Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.


Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 176 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Clara Tim, markhogue, John Henderson, wm97, oliviazimmerman
    10844 Registered Users
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2 3
    4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    11 12 13 14 15 16 17
    18 19 20 21 22 23 24
    25 26 27 28 29 30 31
    Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
    Topic Options
    #177244 - 12/14/13 09:54 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    blackcat Offline

    Registered: 05/23/13
    Posts: 2154
    Have you looked into non-verbal learning disability? That's the only other thing I can think of. DS's scores were similar in that everything was around 110-115 EXCEPT for perceptual reasoning which was in the 140's. On achievement testing, he is advanced in everything, but esp. math, which is over the 99.9th percentile. So he is the opposite in that verbal is much lower than PR.

    No explanation for our WISC gap either, and the neuropsych didn't seem too concerned.

    #177245 - 12/14/13 10:41 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    Pemberley Offline

    Registered: 08/07/11
    Posts: 734
    My DD has similar scatter. Her verbal did not test as high as your DD but she has 40+ points difference between verbal and visual perception and 50+ to both working memory and processing speed. She also has a significant fine motor deficit. I endorse blackcat in suggesting you look at non-verbal learning disability as my DD was labeled "NLD-ish" with this profile. My DD doesn't have the social component but the neuropsych said it was "a useful diagnostic concept" and "easier than saying super high verbal along with dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, math disability, etc."

    You are not alone. My DD loves, loves, loves audio books though and finished all 7 Harry Potter books by the time she was seven. In second grade we started her on "enrichment/anxiety breaks" to listen to high level texts like Dickens, Twain, etc. She loves to discuss books at a higher level - character development, motivation, references to Greek mythology or comparisons to other texts, etc, but she didn't have the opportunity. She would just listen in the resource room and head back down the hall to her 2nd grade classroom where she was treated as "the little special ed girl". So sad. She is now in an out of district placement, though, and as part of her 3rd grade curriculum she gets to join the 8th grade reading group for her comprehension component. She is so much happier...

    I will send you a PM. Click on the flashing envelope on the top of the page.

    #177248 - 12/14/13 11:15 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    polarbear Offline

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3363
    Originally Posted By: Lupine

    I actually think the dyslexia diagnosis is dead on; I've had suspicions of it for years and was told "it's too early to tell".

    If you've suspected dyslexia for years, I'd suggest following up this eval with a reading specialist. As gabalyn mentioned, dyslexia is not typically diagnosed from ability/achievement testing alone - when my dd with reading challenges was assessed (more than once by different professionals) there was a checklist of criteria that included different types of tests/assessments and a certain # of criteria had to be met to be diagnosed. There are many different types of reading assessments that can be very useful in determining how to approach remediation for the reading challenge. If your dd has a reading challenge (which it sounds like she does), you'll want to know as much about the root causes as you can in order to make a plan forward for remediation and accommodation.

    She's NOT a fan of audio books

    I don't know anything about audio challenges, but I wonder if there's a reason related to comprehension while listening to books that makes her not a fan? So so so very many kids I've known really love audiobooks, and they opened up the world to my dd who has a reading challenge.

    I wonder if there was an issue with auditory processing if that might have impacted her PRI score also? One thing that was helpful for me in understanding the scatter in my 2e childrens' WISC scores was to look at how each subtest was administered - what type of question, was the question oral or did they have to read or look at the question, did they answer orally or have to write, was the subtest timed etc. It's possible if you look at that you may see a pattern that might help understand what's going on with the scores and with reading.

    I'm also just curious if you saw scatter in the PRI subtest scores and if so how much and which were higher vs lower?

    so the school's suggestion that I offer her audio books so she can continue to explore ideas at her interest and comprehension level without needing to read them while a reasonable suggestion isn't going to help. I don't want her to feel totally overwhelmed with the academic support work for the areas she struggles AND with enrichment stuff.

