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    Joined: Jul 2011
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    Originally Posted by chay
    I'm not in the U.S. so I have little knowledge of your system admissions requirements. Since there have been a number of references to raising admission standards I'm curious, what are the requirements for a mid level college? (I'm not talking Ivy League or Community College but say something where you could get an Engineering degree with a decent chance of getting a job in an average economy as an example)

    If you can't pass engineering courses, you fail out.

    I don't think that there is currently any problem with American engineering schools and standards, admission or otherwise, unless someone has some data that shows the opposite.

    I think that a problem with engineering schools is that they teach anti-cooperation, which companies who hire them find unhelpful.

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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    That unwillingness to consider, "Can I pay for it?" is why the U.S. is in such a state of financial downfall right now, if we can't currently afford it, we still think we should have it by someone else paying for it and we keep on teaching the next generation that's how it should be.

    It only becomes a problem when the answer to "Can I pay for it?" is a resounding "NO!" by an fast-growing pool of well-qualified individuals.

    I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?"

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    I understand from your POV people are distorting the truth. Okay, facts, if that's what you wish I'm happy to oblige. In the U.S.:

    Average credit card debt: $15,270
    Average mortgage debt: $149,925
    Average student loan debt: $32,258

    Total nonbusiness bankruptcy filings in 2012: 1.18 million
    Total business bankruptcy filings in 2012: 40,075

    If that's not people getting things they can't yet afford I don't know how else I can possibly convince you.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?"

    Are we certain that's *not* the basic mission of the institution these days?

    Many people seem to have decided that the "college experience" is the goal.

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    Originally Posted by Dude
    I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?"

    I'd be happy to discuss those too when the subject matter switches to them.

    Last edited by Old Dad; 01/15/14 12:02 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    I understand from your POV people are distorting the truth. Okay, facts, if that's what you wish I'm happy to oblige. In the U.S.:

    Average credit card debt: $15,270
    Average mortgage debt: $149,925
    Average student loan debt: $32,258

    Total nonbusiness bankruptcy filings in 2012: 1.18 million
    Total business bankruptcy filings in 2012: 40,075

    If that's not people getting things they can't yet afford I don't know how else I can possibly convince you.

    You realize that all of that credit was poofed into existence from nothing in the first place, right?

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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    Originally Posted by Dude
    I do find it interesting that your main concern is, "Can I pay for it?" rather than, "Why should I pay to subsidize outrageous sports programs, unnecessary new construction, frivolous amenities, and tuition discounts for wealthy high-achievers, none of which serve the basic mission of the thing I'm actually paying for?"

    I'd be happy to discuss those too when the subject matter switches to them.

    Which thread are you reading?

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    While I normally enjoy the conversations in this forum, I don't feel that discussing this subject matter any further will yield anything positive. I come from a background where you get what you pay for and you should expect nothing more except by the grace of God. I'll continue to teach my family the same. You're free to teach your family otherwise.

    Thanks for for sharing your points of view and I'll look forward to discussions on other subject matters.

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    Originally Posted by Old Dad
    I find it rather interesting that we're willing to discuss how education should be distributed based on education type, ability of a person to complete specific classes, and any other number of criteria, however, the criteria of, "Did someone earn the right by paying for it?" is so readily dismissed.
    I don't think tax money should be used to make college entirely free for students or their families. OTOH, each of my children currently have six-figure 529 college savings plans not because they "earned" them but because they have affluent parents who have chosen to fund those accounts. You don't want to make college tuition so steeply progressive and need-based that it becomes pointless for parents to save and for 2nd earners of couples to work. But it should also be possible for qualified students from poor families to attend college, partly through loans. The question is how to strike the right balance between those objectives.

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    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    If you can't pass engineering courses, you fail out.
    Isn't that what happens in all courses? If not then I'm starting to understand.

    Originally Posted by JonLaw
    I think that a problem with engineering schools is that they teach anti-cooperation, which companies who hire them find unhelpful.
    lol, Having gone through Engineering (though not in the U.S.) I think most of us had to cooperate at some point in order to survive. We figured that was part of their strategy - you either had to be an PG+ or be able to work with others (which meant you had to be smart enough to bring something to the trade).

    Back to the main topic. I'm in Canada, I can't imagine paying the tuition rates that are paid in the States. It isn't free here but it is still possible for many without becoming insanely in debt. Entrance requirements are reasonably high out of high school. There are lots of scholarships available and most of the top of the class are going for free or close to it. Even full price it is a fraction of what you pay. Then again we don't have fancy foot ball stadiums and sports programs (although you don't really need much when you have 50 fans instead of 50,000).

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