Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional New here. I think my 7 YO, PG son has Asperger's

My son is PG and different. This is not the first time I've entertained the thought that he has Asperger's Syndrome, but lately he's started finger flapping and that has pushed me further along that train of thought. We homeschool him, so he doesn't have to cope with a school setting very often, but when he does there are always challenges. I've virtually removed him from group activities with only a handful of exceptions. He loves to play chess�against a computer. I used to take him to our homeschool group chess club, but he expressed rage each time the other player even made a move that might be considered threatening. (Is that inappropriate anger caused by Immaturity? Perfectionism or AS?�I don't know) My husband took him to the Davidson Gathering last year and he had some pretty difficult social behaviors there as well. I usually have reasonable success when I go with him somewhere like that, but I have to sit right with him and referee/filter (not sure what I'm doing) but I have to manage things for him to keep him from getting out of hand. I have two younger children as well, so that role has become increasingly difficult for me. Hence my motivation for just staying home.

This week he actually had a very positive experience at a fencing camp. The Coach was very structured and rigid with clear expectations, all under an umbrella of kindness. Coach said he began the week by not participating and even eating his lunch by himself. By the end of the week he was participating 100% and could give me the names of 2 friends.

Every time I've ever put him in a setting with a teacher or tutor, the teacher has come to me with concerns.

Every time I've ever read a list of how to distinguish between a "just gifted" kid or a kid who is gifted with AS, I have a very hard time teasing out the distinctions.

Obviously the finger flapping is one mark in favor of Asperger's. Other things that make me lean towards AS (rather than just PG quirkiness) are:
1. Inappropriate Anger response.
2. Internal distraction mid sentence. He'll be talking to me and just stop and gaze off. He faces away from me or even walks away while he's talking to me.
3. Inappropriate laughter response. (he was rolling with laughter while a friend of his showed us a Tae Kwon Do demonstration he'd been practicing. He laughed hysterically yesterday when his brother got a black eye from running into a door knob and was howling with pain)

Things that make me think it isn't AS:
1. He's extremely expressive, and animated. He does a fabulous job of reading stories aloud to his younger siblings and knows how to change pitch and volume to distinguish characters and emotion. He was even chosen by Amazon.com as a Harry Potter Kid correspondent based on a video audition last summer. So he definitely doesn't have that "flat affect" or monotone voice.

I know that no one here can make a diagnosis. I think I was just looking for a little guidance.

I do have one specific question. When I asked him about the finger flapping, he explained it to me in great detail. He said that he had figured out that there are 12 possible combinations of finger snapping, and he works systematically through all of them. Then he slowly showed me how he did it. He also explained that he doesn't always start with the same combination. He does it pretty constantly now. So�what do other people with Asperger's Syndrome say about their finger flapping? How do they explain it? (or do they even know they do it?)

Thank you,
Julie

Hi and welcome! I have no advice. I did have a friend whose PG son is AS. He would develop stims (hand waving etc) and they would go away for a time, then return in some other fashion. Just from what you wrote, it doesn't sound like your son's flapping is a stim. It's a concious things he is doing b/c he's amused by it. My friend's son's stims were uncontrollable and I think he mostly was unaware of even doing it. He certainly couldn't control it like your son seems to be able to. Again, I know nothing about this but that is what popped into my head when I read your post.

I also don't think you can go by him being expressive and animated to rule out AS. From what I've read it seems to be more so inappropriate response to things (such as the laughing), inability to read social cues, etc. rather than how the person expresses himself. But I could be totally wrong.

Well, thank you for, at least giving me a vocabulary word, "Stims" to look up. A google searchg for "Stims Asperger's" has already opened a door for more information. In my quick research though, the "stims" do appear to be voluntary and controlled. Apparently they are even used as positive reinforcements, as in, "You can flap your fingers when you finish your math." Again, thanks for even giving me something to look up.

I am now wondering how thumb sucking fits into this. My son sucked his thumb until he was 6 and a half. We told him that the dentist was going to make him quit when he turned 7, so he just quit. just like that.

lol even when I'm wrong, I'm helpful! ha ha ha

I hope someone else has more (accurate) info for you. It certainly sounds like a tough situation.

My DS7--who is HG+ and definitely not an AS kid--quit sucking his thumb immediately when the dentist told him to stop. He was 3 or 3.5yo at the time, and he literally never put his thumb in his mouth again after the dentist said to stop.

I don't know that this means anything in your son's case, but I think it might indicate that such a behavior isn't necessarily AS-related.

Granted, we have engineers on both sides of the family, so it's possible that we're all semi-near that end of the spectrum. But no one would look at DS7 and ID him as having AS. No one.

Don't know if that helps at all...

I can't offer any help on AS, knowing nothing about it. But, soemone mentioned social cues and in other thread, advice was given about Central Auditory Processing Disorder. Again, I don't know much about it, but it is a hearing disorder in the way the brain processes the information it hears. That's probably a poor description, but it might be something worth researching. I think there is good information about it at the Gifted Development Center website.

Welcome. I hope you find some answers.

Hi Julie-

I have a son (YS alum) who has AS. I don't want to get too detailed here, in respect for his privacy, but you can send me a private message if you want.

I think from what you've described, it would be a good idea to seek the opinion of an experienced neuropsychologist. My son wasn't diagnosed until 13, though we had all the telltale symptoms identified long before that. The younger you catch a problem, the sooner you can get help in place for him, such as social skills training. One of the single greatest regrets of my life is not seeking more answers and services for my son's disability.

Hmm�thanks guys! All good food for thought. I do know a bit about CAPD. I used to work for an audiologist, so I'm at least reasonably familiar with it. I don't think he has auditory issues at all. In fact, his learning style is extremely auditory. He's almost freaky sometimes, like a tape recorder.