    When our 2e children were young, it was *really* important to focus on the challenge part of the e for awhile, and it came at the expense of some of the enrichment they could have received for their strengths had they not been 2e. I am not saying *don't* push for academic challenges in your dd's areas of strength - push for all that you can - but wanted you to know that it's (jmo) very important to get the challenge figured out so that it can be remediated/accommodated appropriately so that your child will be able to "take off" once they get past the early challenge. It really did happen for my ds - all the focus on his challenge in elementary made it possible for him to be in a position to be successfully accelerated once he was in upper elementary and middle school. Had we changed out the balance and not put in the large effort on the challenge, I doubt he would have been able to keep up with the workload demand (not the intellectual piece, the part of each class that calls on the areas he was challenged in (written expression for ds). Had that happened, he would have been thousands of time more frustrated than he was in elementary school dealing with not having fully appropriate academic enrichment in elementary school.

    Best wishes,


    #177251 - 12/14/13 11:54 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: polarbear]
    puffin Offline

    Registered: 12/11/12
    Posts: 2035
    My kids aren't a fan of audio books either. They like to be read to however so I think it is more that they feel fobbed off with audio books. Have you tried listening with her while snuggling on the couch?

    #180860 - 01/29/14 06:58 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    Lupine Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/13/13
    Posts: 6
    So I wanted to come back and touch base on this.

    Thank you for all you input.

    We had her vision checked and she is farsighted, has convergence insufficiency and sees double. She now has glasses and a weekly appt. for vision therapy and after about a month of treatment there is some mild improvement in her eye turnout.

    I showed the scores to my shrink, who is also a pediatric and adolescent neuropsych, and he said something like, "this is classic non-verbal learning disability but the school can't diagnose it because all they have is a school psych and you need a clinical psych to make a diagnosis" along with "anyone who knows what they are looking at seeing these scores knows this is not a normal brain. Brains are not supposed to work like this." and "long term you are probably going to need an advocate to sit in on meetings with you." The good news is he confirmed my town is one of the best in the area for meeting needs of special needs kids; it's the gifted portion that we're going to have to fight for when we get there.

    She is on the wait list for the developmental pediatrician.

    Audio books are apparently acceptable if they are Harry Potter. It's non-stop Harry Potter all the time in our house now.

    So we are making slow and steady progress.

    #181036 - 01/30/14 10:12 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    cathy m Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/18/13
    Posts: 28
    What kind of test is Perceptual Reasoning? I have a Concept Formation category from the Woodcock Johnson test. Is this similar? Just wondering what that means.

    #181043 - 01/30/14 11:05 AM Re: High VCI, Low PRI on Wisc4 / Dyslexia [Re: Lupine]
    polarbear Offline

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3363
    Lupine - did you see a large scatter in your dd's PRI subtests? I'm wondering if the relatively low score might be related to a vision issue. Our dd who has vision issues had a really *really* low score on one of the PRI subtests before we knew she had vision issues (that low score, combined with a really *really* low Symbol Search score under Processing Speed) were what keyed the neuropsych into her issues with vision. I'm sorry I can't remember which PRI subtest it was!

    DD hasn't been retested on the WISC since her vision therapy but if she was retested, I suspect that the two subtests that were dramatically impacted by her vision issues came up to the range of her other subtest scores (that weren't heavily dependent on vision), and that in turn would most likely bring her PRI and PSI scores up into the range of her VIQ. I'm sorry I don't have her test results in front of me at the moment so I can't tell you the extent of the difference in subtest scores, but I believe it was almost 4 SD.

    Best wishes,


    Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    Full time in person learning-accommodati
    on for ADD

    by aeh
    Yesterday at 12:28 PM
    Grading practices
    by aeh
    10/18/20 12:49 PM
    The Politics of Gifted Education
    by Eagle Mum
    10/18/20 05:42 AM
    How can teachers challenge a more academically adv
    by Kai
    10/17/20 07:16 PM
    Montessori vs. dedicated gifted school
    by ojojojoj
    10/14/20 09:28 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter