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    Joined: Jun 2008
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    My son is PG and different. This is not the first time I've entertained the thought that he has Asperger's Syndrome, but lately he's started finger flapping and that has pushed me further along that train of thought. We homeschool him, so he doesn't have to cope with a school setting very often, but when he does there are always challenges. I've virtually removed him from group activities with only a handful of exceptions. He loves to play chess�against a computer. I used to take him to our homeschool group chess club, but he expressed rage each time the other player even made a move that might be considered threatening. (Is that inappropriate anger caused by Immaturity? Perfectionism or AS?�I don't know) My husband took him to the Davidson Gathering last year and he had some pretty difficult social behaviors there as well. I usually have reasonable success when I go with him somewhere like that, but I have to sit right with him and referee/filter (not sure what I'm doing) but I have to manage things for him to keep him from getting out of hand. I have two younger children as well, so that role has become increasingly difficult for me. Hence my motivation for just staying home.

    This week he actually had a very positive experience at a fencing camp. The Coach was very structured and rigid with clear expectations, all under an umbrella of kindness. Coach said he began the week by not participating and even eating his lunch by himself. By the end of the week he was participating 100% and could give me the names of 2 friends.

    Every time I've ever put him in a setting with a teacher or tutor, the teacher has come to me with concerns.

    Every time I've ever read a list of how to distinguish between a "just gifted" kid or a kid who is gifted with AS, I have a very hard time teasing out the distinctions.

    Obviously the finger flapping is one mark in favor of Asperger's. Other things that make me lean towards AS (rather than just PG quirkiness) are:
    1. Inappropriate Anger response.
    2. Internal distraction mid sentence. He'll be talking to me and just stop and gaze off. He faces away from me or even walks away while he's talking to me.
    3. Inappropriate laughter response. (he was rolling with laughter while a friend of his showed us a Tae Kwon Do demonstration he'd been practicing. He laughed hysterically yesterday when his brother got a black eye from running into a door knob and was howling with pain)

    Things that make me think it isn't AS:
    1. He's extremely expressive, and animated. He does a fabulous job of reading stories aloud to his younger siblings and knows how to change pitch and volume to distinguish characters and emotion. He was even chosen by Amazon.com as a Harry Potter Kid correspondent based on a video audition last summer. So he definitely doesn't have that "flat affect" or monotone voice.

    I know that no one here can make a diagnosis. I think I was just looking for a little guidance.

    I do have one specific question. When I asked him about the finger flapping, he explained it to me in great detail. He said that he had figured out that there are 12 possible combinations of finger snapping, and he works systematically through all of them. Then he slowly showed me how he did it. He also explained that he doesn't always start with the same combination. He does it pretty constantly now. So�what do other people with Asperger's Syndrome say about their finger flapping? How do they explain it? (or do they even know they do it?)

    Thank you,
    Julie


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    Hi and welcome! I have no advice. I did have a friend whose PG son is AS. He would develop stims (hand waving etc) and they would go away for a time, then return in some other fashion. Just from what you wrote, it doesn't sound like your son's flapping is a stim. It's a concious things he is doing b/c he's amused by it. My friend's son's stims were uncontrollable and I think he mostly was unaware of even doing it. He certainly couldn't control it like your son seems to be able to. Again, I know nothing about this but that is what popped into my head when I read your post.

    I also don't think you can go by him being expressive and animated to rule out AS. From what I've read it seems to be more so inappropriate response to things (such as the laughing), inability to read social cues, etc. rather than how the person expresses himself. But I could be totally wrong.

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    Well, thank you for, at least giving me a vocabulary word, "Stims" to look up. A google searchg for "Stims Asperger's" has already opened a door for more information. In my quick research though, the "stims" do appear to be voluntary and controlled. Apparently they are even used as positive reinforcements, as in, "You can flap your fingers when you finish your math." Again, thanks for even giving me something to look up.

    I am now wondering how thumb sucking fits into this. My son sucked his thumb until he was 6 and a half. We told him that the dentist was going to make him quit when he turned 7, so he just quit. just like that.

    Last edited by greenpalm; 06/14/08 09:41 AM.
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    lol even when I'm wrong, I'm helpful! ha ha ha

    I hope someone else has more (accurate) info for you. It certainly sounds like a tough situation.

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    My DS7--who is HG+ and definitely not an AS kid--quit sucking his thumb immediately when the dentist told him to stop. He was 3 or 3.5yo at the time, and he literally never put his thumb in his mouth again after the dentist said to stop.

    I don't know that this means anything in your son's case, but I think it might indicate that such a behavior isn't necessarily AS-related.

    Granted, we have engineers on both sides of the family, so it's possible that we're all semi-near that end of the spectrum. But no one would look at DS7 and ID him as having AS. No one.

    Don't know if that helps at all...


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    I can't offer any help on AS, knowing nothing about it. But, soemone mentioned social cues and in other thread, advice was given about Central Auditory Processing Disorder. Again, I don't know much about it, but it is a hearing disorder in the way the brain processes the information it hears. That's probably a poor description, but it might be something worth researching. I think there is good information about it at the Gifted Development Center website.

    Welcome. I hope you find some answers.

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    Hi Julie-

    I have a son (YS alum) who has AS. I don't want to get too detailed here, in respect for his privacy, but you can send me a private message if you want.

    I think from what you've described, it would be a good idea to seek the opinion of an experienced neuropsychologist. My son wasn't diagnosed until 13, though we had all the telltale symptoms identified long before that. The younger you catch a problem, the sooner you can get help in place for him, such as social skills training. One of the single greatest regrets of my life is not seeking more answers and services for my son's disability.

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    Hmm�thanks guys! All good food for thought. I do know a bit about CAPD. I used to work for an audiologist, so I'm at least reasonably familiar with it. I don't think he has auditory issues at all. In fact, his learning style is extremely auditory. He's almost freaky sometimes, like a tape recorder.

    I just wondered if Aspergers folks are more likely to suck their thumbs or if they were more likely to replace thumbsucking with something else. Obviously lots of kids suck their thumbs and don't have Aspergers. I just wondered if there was any correlation at all. Good to know the way he quit so quickly wasn't related. We never bugged him about it. It was clearly a very good coping skill for him so I just let him suck away. Sometimes, I even told him to "get your thumb." Because I knew it would help.

    Also, my brother's oldest son is Aspie too, but my brother and I don't talk much to each other so, I feel a little weird asking him.

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    Originally Posted by greenpalm
    I just wondered if Aspergers folks are more likely to suck their thumbs or if they were more likely to replace thumbsucking with something else. Obviously lots of kids suck their thumbs and don't have Aspergers. I just wondered if there was any correlation at all.


    This I don't know. Sorry!

    Originally Posted by greenpalm
    Good to know the way he quit so quickly wasn't related.


    Well, at least I wouldn't assume that it's related. At least you know that some non-AS kids do this, too.

    It is hard to tease it all apart, isn't it?

    Since you're homeschooling, I assume your son is sufficiently challenged, right? I was just thinking that the inappropriate anger could be a result of being underchallenged and frustrated...


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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Well, at least I wouldn't assume that it's related. At least you know that some non-AS kids do this, too.

    It is hard to tease it all apart, isn't it?

    Yes, it really is. He actually does very well here at home. I think we've kind of custom made his academic setting for him. He's not perfect, but his behavior problems really only crop up when I take him to group activities. In those settings, he has trouble. It's extremely stressful for me. So much so, that I just avoid it. Let's see if I can make a few points to describe what I mean.

    1. He was thrown out of a science camp when he was 5. He was "mocking" the teacher (imitating her unusual accent). She thought he was being rude. I knew that he just likes to repeat things he finds auditorily interesting. He was also under the table and didn't want to "join in." I just took him out of the class, it wasn't a good fit anyway. Similarly he likes to repeat the way his piano teacher says, "bag." She's from Minnesota so she says it differently from we Texans.

    2. At his museum homeschool class, his teacher approached me and said that he annoyed the other children. She says that he seems to want to be friendly, but doesn't seem to know how. I did my best to be responsive. I contacted our DISD family consultant. Of course, I talked to him about it.

    3. He was in a Spanish Immersion preschool a couple days a week when he was 3. I stood behind the door and watched one day. He never joined the circle, he hung back and didn't join in group activities. The teacher had to pick him up and take him to the bathroom while the other children walked in a line there together. He never once used the bathroom while he was there. I had to start offering him rewards to get him to go, and even then he waited until the last possible moment before I came to get him and then he would go, which defeated the purpose. He was holding it for 6 hours.

    4. Even as a toddler, he resisted joining the group at Gymboree.

    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Since you're homeschooling, I assume your son is sufficiently challenged, right? I was just thinking that the inappropriate anger could be a result of being underchallenged and frustrated...

    Actually, the anger usually results in frustration because: he doesn't want to try, he thinks he isn't good at something, something is harder than he expected, someone is doing something better than he is doing it. That last on is one situation where I can clearly see a lack of empathy (and perhaps Aspie). He does not enjoy playing a game for the companionship or company. He seems to approach competitions as if the only value they could possibly have for him is winning. This is true even if we repeat the game several times and he wins some and doesn't win others. If he loses, or even comes close to losing he quits, except that I won't let him. I remind him that everyone wants to win. I point out to him that each of us won once, but he's just furious anyway. I haven't abandoned this lesson, but it's proving to be a very hard slow lesson. Lately I've been pointing out when other kids show empathy and concern. I've been spelling out how they probably feel. He seems to understand their feelings when I describe them this way. I mentioned the Harry Potter contest in my previous post. That's a good example of his ability to show empathy in certain circumstances, and how in contrasts with his inability to perceive other people's feelings in other situations. Like the yesterday when his brother was hurt. I said to him (not angrily, just pointing it out), "It's not funny, he is hurt. He is crying because it really hurt his eye." Then my son was more understanding, but this situation really seems to fit the Aspie thing because I had to tell him, "He's hurt." It's like, it wasn't enough to just see him crying.

    Another example, and this is in contrast to his brother. His brother will come to the kitchen and ask for a cookie. Then he will ask if he can take one to his brother too. In contrast, my older son, Kenneth, will come to the kitchen for a cookie, and it will never occur to him to take a cookie to Reid. He will happily do it if I ask him to, he just doesn't think about it on his own.

    I don't know, I feel like I could write and write and write. He's very loving, and affectionate. He likes to be hugged and picked up and he can be very cuddly. So, it's just so hard. His IQ is so high, that I've always known he wouldn't be "normal." So, it's tricky for me to know what's PG "normal." and what's not. Going to the DITD gatherings has helped me somewhat, because he is different, even there. He behaves "oddly" even there. He fits in better, but he's not "just like" the other kids, even in that exclusively PG setting.

    Last edited by greenpalm; 06/14/08 12:53 PM.
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