I just wondered if Aspergers folks are more likely to suck their thumbs or if they were more likely to replace thumbsucking with something else. Obviously lots of kids suck their thumbs and don't have Aspergers. I just wondered if there was any correlation at all. Good to know the way he quit so quickly wasn't related. We never bugged him about it. It was clearly a very good coping skill for him so I just let him suck away. Sometimes, I even told him to "get your thumb." Because I knew it would help.

Also, my brother's oldest son is Aspie too, but my brother and I don't talk much to each other so, I feel a little weird asking him.

This I don't know. Sorry!



Well, at least I wouldn't assume that it's related. At least you know that some non-AS kids do this, too.

It is hard to tease it all apart, isn't it?

Since you're homeschooling, I assume your son is sufficiently challenged, right? I was just thinking that the inappropriate anger could be a result of being underchallenged and frustrated...

Yes, it really is. He actually does very well here at home. I think we've kind of custom made his academic setting for him. He's not perfect, but his behavior problems really only crop up when I take him to group activities. In those settings, he has trouble. It's extremely stressful for me. So much so, that I just avoid it. Let's see if I can make a few points to describe what I mean.

1. He was thrown out of a science camp when he was 5. He was "mocking" the teacher (imitating her unusual accent). She thought he was being rude. I knew that he just likes to repeat things he finds auditorily interesting. He was also under the table and didn't want to "join in." I just took him out of the class, it wasn't a good fit anyway. Similarly he likes to repeat the way his piano teacher says, "bag." She's from Minnesota so she says it differently from we Texans.

2. At his museum homeschool class, his teacher approached me and said that he annoyed the other children. She says that he seems to want to be friendly, but doesn't seem to know how. I did my best to be responsive. I contacted our DISD family consultant. Of course, I talked to him about it.

3. He was in a Spanish Immersion preschool a couple days a week when he was 3. I stood behind the door and watched one day. He never joined the circle, he hung back and didn't join in group activities. The teacher had to pick him up and take him to the bathroom while the other children walked in a line there together. He never once used the bathroom while he was there. I had to start offering him rewards to get him to go, and even then he waited until the last possible moment before I came to get him and then he would go, which defeated the purpose. He was holding it for 6 hours.

4. Even as a toddler, he resisted joining the group at Gymboree.


Actually, the anger usually results in frustration because: he doesn't want to try, he thinks he isn't good at something, something is harder than he expected, someone is doing something better than he is doing it. That last on is one situation where I can clearly see a lack of empathy (and perhaps Aspie). He does not enjoy playing a game for the companionship or company. He seems to approach competitions as if the only value they could possibly have for him is winning. This is true even if we repeat the game several times and he wins some and doesn't win others. If he loses, or even comes close to losing he quits, except that I won't let him. I remind him that everyone wants to win. I point out to him that each of us won once, but he's just furious anyway. I haven't abandoned this lesson, but it's proving to be a very hard slow lesson. Lately I've been pointing out when other kids show empathy and concern. I've been spelling out how they probably feel. He seems to understand their feelings when I describe them this way. I mentioned the Harry Potter contest in my previous post. That's a good example of his ability to show empathy in certain circumstances, and how in contrasts with his inability to perceive other people's feelings in other situations. Like the yesterday when his brother was hurt. I said to him (not angrily, just pointing it out), "It's not funny, he is hurt. He is crying because it really hurt his eye." Then my son was more understanding, but this situation really seems to fit the Aspie thing because I had to tell him, "He's hurt." It's like, it wasn't enough to just see him crying.

Another example, and this is in contrast to his brother. His brother will come to the kitchen and ask for a cookie. Then he will ask if he can take one to his brother too. In contrast, my older son, Kenneth, will come to the kitchen for a cookie, and it will never occur to him to take a cookie to Reid. He will happily do it if I ask him to, he just doesn't think about it on his own.

I don't know, I feel like I could write and write and write. He's very loving, and affectionate. He likes to be hugged and picked up and he can be very cuddly. So, it's just so hard. His IQ is so high, that I've always known he wouldn't be "normal." So, it's tricky for me to know what's PG "normal." and what's not. Going to the DITD gatherings has helped me somewhat, because he is different, even there. He behaves "oddly" even there. He fits in better, but he's not "just like" the other kids, even in that exclusively PG setting.

Have you given him the Meyers-Briggs personality inventory for kids? I mean, some of what you're describing sounds like a more extreme version of my whole household of INTJs. (With the exception of my 4yo extrovert, of course...) Here's the link, if it helps:

http://www.personalitypage.com/cgi-local/build_pqk.cgi


Well, frustration at not doing things perfectly and the best of all people in particular is VERY often true of HG+ kids. My DS7 has a very calm demeanor...most of the time. Then he loses at something and he throws a tantrum.

Also, I know that 7yos (and kids in that age range) can be *extremely* competitive in game situations, especially HG+ ones. Case in point: I taught a class on the Vikings/Norse to GT kids in 1-3rd grades, and we played a couple of games. Both times kids nearly came to blows over the games--different kids each time!--even though I was standing right there monitoring things! It was bad enough that I'm considering dropping games from my course completely the next time I teach it. (And BTW, I had an AS kid in the class, but he wasn't one of the kids involved in the conflicts.)

I know I sound like I'm saying your son isn't AS, and that's not really what I'm trying to do. I know almost nothing about AS! Just the little I've picked up here and there. But I guess I could see plenty of other explanations for the things you are describing.

I think your son's inappropriate emotional responses are the ones that most concern me. But as someone who is not AS and who often doesn't "get" the emotions of other people because of my particular personality profile (We INTJs on the Meyers-Briggs are Spock-like, if that tells you how clueless I tend to be about emotional stuff...), the other behavior is certainly problematic in terms of daily life, but it seems to my utterly uneducated-in-AS mind to be not all that abnormal. Just more extreme. But again, maybe we're bordering the spectrum and just don't know it...

