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    #177493 12/17/13 07:51 PM
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    I hope you don't mind if I vent here. I'm feeling so frustrated with ds12's school for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here. This is about math.

    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There are over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI. He has always hated timed tests. He basically freezes up when the pressure's on.
    Because of the speed factor, he's never felt confident in math despite getting As in previous years. I've been trying to teach him that fast in math doesn't necessary mean good, and conversely, slow in math doesn't mean bad.

    He skipped 6th grade math because he's grade advanced (his fifth grade math teacher felt certain he could do it with no problems) and he's in a compacted 7th/8th math class. It's been a challenge so far because he's learning things at the speed of light, but he loves the challenge and the teacher.

    I happened to write to the teacher to thank her for helping him to love math again and I told her how minute math back in 2nd grade had turned him off and made him lose his confidence. Five days later, she gives the class four math minutes tests to be counted toward the final grade. DS couldn't finish them so of course they lowered his grade.
    On top of that, the teacher gave them all a 0 on a test because they'd been talking. (Only half the class had been talking and ds was not one of them.) So she ripped up all twenty-plus papers and gave them all fs.

    I told ds I didn't care about the low minute math grades. I told him it's more important to be accurate than fast in math. It's hard for him to see that though. He said to me tonight< "It's obvious it does matter, mom. Look at the grades I got on them."

    I'm so frustrated. I thought they'd be beyond the minute math by now.

    Am I looking at this the wrong way? Should I expect ds to be faster? I think in 2nd grade he did minute math the whole year and never improved his speed.

    Last edited by KADmom; 12/21/13 05:52 AM.
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    They ought to be. I am just feeling the bile rise thinking about this. I have a ds13, who was pretty much in the same boat with minute math, why why WHY do teachers/schools persist with these?

    I know some kids do great with these, but that doesn't mean they necessarily are going to tear up the rest of the math curriculum, and so many kids who do well with math concepts seem to get beat about the head an shoulders with this minute / timed math testing to the point of hating math, that it seems extremely clear it is bad news.

    I recommend you at least inquire with the teacher/school to see if your child can opt out of these. It worked for us.


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    My son gets extra time for these. Others have to do it in a minute he gets a minute and half. Sometimes he needs the half sometimes not.

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    She ripped up their papers and gave them all an f? Sounds like she gets an f for maturity.

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    No good suggestions except to try and talk with the teacher.

    I really hate teachers who punish the whole class, attempting to use peer pressure to punish a few. It doesn't work and it sends the wrong message in my opinion.

    As to the timed tests, I remember HATING this in 6th grade myself. I never did well on them, yet I ended up on the advanced math track. My son has never done well with this kind of timed test either. He dislikes chess because a chess club I had him try insisted the kids use timers. Thankfully son was in a dedicated gifted class and by 7th grade was taking algebra with a wonderful teacher and didn't have to put up with this.

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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    I happened to write to the teacher to thank her for helping him to love math again and I told her how minute math back in 2nd grade had turned him off and made him lose his confidence. Five days later, she gives the class four math minutes tests to be counted toward the final grade... I'm so frustrated. I thought they'd be beyond the minute math by now.
    I share your frustration.

    The timing of the teacher administering minute math mere days after your note to her, raises a question in my mind as to whether this was coincidental. Do you know any parent whose student was in this teacher's 7/8 class last year... could you casually ask them if minute math was a graded component of last year's class? Does your school have an online grade book? If it does, can all graded tasks be viewed? If they can, do the teachers pre-load the tasks for the term, or do tasks appear at random times such as the day they occur or after-the-fact? Is minute math listed as a graded task in the grade book?

    While some are tireless advocates for all kids including gifted kids to learn to the best of their abilities, there are some who are intent on closing the achievement gap (or excellence gap) by undermining gifts and talents. Additionally, there are some teachers earning advanced degrees and performing research experiments on their unsuspecting students. Not saying either of these things are occurring here, but it is something which parents may want to keep in the back of their minds.

    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Should I expect ds to be faster?
    Gaining speed in math may be impacted by the low average processing speed you mentioned. As a separate issue, gaining confidence and skill in test-taking ability may be key.

    Just curious, have you looked online for one minute math exercises? I found an online test which was friendly in that it only graded what I completed, and gave me positive feedback (as opposed to marking any blank/unfinished problems as incorrect). smile (link- http://www.webmathminute.com/)

    Wish I had better answers to share with you.

