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    #180363 - 01/23/14 10:13 PM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Quote:

    Wealth at the very top has little to do with college, a job, or anything we've discussed in this thread so far


    On this much, we are absolutely agreed.

    I don't think that a discussion including wealth distribution adds much to this particular topic, myself.

    I mean, sure-- wealth disparity impacts college choices, and "free college" very definitely benefits some students disproportionately, but that wasn't the gist of the more recent observations.


    Edited by HowlerKarma (01/23/14 10:15 PM)
    Edit Reason: add clarification
    _________________________
    SchrŲdinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #181270 - 02/03/14 05:56 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Wren]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2638
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    You leave this topic for 24 hours and pages are written.

    No one said that the arts were not important, but we were talking about job prospects. And if you saw the recent jobs report, they are disappearing rapidly.

    Who is suppose to subsidize your kid during and after school because they wanted to learn to be a creative thinker and then let someone else get creative after he/she graduates on how they should put that creative talent to use?

    Now with all the creative talent you learned in school, you should come up with a good answer. I, who took engineering, think practically. Job prospects = tuition subsidies. If you want something that doesn't link into job prospects, pay your own way.

    And that is the way I was brought up in my middle class neighborhood in Canada. The fathers fought in WW2, got educated, bought a home, had kids and told us that we go to college to get a job, like they did, 95% of whom were engineers. And the kids did. They became engineers, doctors, dentists, physical therapists, accountants. Or, if college didn't work for them, they got a trade like boiler maker, pipe fitter, electrician. I do not know anyone I went to high school that thought about going to get a liberal arts degree to learn to be creative. And even my school roommate, who now has a MFA, chairs the art department at a high school because it pays the mortgage. Practical education.


    The author of this article thinks employers ought to be more flexible, but the story does not paint a rosy picture for recent liberal arts grads and confirms what Wren wrote.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/02/jobs/reopening-an-employment-door-to-the-young.html
    Reopening an Employment Door to the Young
    By ROBERT W. GOLDFARB
    New York Times
    February 1, 2014

    Quote:
    Over the last few years, Iíve interviewed more than 200 young people from diverse backgrounds of income, education, race and geography. About half told me that they had liberal arts degrees, and I was struck by how many of them regretted majoring in a discipline now seen as impractical.

    Many liberal-arts graduates say they are eager to find an employer willing to train them in skills that donít require a degree in engineering or computer science. They cite six-sigma analysis, supply-chain procedures, customer service, inventory control, quality assurance and Internet marketing. They want a chance to master one of those skills.

    But their pleas appear unlikely to be answered. Most corporate training today is directed at employees who arrive with technical skills already developed ó if not through their college degrees, then though specialized internships.

    This puts a large swath of young people at a disadvantage. Burdened with tuition debt, many college graduates from low- and middle-income families canít afford to serve a low-paying or unpaid internship.

    Iíve been consulting for more than four decades. Twenty or 30 years ago, a hiring manager at a Fortune 500 company was much more willing to give, say, a dance major a chance. That manager would realize that such graduates were good at teamwork, acquiring new skills and practicing for long hours. Give them some corporate training and they become productive employees, was the thinking.

    Now, because of a relentless focus on specialized skills, too many young people are missing out on a rite of passage: getting to a job on time, learning a craft, assuming responsibility, bringing home a paycheck. The unemployment rate for people age 20 to 24 is 11 percent, compared with an overall rate that is under 7 percent.

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    #181274 - 02/03/14 06:39 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: article
    Give them some corporate training and they become productive employees, was the thinking.


    Yes, but these days the large corporations that are run by people who are invested in long-term outcomes are few and far between. It's all about quick wins, which is why they're no longer thinking about providing corporate training. Cutting the training budget is a quick win.

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    #181282 - 02/03/14 07:14 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2638
    Loc: MA
    Many young people may not need 4 years of college after 12 years of grade school to become productive. Increased tax funding of existing universities and heavy-handed regulation (see story below) may crowd out faster and cheaper (in terms of cumulative cost if not cost-per-semester) alternatives to the BA.

    Crackdown on Coding Academies
    By Doug Lederman
    Inside Higher Education
    February 3, 2014
    SAN FRANCISCO -- A new type of educational provider has quietly sprung up in San Francisco and several other major cities, providing specialized training in computer coding and other skills that are in great demand from technology companies and other entrepreneurs.
    And, a bit belatedly, government regulators are noticing, agitating some of the providers and highlighting anew the tension between educational innovation and government regulation aimed at protecting consumers and ensuring quality.
    The issue flared last week in California, where the Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education -- which licenses educational entities to operate, as part of the state's Department of Consumer Affairs -- sent letters warning as many as eight "coding academies" and other training providers that they were operating in violation of state law and threatening fines and potential shutdown if they do not apply for state recognition.
    Russ Heimerich, a spokesman for the bureau, said that in the agency's continuing hunt for "unlicensed activity" by providers that "don't have good intentions for students," one of its enforcement specialists -- in a bit of "serendipity" -- recently came across an article about the coding academies, which began popping up two years ago to feed the explosive appetite of technology companies here and in some other high-tech corridors around the country.
    The startups -- which include places like App Academy, Dev Bootcamp, General Assembly, Hack Reactor, Hackbright Academy, and Zipfian Academy -- offer intensive, full-time, short-term training programs in computer languages and other programming skills designed to lead directly to jobs. The fees are often steep -- typically between $8,000 and $12,000 for a six- to 10-week course -- and are paid directly by the students, since the classes and programs (which do not award degrees) do not qualify for federal or state financial aid.

    Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/...g#ixzz2sGoitRle
    Inside Higher Ed

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    #181286 - 02/03/14 07:51 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4959
    Yes, corporate short-term thinking and looking for the quick temporary win affects training and may also impact the length of careers as noted in an article linked within the article:
    Originally Posted By: article
    Financially struggling boomers fill many of the jobs that young people once assumed would be theirs. And according to a recent poll
    Originally Posted By: linked article (recent poll)
    About three-quarters of respondents said they have given their retirement years some or a great deal of thought. When considering factors that are very or extremely important in their retirement decisions, 78 percent of workers cited financial needs... and 67 percent said their need for employer benefits such as health insurance.
    ...
    "Many people had experienced a big downward movement in their 401k plans, so they're trying to make up for that period of time when they lost money,"
    ...
    Originally Posted By: paraphrasing
    Even though baby boomers as a whole may plan or hope to work longer, many are without jobs due to corporate cutbacks and lack of success in job searches after being displaced.
    ...
    one-third of retired survey respondents said they did not stop working by choice
    ...
    Eight percent say they were forced from a job because of their age.
    ...
    So almost a decade sooner than expected, he retired. "It came sooner than I was hoping," he said. "The economy doesn't need me, so I guess I'll just retire."
    ...
    "I sure would like to work," she said. "I enjoy being with people. I enjoy having the income."
    ...
    "Retirement is not going to be comfortable. It's going to be hard."

    University tuition which is "free at point of service" and funded by taxes paid throughout the lifespan may add fuel to a debate which has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants) may be viewed differently depending upon SES.

    In a shrinking economy, more families may be drawn to vocational training for employment in manual tasks which cannot be easily outsourced, providing a semblance of job security, financial stability, and more control over career length.

    It may bear repeating that some may wonder what has spurred the rapid increase in University tuition. Funding research? Shifting costs to some students in order to subsidize others? Paying out lifetime retirement benefits? The most effective answers to controlling costs of higher education may be in identifying the areas of cost growth, prior to considering how growing costs might be funded. As with gifted students, each institution may have a unique profile, and therefore a unique approach, rather than a one-size-fits-all policy.

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    #181287 - 02/03/14 08:02 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4959
    Originally Posted By: article, Crackdown on Coding Academies
    The fees are often steep -- typically between $8,000 and $12,000 for a six- to 10-week course -- and are paid directly by the students, since the classes and programs (which do not award degrees) do not qualify for federal or state financial aid.
    Some may say "buyer beware", as 6 to 10 weeks is often not enough time to become adept in coding a new language. Families may wish to see the job placement stats before signing up for such a course or camp.

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    #181290 - 02/03/14 08:34 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: indigo]
    Dude Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/11
    Posts: 2856
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    Some may say "buyer beware", as 6 to 10 weeks is often not enough time to become adept in coding a new language. Families may wish to see the job placement stats before signing up for such a course or camp.


    This is a solid argument for "heavy-handed regulation," as it has been polemically called. The umbrella of regulation in this case serves the interests of the marketplace, because the existence of an accountability measure improves consumer confidence in the product, and boosts its market value. "Buyer beware" becomes "buyer aware."

    The amount of money we're talking about here is a good incentive for fraud, and you can be sure there are fraudsters working the same sector as those offering a genuine article.

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    #181301 - 02/03/14 12:20 PM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4959
    Consumers sharing information, informally and through consumer organizations, may also help "buyer beware" become "buyer aware", independent of regulation.

    To stay on topic, contemplating a policy of University tuition which is "free at point of service" and funded by taxes paid throughout the lifespan may inspire questions as to what has spurred the rapid increase in University tuition: Funding research? Shifting costs to some students in order to subsidize others? Paying out lifetime retirement benefits? The most effective answers to controlling costs of higher education may be in identifying the areas of cost growth, prior to considering how growing costs might be funded. As with gifted students, each institution may have a unique profile, and therefore a unique approach, rather than a one-size-fits-all policy.

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    #181303 - 02/03/14 01:00 PM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: indigo]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3296
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    questions as to what has spurred the rapid increase in University tuition: Funding research? Shifting costs to some students in order to subsidize others? Paying out lifetime retirement benefits? The most effective answers to controlling costs of higher education may be in identifying the areas of cost growth, prior to considering how growing costs might be funded. As with gifted students, each institution may have a unique profile, and therefore a unique approach, rather than a one-size-fits-all policy.


    IMO (and I believe there is some evidence to support this opinion), the easy availability of credit (student loans) is a huge factor in the costs going up. Turn off the tap, and the costs will likely go down.

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    #181313 - 02/03/14 02:20 PM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Val]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    questions as to what has spurred the rapid increase in University tuition: Funding research? Shifting costs to some students in order to subsidize others? Paying out lifetime retirement benefits? The most effective answers to controlling costs of higher education may be in identifying the areas of cost growth, prior to considering how growing costs might be funded. As with gifted students, each institution may have a unique profile, and therefore a unique approach, rather than a one-size-fits-all policy.


    IMO (and I believe there is some evidence to support this opinion), the easy availability of credit (student loans) is a huge factor in the costs going up. Turn off the tap, and the costs will likely go down.


    But it's so much fun to poof massive amounts of debt into existence!

    It's like magic!

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