One other thought: have you tried keeping a behavior journal for him? I've heard that sometimes you can spot triggers (lack of sleep, food allergies, sensitivities to food dyes or pesticides, etc.) that cause/contribute to troublesome behaviors, and I'm thinking that there may be something like that going on, maybe? (I'm also pretty clueless about this stuff, but it's another potential avenue to explore.)

But of course, feel free to disregard anything I say here! I am totally talking out of my area of expertise, such as that is...

I agree with Lorel. I have a friend who's son I am pretty sure has AS and she has had others mention it to her too but she is burying her head in the sand and is not even checking. So I think if you are concerned it would be worth checking out just for your peace of mind if nothing else. There are things that can be done for younger children to help them so it is good to catch at an early age if possible.

If you do decide to check it out, you can either be relieved that it isn't AS or you can start getting him help. Either way at least you'll know. And I applaud you for asking questions and not burying your head in the sand and for trying to figure out what is going on with your child.

Agreed. I should have said that before I wandered off into supposition land...

Thanks, EandCMom!

LOL Kriston!!! I totally missed your post when I posted. You presented some wonderful things to think about too!!!

Meh. Maybe. But I think the most important point is yours and Lorel's, and I meant to reiterate that first: get it checked out by an expert. I just got lost in my own thoughts!

Doh!

Yes, I agree, the anger response is, at least on paper, less concerning. He does respond in anger in appropriate situations. His anger is too much, but I have a temper too, and had an awful time as a child. (Even now I screw things up with my temper from time to time) That said, I think there is something qualitatively different about his anger response that it's very difficult for me to describe. Again though, that's lower on my concern list than some of the other things I've mentioned. (and other things I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to write a novella)

He looks awkward too, if he is standing in a circle of kids his posture and movement look different from the others. (He is also tiny, most people think he is 5 or 6, but he'll be 8 in August) I don't know that I've ever really noticed this before, but I was watching him very closely this week at fencing camp. He stunned me because on Friday, the last day of camp, he was willing to hold hands with other children in order to form a circle and he actually played a "duck duck goose" sort of game.

Regarding the food allergies, actually, my younger son has a number of food allergies and I took both boys to an allergist who specializes in food allergies and behaviors in Autistic children. My son was tested via the IGE blood test method. We found absolutely no food allergies, dyes and additives were on the list.

I definitely notice that he has trouble when he gets too hungry, but we've got a pretty good handle on that. The problem behaviors that concern me here are distinctive to when he is expected to be part of a group.

I'm going to go through the personality assessment now. Thanks for directing me to that.

He got an ISJ on the inventory. There a couple of things that don't fit at all, like:

"They enjoy participating in group sports or team activities"

Otherwise, it looks like a reasonably good fit, but I really wavered on a lot of the questions.

This one:
When meeting new people, is the child more likely to
�be shy until they get to know them
�be friendly and unafraid, and enjoy meeting the strangers
�observe from the sidelines for a short while, and then be friendly and unafraid
Don't know

That was really tough because the real answer would be that he's very open and will be friendly and talkative to an adult, but he totally hangs back and is reluctant to talk to other kids unless they come to him first, then he's friendly, just odd.

The times that he hangs back and observes from the sidelines are when he's supposed to be part of a group. Like, he's happy if he has one or two people to talk to, but any more than that and he's lost.

I don't know, I'm not sure that really got me any closer to an answer because I don't know that I could really feel confident about any of my responses. I kept wanting to add caveats.

I'm wondering if his expressive reading is more related to his imitative skills than to empathy.

Also, I'd like to recommend The Mislabeled Child by the Drs. Eide. It has a very good chapter on how to distinguish Asperger's characteristics from other things.

Yes, Dottie. I also have a friend with a GT child (probably HG, though I don't know for sure) who is homeschooled because the school was pushing for a diagnosis of some sort--and AS was tops on their list!--but he just didn't fit that label. They wouldn't let the child in the GT program until the behavior was figured out, though clearly lack of challenge was a big part of the problem.

Sleep issues are another big part of the boy's problem. His behavior looked very AS on Thursday and Friday, when the wear-and-tear of the week had him worn out. But a kid can't be AS only two or three days of the week.

And did I mention that his dad is a psychologist specializing in the autism spectrum? So, yeah, they we about as aware of the situation and the potential diagnoses as anyone could be!

The mom's take, after repeated testing AND medical poking and prodding AND sleep studies AND psychologist's visits AND psychiatrist's visits AND drugs AND so on AND so on...:"Something's up with him, but it's not anything that has a label. The school needed a label. That's why we're not in the school anymore."

I don't think the expressiveness is just from memorization because that Harry Potter video I mentioned is not memorization. It's just an interview I taped with him talking about which character is his favorite from the book. You can see it on Amazon.com. It's still there:

http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_lin...mp;pf_rd_p=294447401&pf_rd_i=1084186

It loads a different child at random, but you can click on Kenneth to see him. This video does NOT make a very good case for a kid with AS�but there are other things that this video doesn't show. The video demonstrates both expressiveness AND empathy.

He's adorable, greenpalm I see what you mean. He is very expressive as he relates the story and he talks about the motivations of the characters.

Do you think the worrisome behaviors you listed could be a result of extreme sensitivity? I am thinking of myself as a child--I would talk to adults but other kids scared me to death. To me, they seemed totally unpredictable. I didn't make friends at school, my only friend was a younger girl that my mom babysat. At recess, I used to hide or play a solitary game. Other kids noticed my odd behavior and picked on me. The slightest thing used to make me cry (inappropriate emotional response?) When I was a bit older, I was able to make a couple friends at a GT school. But I was still quite inept socially. Hey, maybe I have AS

Dottie, it wouldn't work for me either. But then I saw that greenpalm said it loads a video randomly. So I kept pushing refresh until Kenneth popped up!

