoming in nearly all situations, she mostly accepts on those exceptions.

Otherwise, we'll let her ask and argue away, and address her points as age-appropriate. Sometimes, once we've explained our concerns, she proposes an alternative which satisfies those while still getting her what she wants, and we're happy to accept those proposals. Many times she accepts our rationale and that's the end of it. And of course, sometimes she's just going to protest, so once it gets to the point where she's arguing in a circle or just being contrary, we tell her that's enough, the decision has been made, and she knows any further protest will only result in her losing privileges.

We've also explained our parental responsibilities towards her, though we present it in a more positive framework than binip presents here. We explain to DD that she has certain rights that NOBODY is allowed to take from her, including us, and that therefore there are certain areas in which we are simply not allowed to negotiate or give ground. So no, she's not allowed to stay up as late as she wants because she has a right to good health and a good education, both of which would be impaired by lack of adequate sleep. We are highly respectful of her rights because we love her and want the best for her. Parents who fail to respect the rights of their children find themselves in jail, and their children get sent to live with other parents.

Anything that she enjoys which isn't a protected right is a privilege, and all privileges come from parents. We are very happy to provide her with as many privileges as practicable, because we love her and want her to be happy. But we also need certain things from her, including compliance to our reasonable requests, and we can withdraw privileges whenever we're not getting what we need.

I agree COMPLETELY with that statement. YES.


The rest of it is very similar to our strategy here, as well-- though I have to say that DD simply has a rather oppositional/contrarian streak in her personality, and no amount of loving/careful parenting is enough to negate that fact.

They really are just all a bit different from one another.

This is my greatest challenge as a parent, actually-- it's not really a desire for autonomy, even, more of a power struggle that is ongoing and continuous, and began when my (very well-attached) DD was about a year old. My devotion and love for her creates a bedrock that allows her to build this kind of experimental space atop it-- and (unfortunately for me) this is her interpersonal test lab. {sigh}


One other thought that dovetails with binip and Dude both is that I have over the years learned to signal to DD when things are open for discussion and when they are not. She's gotten good at figuring out when things are open for negotiation. It's definitely not all my way or the highway-- and never has been. On the other hand, she has to also learn that sometimes people have authority over us that is primarily derived from circumstances beyond anyone's control, and certainly isn't based in "earned respect" from much of anyone... but that those individuals in particular ought to be handled gingerly, because they can CERTAINLY dole out punishment for lack of respect/compliance from those they have power over.

The IRS agent who comes knocking on your door, the TSA agent at the airport... yeah-- they may make totally irrational and intrusive demands of you, and honestly-- it's in your own best interests to just grin and bear it with a high degree of cooperation. Arguing with a cop over a speeding ticket when s/he is having a REALLY bad day... is not going to go anywhere good. No matter how justified you feel.

For a kid like my DD... this is a lesson she must learn. MUST learn.

I've seen what it leads to (in extended family, with a significant N, tyvm) if that particular lesson is neglected. Not pretty.

"though we present it in a more positive framework than binip presents here."

Haha, didn't mean to come off so negative. We do say positive things--but when a child insists that you don't know what you're talking about so she's leaving, you are sorely tempted to let her see how that works out!

I agree that there needs to be a positive side to it as well, such as letting them take control of things, do chores, etc.

And sometimes I will "give up" and say, "You know what? It's me who needs a clean house to function, it's me who hates it when we're late to school, so I'm going to clean your room this week because it's me who doesn't feel like overseeing it and I don't feel like bribing you with an allowance."

Sometimes they're like, "YAY MOM THANKS!!!" (This week.

Sometimes they're like, "NO! We can do it! We want an allowance!"

Sometimes they ask me to do it for them and I say "No, I have the energy to do my parental duty and enforce your cleaning of your room. I'm okay with staying inside all day to follow up on it. You need to learn what is acceptable when you live with other people and that's my job."

Then we might just stay inside all day. I tell them to organize the cleaning, they whine, I explain why, they whine, I tell them what the consequences will be, they whine, I explain that they have 30 minutes, and leave. Rinse, repeat until the room is clean or everything goes in big black garbage bags for storage 30 minutes before bedtime because that is what happens when you don't fulfill your obligations to your roomies. Nobody should have to live like that.

A little choice goes a long way. We try to present all consequences like choices: "You don't HAVE to take off your shoes when you come in the house, but if you don't, then you need to sweep every night instead of playing games or reading. What, you don't like sweeping? That's fine. Then take off your shoes."

Sadly they are smarter than us and frequently insist on a third choice which is something more like, "I know. How about you do all the work and I have all the fun? How about THAT option?"

Which brings us back to, "I have all the money and you have nothing."

And as a former "gifted child" I can tell you I wasn't worried about my mom handling it. I just thought that I knew everything, she was a little stupid (she is not stupid, she's very smart, great at her job and was a great, great mom), and that the world was too small and unimportant for me to deal with 'petty' things like cleaning my room or doing handwriting worksheets. In short, I was a little poop. I don't imagine that my children's defiance comes from another, more sensitive place, particularly not the little one, who is just as much of a stinker as I was.

Yeah, I figured there's a lot more nuance going on, which is why I used the word "presents" there.

We've solved a couple of those problems you mentioned differently. DD's allowance isn't tied to chores, but if we have to clean up after her, her stuff ends up in the garage for a lot longer... think a week or two. Whining costs her a dollar. DW tortures her over it, too: "Are you whining? Because we're going on a trip soon and I could use the extra money."

I appreciate your largesse in interpreting my posts... usually written after wine in the evening.

I think we'd have two kids flat broke within a day if we used that method... they don't get a regular allowance (we have a contract labor system) so they don't always save. But you've given me an idea...

"Are you whining? Because we're going on a trip soon and I could use the extra money."


ROFL! This so sounds like things I've said.

This sounds eerily familiar. With DD, what I encounter seems deeply rooted in temperament. She is a very CURIOUS child and I indeed seem to be her "test lab." When an issue is not up for debate, I am actually much firmer with my DD than I am with my younger DS, because of their different temperaments. If I show any sign of "weakness" in my discussions with her, she will take this as a signal that an issue is up for debate (if you give her an inch...). DS has been raised almost the same way as DD and simply does not question authority the way DD does - they are wired completely differently this way. DD simply has a much stronger drive to have things go exactly her way. She sees no need to do things as others have (or as they have suggested) - she has her own "vision." It can be extremely difficult to divert her from that. She is NOT a follower. But, unfortunately, she doesn't always appreciate being led (which is, obviously, sometimes necessary).

Overall, I feel as though I need to be much "stronger" with DD to enforce my point than I'd like to be. Sometimes, explaining "why" a rule is necessary just leads her to then conclude that it must then be negotiable. Still, we have had lengthy discussions about "why" various rules exist when not in the heat of the moment. Sometimes, though, less talk is better.

So interesting to hear the experiences of others - thank you!

YES YES YES.

I had a near phobia of people with excessive opinions of their authority when I was in my twenties, particularly like rent-a-cops with guns. Worried that they would accuse me of something incorrect and I would argue with them to the point of them getting angry and pulling their gun. Then I figured my worrying about that would make me look suspicious, etc.