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    #183650 - 03/03/14 01:14 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4300
    Quote:
    Reflecting on my own history, there are points where it would have been very helpful if somebody had raised certain considerations that I was unaware of at the time.
    Agreed. The existence of sayings like "Hindsight is 20/20", and people frequently speaking of "if I knew then what I know now... !", indicates this may be common.

    It seems there are so many more options today and kids may sample a broader array of interests while discovering the areas in which they most enjoy immersing themselves. Finding opportunities for building a progression of skills and abilities in one or more areas of intense personal interest can be an almost overwhelming prospect. This may be exacerbated for gifted girls, as indicated by articles recently published online: Analyses of web search results described that more searches were done for son/gifted and daughter/weight, indicating that girls may have an uphill climb if parents may be focused on different attributes of "success" for girls.

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    #183654 - 03/03/14 05:06 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2597
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: JonahSinick

    There may be important considerations in favor of spelling bees that I'm missing, and I'd be interested in hearing any. I recognize that gifted children are often involved in spelling bees, and that there may be social benefits to being involved even if the activity isn't the most valuable in the abstract.

    In recent years, spelling and geography bees have been dominated by Indians. When the winners are asked about their future career plans in media interviews, they often mention medicine. Medical school and pre-med classes require a lot of memorization. I decided against being a pre-med in part because I disliked the memorization in my 12th-grade anatomy and physiology class.

    Lots of doctors in the U.S. are Indian, some having grown up here, some in India. I think Indians may do well in spelling and geography bees and in medicine because they are willing to do the intellectual grunt work of memorization.

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    #183659 - 03/03/14 06:43 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    ultramarina Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 3423
    I am a former National Spelling Bee contestant. (The bee was less serious back then and I didn't study very much, but anyway.) I think the environment and prep is useful in the same way that any kind of elite competition is useful. Regardless, you get to the Bee by winning one smaller bee after another. I'm not sure Val's daughter set out to do it from the start as much as she has proven that she is highly competent and now is challenging herself to go farther. That's what happened with me, anyway--and I would certainly have been gobsmacked if someone had suggested that I stop. I got a free trip to DC out of it, after all, and it was a nice experience.

    As I say, I did not study very much (I was a young competitor--only 11--and lacked discipline), but since school was easy for me at the time, I can't see how it would have harmed me and would likely have been good for me. OTOH, my parents left it up to me, which I respect. I did not do well, but knew that was my own doing. I was regionally competitive, but not nationally.

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    #183667 - 03/03/14 07:39 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    ultramarina Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 3423
    There was some research showing that female teachers' math insecurities are passed on to girls but not to boys due to gender role modeling. There's the interesting double-edged sword here in that boys and men are often inaccurately overconfident (girls and women being the opposite, but I think their estimates are closer to their actual ability). I am not a fan of blind overconfidence--I think it does much evil in the world--but OTOH, I am obviously not a fan of underconfidence, either.

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    #183678 - 03/03/14 09:07 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I'm convinced that imposter syndrome is a result of girls who try to fit into normative girl culture when it isn't who they actually are. "Being smart" is never part of that normative culture, which is profoundly about appearance and being non-threatening and sexually appealing to others.


    I'm not sure anyone "fits" into normative girl culture without significant effort to conform to it, and I'm convinced that it's toxic to anyone.

    Ditto normative boy culture. Both are toxic, just in different ways. We're basically talking about people trying to fit into stereotypes, and that's never fun.

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    #183681 - 03/03/14 09:18 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    ultramarina Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 3423
    I agree with Dude.

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    #183685 - 03/03/14 09:48 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: ultramarina]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Well-stated, Dude.

    My DD is particularly lucky that she has two parents who have bucked the traditional gender stereotypes by BREAKING them completely-- me being a super-smart woman who dumbs down for nobody and actively punishes anyone that treats me like an airhead (oh, I'm socially appropriate, but nobody does it to me twice)-- and a dad that broke the "dumb jock" mold, and turned down a full football scholarship to major in a STEM field instead, and who loves the fine arts. So it's healthier than outright "rejection" in that we still do things that might be considered conforming (DH likes cop shows and sports and I sew and knit), but only on our terms.



    Originally Posted By: ultramarina
    I am a former National Spelling Bee contestant. (The bee was less serious back then and I didn't study very much, but anyway.) I think the environment and prep is useful in the same way that any kind of elite competition is useful. Regardless, you get to the Bee by winning one smaller bee after another. I'm not sure Val's daughter set out to do it from the start as much as she has proven that she is highly competent and now is challenging herself to go farther. That's what happened with me, anyway--and I would certainly have been gobsmacked if someone had suggested that I stop. I got a free trip to DC out of it, after all, and it was a nice experience.

    As I say, I did not study very much (I was a young competitor--only 11--and lacked discipline), but since school was easy for me at the time, I can't see how it would have harmed me and would likely have been good for me. OTOH, my parents left it up to me, which I respect. I did not do well, but knew that was my own doing. I was regionally competitive, but not nationally.



    Same here-- I read widely (being an introverted only child and HG+ one) and it was effortless to qualify at the state level. Truly. smile It was just fun. I tanked when it started feeling like being under a microscope-- wasn't my thing to seek the limelight, even then.



    Edited by HowlerKarma (03/03/14 09:51 AM)
    _________________________
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    #183692 - 03/03/14 10:27 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    JonahSinick Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/28/13
    Posts: 51
    @ Bostonian — I couldn't tell from your comment whether you think that the correlation between spelling bee performance and going into / succeeding in medicine is causal...is that what you meant?

    @ ultramarine — Thanks for sharing your experience! Looking back over the different extracurriculars that you were involved with, does participation in the National Spelling Bee stand out as among the best, or are there others that you found more enriching and/or enjoyable?

    As for girls/women assessing their abilities more accurately than boys/men, this may be true in general, but I think that it's less likely to be true for gifted populations. I've seen a number of examples of gifted girls/women underestimate their intelligence by ~1 standard deviation (~15 IQ points) roughly speaking, and fewer instances of gifted boys/men overestimating their intelligence by ~1 standard deviation.

    @ master of none — I'm glad to hear that things have been going better, and am sympathetic. Has she thought about going to a math camp for middle school students like MathPath (where I worked for three summers)? A lot of the girls there had very good experiences meeting other girls who share their interests. Art of Problem Solving also has some very mathematically talented girls.
    _________________________
    Advising for gifted children available at Cognito Mentoring.

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    #183693 - 03/03/14 10:41 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: Dude]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    Ditto normative boy culture. Both are toxic, just in different ways. We're basically talking about people trying to fit into stereotypes, and that's never fun.


    I think that some people like fitting in.

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    #183694 - 03/03/14 10:41 AM Re: Underconfidence in gifted girls [Re: JonahSinick]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2597
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: JonahSinick
    @ Bostonian — I couldn't tell from your comment whether you think that the correlation between spelling bee performance and going into / succeeding in medicine is causal...is that what you meant?

    I am speculating that people who train hard and do well in spelling bees gain confidence in their ability to memorize and to retain what they have memorized. This prepares them for subjects requiring memorization.

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