I still think getting him checked out is necessary, if only to put your mind at ease.

But as I see the video and review the problematic behaviors that you've listed--as well as the non-AS-typical behaviors like the cuddliness and the expressiveness--I just keep seeing a highly introverted PG child who is very auditory (thus the mimicry and the trouble he gets into when people don't understand that he's not being malicious with it).

Everything could pretty much be explained by that combo of factors, I think. But I say again, I'm no expert, in a big way!

He's a real cutiepie, BTW!

P.S. I sent you a private message.

I am not sure I can offer you any advice either but I did want to comment that your son is very cute! Loved the video.

He pulled right up for me!! He is very, very cute!!!

Hi Greenpalm,
I have some experience with pg/AS kids. Everyone here has given you good advice. It's true, there can be a fine line between PG and AS. Your ds may or may not ever be diagnosed. Either way I think your concerns are very valid, and you'd be wise to focus on those, regardless of a label. I have worked with a social skills group for kids and some of them have labels, others do not; because their parents have chosen not to go that route.
It sounds to me like learning how to best help him, or finding someone to help him wend his way through the world will be valuable. You have clearly already been doing so, and reading up on this is your best bet.

feel free to pm me if you would like more info.

At age 7 my son used to flap his hands when he was excited, which was often, and because of this and the fact that the words he used in his speech sounded more like an adult than a little kid, some people thought he has Asperger's--even my sister, who thought the developmental pediatrician had to be wrong when she told us he didn't have it. He was also very expressive and animated when he talked.

My son doesn't have Asperger's because he doesn't have any deficit in social skills, has more friends than I ever had, can read body language to the point that it sometimes seems he can read my mind, loves to use figurative language and enjoys books with a lot of figurative language, has no trouble looking anyone in the eye and his friends describe him as smart and funny. He sometimes likes to use different voices for different characters when he reads or makes up jokes. I think all of his friends in his musical theater class do this too. I think all the kids in his class, ages 4 - 19, are all very smart and kind of quirky and so much fun. My son is just a little quirkier than the others.

One of his friends even asked me why he is similar in some ways to another kid he knows who does have Asperger's. I think one of the main reasons my son seems similar to someone with Asperger's is because he has sensory integration dysfunction which he says causes him to feel like he has excess energy in his hands that he has to get rid of. He doesn't do it as much now, only when he is extremely nervous, like outside the room where the spelling bee was held. He didn't do it on stage because now that he is 10 he knows that it looks a little strange and he cares a little more about how he looks to other people than he used to. At seven he didn't care that much what people thought about him.

I found that he was worse with the flapping whenever he ate or drank something containing Red Dye #40 so I tried to keep him away from that whenever we were in public.

Before I found out that he had sensory integration issues, I didn't know what to tell people about his quirky hand flapping other than the "overexcitabilities" I had read about.

There is a saying that if you meet a person with autism (or Asperger's) then... you've met a person with autism. Some kids with asperger's are very expressive, some have no problems with eye contact. I personally feel that kids with asperger's can be empathetic, it's just different than the average person. The social skills issue is a huge one.

Here's DSM criteria for Asperger's: http://ani.autistics.org/dsm4-aspergers.html

Lori, I'm a bit confused by your post. Are you saying that every kid with AS has no sense of humor, never makes eye contact, and is not smart?

I have known you online for years, (first at parents place, I think, and then P and P?) and it seems to me that many times you HAVE described your son as having social problems. I can't diagnose ANYTHING, of course, as I am not qualified, but everything you have shared in the past leads me to believe that your son may be on the spectrum. I have not mentioned this before, as I didn't want to cause offense, but it may be that if your son does have AS, he is still young and malleable enough for treatment to do a lot of good.

My son with AS is also frequently described as smart and funny. He has a dry sense of humor and loves to read Dave Barry and Terry Pratchett. He is a great mimic as well, and often confused other kids when he was young by talking to them with "clips" from various television shows and video games, which the other kids did not have the context to understand. He has the same issues with hypotonia that you have told us that your son has. He can speak in front of a class, but is hard pressed to make small talk with acquaintances. He rarely initiates conversation or thinks to ask someone how they are or what they've been doing.

Remember, autism is a spectrum disorder. No two kids will present exactly alike. Maybe you could keep an open mind about the possibility of your son having AS, and see what a qualified neuropsychologist thinks. There are many far worse things than AS out there.

respectfully,

Julie-

Here's an official on the board welcome to you! I do hope we'll be able to connect in the near future! Are you on the Gifted Issues list of attendees yet?

Oh Greenpalm. I have no expertise on AS or Autism. My DS7 falls into the camp of "doesn't seem quirky enough to be HG+". But he was absolutely adorable on that video! Thanks for sharing and good luck.

No, I did not say that and I do not think that every kid with AS has no sense of humor, never makes eye contact, and is not smart.

My son has met kids with AS online and he felt that he had a lot in common with one of them. The people with AS that we met online all seemed very, very bright.

I am the only one in my family that has trouble making small talk, especially with people I have nothing in common with.

My son is not shy like I was as a child and when I asked my very social former cheerleader daughter to rate her little brother's social skills, she said 10 out of 10. They talk to each other several times a day and enjoy verbal sparring with each other, just like his dad does with his geology professor sister. I am not sure, but I think that might be an example of social reciprocity.

He certainly doesn't lack the spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people.

He is good at making small talk with the friends who are interested in the things he likes. He doesn't want to talk about football or other sports that he can't play which is what most of his age mates want to talk about.

He doesn't have an encompassing preoccupation with one or more sterotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus. He likes video games, but no more than his friends, he likes history, but no more than one of his friends, he probably likes science a little more than most of his friends and none of his friends are into learning new vocabulary the way he does, some of his friends like trivia, but maybe not as much as he does.

