Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links
DITD Logo

Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 92 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    sreedevi9, agen, Postini, Phaedenit, babyrazia
    10900 Registered Users
    January
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Page 21 of 36 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 35 36 >
    Topic Options
    #179660 - 01/15/14 11:24 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Old Dad]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Old Dad
    Average credit card debt: $15,270
    Average mortgage debt: $149,925
    Average student loan debt: $32,258

    If that's not people getting things they can't yet afford I don't know how else I can possibly convince you.


    I agree about the student loan debt; I think that part of the point of this thread addresses that question.

    (CC debt is OT, but, average debt is driven up by a small number of people who have very high debt; I'd like to see the median and the SD (if the distribution is normal? Dunno.). More importantly, a large chunk of credit card debt is medical bills and other basic expenses like rent and food. For example, this story in the NY Times breaks it down. The idea that CC debt is exclusively (or even mostly) about buying luxury goods is a myth.)

    I don't think that yoking students to large debt is healthy for the nation as a whole. IMO, the easy availability of credit is an important factor driving up college costs (they raise tuition because the loans will just poof the money into existence and the loan won't even go away if the student dies). At the same time, tightening the requirements for getting a loan is also bad, because the poor and lower middle class students will be shut out. IMO, the solution is to cut the costs and make college affordable to people who work a summer job and maybe a part-time job during term (though I'd prefer that everyone could study without working more than ~10 hours per week so that they can focus on, you know, studying.). You know, like things mostly were in the 80s or so and earlier.

    Top
    #179661 - 01/15/14 11:31 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: chay]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: chay
    I'm not in the U.S. so I have little knowledge of your system admissions requirements. Since there have been a number of references to raising admission standards I'm curious, what are the requirements for a mid level college? (I'm not talking Ivy League or Community College but say something where you could get an Engineering degree with a decent chance of getting a job in an average economy as an example)


    This is a question which is easily answered in looking at College Board's college listings--

    while this doesn't address what MINIMUMS are for that type of school, you can certainly take a look at what averages are for matriculating students.

    https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search

    A lot of state flagships will admit mostly students who have SAT's well under 500 (Math and/or Reading), and don't even LOOK at what writing scores are.

    ________________________________________________

    Old Dad, many of us have indicated that "completely free" probably isn't good, either. I happen to be in that particular camp myself. Surprising, I know, given how moderate-to-liberal most of my framework and worldview tends to be. I just think that human beings don't value what they don't have to pay for personally (in some way-- could be monetary, could be service).

    _________________________________________________

    Jon, that's what I fear, myself-- that the quality issues within the entire system have gone so far over the edge that there isn't an obvious way to recover, but I don't really see anything else emerging to truly replace it yet, either.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #179662 - 01/15/14 11:31 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Bostonian]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    I don't think tax money should be used to make college entirely free for students or their families. OTOH, each of my children currently have six-figure 529 college savings plans not because they "earned" them but because they have affluent parents who have chosen to fund those accounts.


    I'm hard pressed to see a benefit in a 529 account.

    Top
    #179663 - 01/15/14 11:34 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: JonLaw]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: JonLaw
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?"


    Are we certain that's *not* the basic mission of the institution these days?

    Many people seem to have decided that the "college experience" is the goal.



    Truth.

    "Education" is secondary now to the actual mission of many students AND institutions.

    And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation??

    Of course, what I really wish is that rock-climbing facilities, campus dining sushi bars, and the like were something that I could choose to NOT partake of, whilst still obtaining the educational portion of the mission.

    THAT seems to be a problem these days.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #179664 - 01/15/14 11:36 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: HowlerKarma]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    Old Dad, many of us have indicated that "completely free" probably isn't good, either. I happen to be in that particular camp myself. Surprising, I know, given how moderate-to-liberal most of my framework and worldview tends to be. I just think that human beings don't value what they don't have to pay for personally (in some way-- could be monetary, could be service).


    College is a hoop to jump through at this point to establish that you are employable.

    So, there's no reason to not make it free when it's currently functioning as high school.

    Top
    #179665 - 01/15/14 11:37 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: Bostonian]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Originally Posted By: Old Dad
    I find it rather interesting that we're willing to discuss how education should be distributed based on education type, ability of a person to complete specific classes, and any other number of criteria, however, the criteria of, "Did someone earn the right by paying for it?" is so readily dismissed.

    I don't think tax money should be used to make college entirely free for students or their families. OTOH, each of my children currently have six-figure 529 college savings plans not because they "earned" them but because they have affluent parents who have chosen to fund those accounts. You don't want to make college tuition so steeply progressive and need-based that it becomes pointless for parents to save and for 2nd earners of couples to work. But it should also be possible for qualified students from poor families to attend college, partly through loans. The question is how to strike the right balance between those objectives.



    Really excellent post. smile
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #179667 - 01/15/14 11:39 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: HowlerKarma]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation??


    Except that the millions of years of stored sunlight that we are burning at a rapid clip is currently paying for it.

    So nobody's paying for much of anything at the moment.

    Yeah, someone has to go get it and move it, but that doesn't take much effort, relatively speaking.

    Top
    #179669 - 01/15/14 11:45 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    And this is where I happen to agree with Old Dad. Why should I subsidize someone else's 4y ClubMed vacation??

    Of course, what I really wish is that rock-climbing facilities, campus dining sushi bars, and the like were something that I could choose to NOT partake of, whilst still obtaining the educational portion of the mission.



    I agree, but would prefer that these things were simply not there. They're a distraction, both for the students and the university. Well-equipped athletic facilities are very important. A multi-million dollar horsey barn or a new stadium, not so much. The fifteenth new giant research building in as many years, not so much.

    I know that last one must sound odd coming from a scientist, but IMO, we're shoving too many people into research and forcing them to submit too many applications for grants that almost certainly won't get funded (too many applicants), and spending a fortune in the process. All while not doing research (because those hapless researchers are spending so much time writing grant applications).

    This problem, I suspect, is what Wren was referring to when she was saying that the US is falling behind. She was right, but for the wrong reasons. It's not because we don't spend money. It's because we spend it on the wrong things.

    Top
    #179686 - 01/15/14 01:56 PM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    Mark D. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/69
    Posts: 271
    Hello everyone - please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks/calling people out. I would rather not lock this thread unless I have to. Per the board rules:

    Be polite. When you write a message, please treat other people the way you would like to be treated. We welcome comments that contribute to a discussion in a meaningful and/or thought-provoking way. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with something, please ensure that your comment adheres to the guidelines. Personal attacks are not allowed, nor are messages that threaten, are profane, are degrading or are obscene.


    Stick to the topic. If you want to make a comment that will substantially change the direction of a thread, please start a new thread. You may write a comment in the old thread noting that you are starting a new one with a link. Do not “hijack” a thread.


    Do not bully or insult. In any discussion, people may disagree with your opinions. This is a normal part of any discussion. If you do not agree with someone, feel free to post a thoughtful, constructive response, but do not bully or insult people.

    Top
    #179785 - 01/17/14 05:39 AM Re: Free tuition at US public Universities? [Re: madeinuk]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2600
    Loc: MA
    Who should attend college and what they should study depend on what the purpose of going to college should be, which is the subject of this interesting essay. How many 18-year-olds want
    "an opportunity to experience an intellectual awakening"?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/education/arc...obility/283120/
    The Danger of Telling Poor Kids That College Is the Key to Social Mobility
    Higher education should be promoted to all students as an opportunity to experience an intellectual awakening, not just increase their earning power.
    ANDREW SIMMONS
    The Atlantic
    January 16, 2014

    Top
    Page 21 of 36 < 1 2 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 35 36 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    Open college classes to everyone
    by mithawk
    08:02 AM
    Flipped Classroom
    by aeh
    01/18/21 02:15 PM
    Counting to 10
    by aquinas
    01/18/21 09:04 AM
    SAT Accommodations help
    by Irena
    01/04/21 05:31 AM
    Poss.Opportunity to attend DA Reno but Unschooling
    by Deep135
    01/03/21 07:30 PM
    Davidson Institute Twitter