There is no inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals.

He did do the repetitive motor mannerisms, but not so much now. I don't remember where, but I know I have seen this listed online somewhere as something that might be caused by sensory integration dysfunction. A child can have sensory integration dysfunction without AS.

I have looked at the criteria before and I still don't think it fits my son because he does have very good friends but they are several years older. He just does not have the required impairments in social interaction. There is only one that might fit--"failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level" --but when we told the developmental pediatrician that all his friends were gifted but several years older she told us that he had a "higher mental age" and that it was okay to have all older friends. If by "developmental level" they mean physical development then his motor issues, especially visual motor integration would be younger than his chronological age.

I just wanted to thank everyone again for your thoughts on this (and all the warm welcomes!) DH and I have decided that the only rational thing to do is to take him for an evaluation. We are exploring options for finding a good professional. Thanks so much for the support, thoughts and help. It's sticky jungle to navigate!

I'm glad to hear it, and I hope the assessment helps you in this crazy journey.

Greenpalm, you're very welcome.

Lori,

I am sorry if I upset you. But perhaps if others are routinely asking if DS has AS, it may be a good idea to get an evaluation? Then you will have it officially ruled out, and you will know that you have put the effort into it and can dismiss the idea completely. It may be that he has some aspie traits, but not enough for a diagnosis, but the test admins should still be able to help with recommendations and resources.

That's my last comment, and I hope you will realize that my intention is to help. MY DS with AS is struggling in some areas, and I wish that I had done more to help him develop certain skills when I had more influence. They grow up quickly, and then we can't make choices for them.

Just a quick non-scientific anecdote. I've found people and especially children seem to have higher compensating skills the more intelligent they are. Both my own girls have an issue or two that are "borderline"... I would say the symptoms are more borderline than the underlying cause actually is. They are both amazing compensators and are both extremely bright.
I think things get missed for some children who are superbright because they compensate so well.
My pediatrician recommends intervention when there is a diagnosable issue AND it is has to be somewhat problematic.
Example: DD8 cannot ride a bike or tie her shoes. We didn't get the scrip for eval until she became embarrassed about it. She has a mild swallowing issue which she has had therapy for when younger, but it is still a mild issue. Since there is no choking or aspiration issues he says, "just go ahead and let her drink from a straw the rest of her life. I have patients her age with feeding tubes so the straw is not the worst case". A little harsh, but somewhat sensical. I think they see a very high compensating kid and aren't as compelled to intervene with therapy. At least that's what I've seen, but maybe we have a bad pediatrician.

Or just a sensible one...I tend to think we're pretty quick as a culture to want a diagnosed label.

That's not to say that all labels are bad or that there aren't some kids who need intervention and get missed. Both are true sometimes. I think Greenpalm should seek help from someone who knows more than we do, and I have great sympathy for what Lorel has been through. I agree with what Lorel has written about the benefits of evaluation. In short, if your "Mom spidey-sense" is tingling, then I am 100% convinced that you should act to get professional help. You just should. Moms know. Trust that. See an expert.

But as a culture, in general, I think people have become much more comfortable with diagnosing and much less comfortable with quirks, and I find that troubling.

I'm with your doctor, 'Neato, if it is quirky but not problematic, then why meddle? Sometimes the fix is worse than the quirk. And why does everyone have to be the same anyway? When did we vote on that? I like quirky!

LOL!

I find this conversation absolutely fascinating! I'm in the middle of a very interesting book called, Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults by James T. Webb et al. (the subtitle is "ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, and Other Disorders.") There is a 10 page discussion about the primary diagnostic criteria for Asperger's Disorder and the similarities between Asperger's Disorder and Gifted Behaviors. I got the book through an interlibrary loan, and highly recommend it. (at least what little of it I have read!)

I'm one of those moms who continually picks up and reads all of the books I can find on Asperger's, trying to find something that explains my son. He has never flapped his arms or done repetitive behaviors, although he would occasionally bang his head against things when he was really small. We found out that he had several food allergies (wheat, corn, dairy, soy, and eggs) and those behavior stopped when we adjusted his diet. This is very interesting since some autistic kids improve on a gluten-free, dairy-free diet. Oh and BTW, we had blood work done for food allergies, and my son always came back as negative. They seem to have a high incidence of false negatives. I have a really interesting article called "In the Dark about Corn Allergy" from the Living Without Magazine 2004. (unfortunately their web site only goes back to 2005). It explains how food allergies strongly effect kid's behavior. They don't always break out in bump or hives, or wheeze when they have an allergy. Corn in particular seems to make my son aggressive and angry, to the point where he lashes out at the world. Keep him away from corn (which is in everything... toothpaste, baking powder, anything with an adhesive like tape, most art supplies at school, and even toilet paper!) and he is as happy and content as can be.

He is an only child who continually has his nose pressed against a window, looking for someone outside to play with. But then he doesn't seem to fit in with the neighborhood kids. They are more inclined to ride their bikes or scooter up and down the driveways and not use their imagination. My son gets bored with sports and would rather invent complex stories and imaginative games. It makes for a very lonely childhood. The school psychologist thought that he had "sensory seeking behaviors", so I am intrigued by the comment about sensory integration disorder. Any one have any more info on this?

I also wanted to point out that I believe there is a wide range of behaviors in this world that can not be placed in any one category, perhaps because there are so few numbers in the population that exhibit them. My DH and I both exhibit a characteristic or two of Aspys, or are we just gifted, mathematically inclined adults who happen to be introverted or shy? What makes one gifted person highly social and other one socially inept? How do you separate out the personality traits of a fidgety, squirmy gifted kid and one who is ADHD. And what in the world do you do when your fidgety, squirmy, gifted kid might also be ADHD or an Aspy? It is hard enough trying to find out what to do when your kid is just highly gifted!!

I'm new to all of this and love to hear about the characteristics of all the gifted kids. I am learning so much from you. Hope the book tidbit and the food allergy comment help.

ebeth

Yes, my friend's DD is gifted w/ ADHD. Certain foods (dyes etc) just send her spinning around the room. It's tough to maintain the diet especially when they go visit other people or go out to lunch w/ dad. But the behaviour changes are significant.

In addition to red dye #40 my son is sensitive to something in Cheetos, so I try to keep him away from this stuff, especially when we go out somewhere. He usually checks food labels before eating anything, if he has the chance to.

I just found an interesting article at www.autism-in-the-christican-home.com/stimming.html about stimming. It says that it is commonly found in autism, but also found in other developmental disabilities.

I was surprised to see that tapping fingers is listed as an example of stimming. It also said that all of us engage in some of these behaviors occasionally, especially when we are stressed. I know this is true for me. My son pointed out that I often tapped the steering wheel when I am nervous about driving in traffic.

I have even done the "shaking my hands or flapping for whatever you want to call it" thing similar to what my son does, but only when I do something like walk into a spider web in the dark because that definitely activates my "fight or flight" response. My response is automatic and I am not thinking of how it looks to other people or anything else, so I think I can kind of understand how my son might be feeling when he occasionally does this--like when he was extremely nervous after looking at the stage in the huge university auditorium where he would soon be competing in the spelling bee. I felt like pacing the floor--another stimming behavior, accoring to the list.

When I told the OT about the stimming at the spelling bee she said he really needs to do something like running or push ups or something before he does something like this and it should help. Before the spelling bee all we did was stop by McDonald's where my son got a coke and sausage biscuit. The caffeine probably didn't help either.

I think a lot of people think that reading at 2 plus talking like an adult plus occasional stimming has to equal Asperger's.

It may not be a false negative in the strict sense, but an indication that your son has food sensitivities or intolerances rather than true food allergies which are IgE-mediated and can cause anaphylaxis. It is an important distinction because when sensitivities and intolerances are referred to as allergies, it becomes difficult to convince people that food allergies are a life-threatening condition. This is a subject near and dear to my heart since both my children have food-induced anaphylaxis.

Oh yes... the dreaded red food dye #40. We finally figured that one out when he was four and got a single, red, heart-shaped sucker after dinner on Valentine's day. (about the size of a quarter!) He changed from his normal, active self to this latte-fueled energizer bunny. It was serious like someone had given him a triple shot of espresso! He was chattering so fast that he stopped pausing between words to breathe and his sentences began to run together until they were jibberish. Then he started running laps around the dining room table. He could not stop moving. Four hours later, he was laying in bed, twitching at 11 pm, completely unable to get to sleep. He kept saying, "Mom, my head is spinning too fast!"

There is also a preservative in most processed food called BHT that my son reacts to in much the same way. That might be what is in the Cheetos?

I'm really curious about this stimming. (I've never heard of this before.) My son's teacher found that he had to have something in his pocket to fiddle with during the day to get rid of some of his nervous energy. I will have to read up on this. Thanks for the tip.

Just as peanut allergies are on the increase, I am hearing a lot about the red dye and also, now, the orange dye used for Cheetos, cheddar crackers, orange soda, etc.
I wonder if food sensitivities are on the increase or if we have better tools to measure them, thus the increase in diagnosing them.
I found out two years ago that I have a gluten intolerance. It is difficult to totally cut out gluten without spending a fortune at Whole Foods.
I also have a sensitivity to a natural preservative that is commonly used in foods. The thing that stinks is that since it is naturally occurring as opposed to synthetic, it can be grouped under natural flavors instead of being listed outright in the ingredients.
Concerning stimming and autism and the spectrum.....I think in the next 10 years or so, we are going to see a lot of nuerological explanations for spectrum type issues. As well as, many things such as empathy/lack there of, inability to read social cues/intuition, deja vu, and many others.. Referring back to the previous compensation discussion- I would guess there are adults out there who are mildly on the spectrum who don't have an official diagnosis and who have high compensating skills. I would guess there are a small number of people out there who intuitively compensate for atypical nuerology as well as physical impairment similar to what they would achieve in PT or OT. In mild cases anyway.
What do you think?

Interesting discussion. I have a friend with a 3.5 year old DD who currently has her on a gluten/dairy free diet (and yes - costs a fortune!) for borderline autistic behaviors. It's hard to say what is going on with her. She definitely prefers to play alone and have her own space. She seems probably at least MG. But she likes me a lot! It takes her a long time to get to trust people. My DD4 and her don't play together at all, and my DD really loves to play with other kids.

It's funny, my mom and I were just discussing this today. Why are so many more children being diagnosed with allergies today, and not just minor allergies, but life threatening ones? Maybe part of it is better diagnostic tools. I saw a story on the news of a child with a severe peanut allergy who jumped into a pool where someone else in the pool had eaten peanut butter at some point in the day and the allergic child immediately went into anaphylactic shock. The mom was trying to educate people on how serious these allergies can be. Cathy, I feel for you!!! I hope your kids aren't this allergic.

I hope so, too! Although, when DD was a toddler, another child used her tricycle after eating a granola bar. Then DD used it and she got hives up to her elbows on both arms.

We don't eat out anymore because DD had a reaction to some (supposedly peanut-free) Indian food. DD had hives for three days.

She wears her Epipen around her waist and eats at a peanut-free table at school. The whole thing absolutely scares me to death, especially when I can't seem to get through to her teachers. Just this week, DD brought home a goodie bag from her teacher. It had two mini candy bars in it labeled "May contain peanuts." To me, it might as well say "May contain cyanide!" So if I am a little touchy on the subject, I hope you will all understand

In the book that I mentioned earlier, Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses in Gifted Children and Adults, Dr. Webb has a Chapter entitled "Allergies, Asthma, and Reactive Hypoglycemia." (Chapter 8). Here is a quote from page 169:

"Rogers' analysis of data collected by Silverman on children with IQ scores above 160 revealed that 44% suffered from allergies, compared to 20% of the general population and that almost 10% suffered from asthma.

In our clinical experience, approximately 30% to 40% of highly gifted children suffer from allergies, usually to food of some type or to common chemicals. Silverman (2002) concluded from a 20-year clinical sample that the most frequently occurring allergies reported for gifted children were milk and milk products, sugar, corn, chocolate, caffeine, eggs, and red food dye."

I also found a link to an article in Living Without Magazine about corn allergy, if anyone is interested. It discussed allergy-induced autism.

http://www.livingwithout.com/features/vault_corncrazy.html

Oh yes! Completely! And we worry for your DD, too.

I think the hardest part is that allergic kids are out there in the world without you. I'm not a control freak (well, not entirely anyway... ), but that part of DS7's allergies to tree nuts filled me with dread. And all we can do is do our best to prepare them and hope that they remember to ask the right questions and accept only the right answers...even when faced with some yummy treat that they REALLY want.

*sigh*

So scary!

Sorry, but this is another example of what I am talking about. The top 8 food allergens are actually peanuts, tree nuts, milk, eggs, fish, shellfish, soy and wheat. Things like sugar and caffeine are not proteins and cannot be true allergens. Certainly, people can have adverse reactions to these things. But lumping them together with true allergies makes very little scientific sense.

Maybe these should be referred to as sensitivities rather than true allergens? Kids being sensitive to a product is very different than having a true life threatening reaction. So I definitely understand your being a bit touchy about the subject!!! I would be too.

My kids have skin allergies and regular seasonal type allergies but no food allergies as of yet (and hopefully never!) I guess Kriston is right and all you can do is educate your child about the dangers. You would think educating the adults in their lives would help too but what do you do with teachers sending home candy with peanuts in it????!!!! Good grief!!!!

I don't know. DD is fairly responsible about her allergies, but I just don't understand why the teacher would put this stuff in her bag. We have been round and round about this with the teacher, so it's not like she isn't aware of the issue. Somehow, people just feel compelled to force junk food on my kids.

Anyway, this is getting way OT. Sorry about that.

Sorry too!!!!!

Cathy, I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but I have a friend whose daughter is also severely allergic to milk and peanuts. Actually all dairy. People just don't pay attention. When she was at my house my DD5 who was 4 climbed up into the cabinet and took out some gum and gave her a piece. And we had been watching them closely, it happened in a second. Luckily the gum had nothing she was allergic to .
Her school drops the ball all the time, they just aren't mentally programmed to be on the alert about the allergies all the time.
I am sorry you are in this situation, I can't imagine how hard this is, especially when they are little.

Oh, incog--I know there are many others in the same boat. That's one reason why it's so frustrating. Public awareness is very low.

Thanks for your understanding

I think people confuse neurological reactions with immunological reactions. And clearly, one can influence the other. In very preliminary evidence, kids w/ early onset autism and regressive-type autism each have different immunologic profiles from each other as well as from normal kids.

It may be that autism has some kind of autoimmune component that impairs neurological function. But that is still different from an allergy.

I'm not clear regarding what you mean by "But that is still different from an allergy."

I was responding to this in the context of the food allergy discussion. But maybe you are changing to an entirely different topic related to autism?

Ah yes, I was diverging from the allergy discussion somewhat. Simply that people will speak about an allergy to certain things, which as you stated, aren't immunologically mediated but are rather, neurologically mediated. This of course triggered in my forever wandering brain, research I read recently on a correlative (not necessarily causative) link between the immune system and autism, a neurological disorder. The next few years will be an exciting time for neuro-immunologists.

As a side note, I googled antibodies to caffeine and it's actually an area of research. Apparently llama's produce a heat-stable antibody to caffeine which can be used to detect caffeine in coffee/tea.

Cathy A... I can't even get my in-laws to treat my son's or my allergies seriously! (fifteen years of watching everyone else eat Thanksgiving dinner!) We are allergic to wheat, corn, eggs, dairy, and soy. My son also appears to have a latex allergy. I've all but given up on complete strangers, or even people who should pay attention like school officials. Most glue, paint, tape, modeling clay (almost all art supplies!) have either wheat or corn in them, and I keep going round and round with school administrators and teachers about it. So I completely understand as well!

I've even gone round and round with doctors who tell me that true dairy allergy is very rare and that my other allergies to anything in the garlic family are just sensitivities. But I've learn that if I'm exposed to something and start to have a reaction, then taking Benadryl stops it immediately. It has to be an allergic reaction if an anti-histamine blocks it.

My point was that "gifted kids can be misdiagnosed because they have an allergic reaction that results in them being distractible, having high activity levels, showing temper tantrums, or being impulsive." I realize that this is in a different league from anaphylactic shock, but it may be a concern to others here. True allergic reactions can cause bizarre behaviors in some people. I witnessed this today in fact when my son came home from day camp with a rash across his face and in an extremely impulsive, aggressive mood. All from playing with play-do. An hour after taking benadryl, the rash was gone and he was back to his sweet little self.

And from the point of view of watching everything my DS8 (today is his birthday) eats and knowing that he can't eat at restaurants or treats at school (and cooking everything from scratch... try making a wheat-free, egg-free, dairy-free birthday cake that an eight year old will eat), then I feel your pain. Allergies just come in all shapes and sizes.

Oh, boy... I've had the same conversation with my DD's pediatrician. Even though her first bite of dairy containing food caused facial swelling, hives, screaming and vomiting (she was 5 months old) he told me that "true dairy allergies are very rare." And advised me to try feeding it to her again in a couple of weeks. Well, I was afraid to try! After seeing her claw at her gums until they bled, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I took her to an allergist for a second opinion. And yes, she tested positive for dairy, egg and peanut.

Ever since then, when a doctor tells me, "It's not X because X is very rare," I am immediately suspicious. It's really not a good argument for eliminating a diagnosis.

I get the same question all the time re: DS4's dairy allergy, "so, he's lactose intolerant?" At least when people ask, I have the chance to try to explain the difference between a true allergy and lactose intolerance.

Speaking of allergy, I had an interesting conversation with DS's pediatric allergist last week. I tried to discreetly get info about why HG children have high incidence of allergy (I wrote the question in a letter and asked her to email me), but she started talking about it anyway. So much for not using the "g" word in front of DS4!

I'm really going to be paraphrasing here, because DS4's asynchronous development was running high in the doc's office, but I tried to pay attention. So, she talked about how there's probably not a cause and effect situation re: allergy and giftedness, but rather how it's just one of many factors, and a combo of nature and nurture. She talked about how there is virtually no incidence of allergy in poor, underdeveloped countries (but they have other things to worry about, such as parasites, etc).

I also did a little PSA, and gave her the link to the SENG brochure (in spite of drawbacks mentioned on another post), because it does say what docs can do to help in identification. I said that it would be helpful if parents found out about giftedness issues before school, and pediatricians might be a good resource. I acknowledged that giftedness sometimes isn't the easiest thing to notice, since my 4-year-old was defintely in fine 4-year-old form that day!

But the most wonderful thing she said was that she thought gifted kids got short-changed in schools. Yay for DS4's doc!

Parasites aren't all bad!!! Parasites set up an immunosuppressive environment in the gut hence very low incidence of IBD, Crohn's disease and asthma in 3rd world countries. Also, our clean hygiene results in a relatively naive immune system which in it's quest to find antigens to react against, end up finding dust mites, food antigens to react against.

Perhaps the link is correlative ... parents with higher IQs, being more knowledgeable/persistent in good hygiene, pass this on to their kids hence an increase in asthma in this population.

I never forget the look on my friend's face when my baby's pacifier fell on the floor and I gave it back to him. She commented "you're not going to sterilize that?" I said, "No, that's what immune systems are for." Ha Ha Ha. Now, I should add that it was in my own house and he was over 6months old. When they are very little, I am more careful about what goes in their mouth.

He is adorable and its wonderful. He clearly plays to his audience and I love his facial expressions.

My guess is that when he tries to talk to his peers, like he does on this video, he gets a blank look back from them as if he is speaking Greek to them, which he is. So he does not play to that audience anymore.

In Fencing class, its something that he does that is on the same level of the others and hence he can relate with them.

His size may just be related to his intensity levels and his posture to the same reason.

What a happy, loving son!

Latest research shows allergies are caused by introducing solid foods too early. Our Ped. is adamant about this.

Since GT kids are advanced, it would be very easy to start giving them stuff too early.

Jr wants what we are eating and its hard not to give him some when he grabs the fork from our hands and ignores his spoon.

All three of my kids could not tolerate any cow's milk in my diet. The pedi told me, w/ my 1st son who also got eczema when I had dairy, no solid food until 6months. Fortunately, I wasn't living near family and I had caller ID to ignore the phone calls b/c everyone thought I was starving the child to death by not giving solid food. The kid was gaining weight on his growth curve, was fat and chubby and healthy. Even after 2 healthy kids, my mom keeps telling me not to starve DD. Sigh.....family..gotta love them.

However, I had friends who had kids that were so ravenous, they were on solid foods at 8weeks....and I mean JARS of food at a sitting. I would just stare with mouth agape. I think if that's the case, just be mindful of the least allergenic foods.

I don't think this is true in all cases. My kids showed symptoms of food allergy from early infancy. They reacted to proteins that were passed into my breastmilk from foods that I ate. I think the jury is still out on the causes of food allergies.

As in anything, there are multiple causes. DH was telling me that peanut allergy is rare in some country (India?) and they feed the babies peanut containing foods from infancy. Cause or correlation?

I think there was a study that babies can be sensitized to peanuts in utero so if there is a family history, you should abstain from peanuts/nuts during pregnancy.

the immune system randomly rearranges gene segments to produce your repertoire of antigens you can respond to. My theory is that if you are exposed to an antigen when the immune system is naive, those immune cells are a larger proportion of the repertoire and therefore might increase allergy to that antigen. But if the food is given later, when the immune system has setup adequate tolerance measures in the gut, when those same antigenic foods are eaten, the immune system will not react to it as readily b/c those sells will be a significantly smaller proportion of the repertoire due to all the other antigens the child has been exposed to. Every time an antigen is encountered, the immune system expands the cells reactive to that antigen. Hence, allergic reactions get worse upon subsequent exposure b/c more cells are responding and responding more vehemently. the only explanation for kids who went into shock after eating nuts for the first time was that they were sensitized in utero. It has seen been shown that babies in utero can mount an immune response to vaccines given to the mother if given during pregnancy.

Julie:

If you are still following the discussion under your topic, I wanted to mention that we have had concerns about our DS that sound similar to yours, and I've been very concerned at times about AS, Defiance Disorder, and a couple of others.

If you have not already considered it, we found a therapy approach using floor play therapy, as outlined by Stanley Greenspan, et. al., in THE CHILD WITH SPECIAL NEEDS: ENCOURAGING INTELLECTUAL AND EMOTIONAL GROWTH to be effective. With a small amount of outside therapy I feel that we have opened the lines of emotional communication between us and DS quite dramatically, and thus laid the foundation for him to build up relationships with others. His capacity to handle varied and complex social situations has grown impressively in the past few months. If you're interested in hearing more, please send me a private message.

This video concerns autism. However the research is very interesting and underlines the importance of behavioral therapy. Hope you find it relevant:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8763620