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    I've never heard the term "minute math" before, but it doesn't sound so bad, as long as it isn't overdone.

    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI.

    My DS's processing speed is low average. It is over 4 standard deviations lower than his math fluency. So low processing speed isn't necessarily a handicap when it comes to timed math tests.

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    Originally Posted by 22B
    I've never heard the term "minute math" before, but it doesn't sound so bad, as long as it isn't overdone.

    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI.

    My DS's processing speed is low average. It is over 4 standard deviations lower than his math fluency. So low processing speed isn't necessarily a handicap when it comes to timed math tests.

    I'm sure not, but it is in ds's case. I've seen it in action: pressure makes him shut down.

    Minute math may seem innocuous, and in the early years it may well be. It's supposed to prove that a student is comfortable enough with their math facts that they can be retrieved automatically. When the student is in the later grades, I would think it's no longer necessary to prove that and what it does is reinforce the misconception that one must be quick in math to be proficient. It's simply not true.

    Last edited by KADmom; 12/18/13 06:17 AM.
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    I hate the timed testing too. I kind of understand why they do it.
    On the other it should NOT be part of final a grade, or graded at all.
    It would sure take the pressure off and make it your own personal achievement.

    I too wonder about the timing.


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    http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/PISA-2012-results-US.pdf

    This might be of interest. Especially this paragraph:

    "Students in the United States have particular strengths in cognitively less-demanding mathematical skills
    and abilities, such as extracting single values from diagrams or handling well-structured formulae. They
    have particular weaknesses in items with higher cognitive demands, such as taking real-world situations,
    translating them into mathematical terms, and interpreting mathematical aspects in real-world problems."

    This really rings a bell for me. Math is too often regarded as a set of facts and procedures to remember, and to quickly recall. This is not the essence of math. Speed has little to do with math. Period. Especially in an environment where students learned their math facts and then never go to a math class without a calculator. I'd rather the teachers/schools/educators in general less obsessed about memorizing computational facts at an early age, but instead let students do their own calculations from K to 12 without using calculators. This way the facts are gradually built and used and reinforced and no one sweats over how many seconds it takes to complete a work sheet.

    My kids are not slow calculators, but are not super fast either. I hear my DD8 tell me that she is not the best math student in class because who and who finish the minute math quicker. I just tell her that one can be good without being quick (she is doing middle school math at home).

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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    I hope you don't mind if I vent here. I'm feeling so frustrated with ds12's school for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here. This is about math.

    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI. He has always hated timed tests. He basically freezes up when the pressure's on.
    Because of the speed factor, he's never felt confident in math despite getting As in previous years. I've been trying to teach him that fast in math doesn't necessary mean good, and conversely, slow in math doesn't mean bad.
    Since both class tests and standardized tests are timed, speed is important. To do algebra quickly you need to know your math facts cold. If 7th graders don't know their addition and multiplication tables, I think it is appropriate for the teacher to quiz them.

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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Originally Posted by 22B
    I've never heard the term "minute math" before, but it doesn't sound so bad, as long as it isn't overdone.

    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI.

    My DS's processing speed is low average. It is over 4 standard deviations lower than his math fluency. So low processing speed isn't necessarily a handicap when it comes to timed math tests.

    I'm sure not, but it is in ds's case. I've seen it in action: pressure makes him shut down.

    Minute math may seem innocuous, and in the early years it may well be. It's supposed to prove that a student is comfortable enough with their math facts that they can be retrieved automatically. When the student is in the later grades, I would think it's no longer necessary to prove that and what it does is reinforce the misconception that one must be quick in math to be proficient. It's simply not true.


    Can you suggest that your son be allowed to establish a "personal best" time for completion?

    Honestly-- doing that makes a WORLD of difference with DD and I both on these {muttering curse} things.

    It's not that we CANNOT do them in the allotted time-- it's that the pressure is so extreme and our perfectionistic tendencies so profound, that we tend to freeze like deer in headlights, watching the CLOCK as much as using metacognition to monitor our own task-performance.

    Neither one of us has a processing speed problem. Only an anxiety one associated with this kind of nonsense.

    When I saw that developing in DD, I refused to have her do any more of this "60 seconds to complete this sheet" baloney.

    She WAS able to do it as "when you're finished, write down the time on the timer" and we'd compare how much FASTER she was getting with time.

    Mentally, that one subtle shift was a complete game changer for her-- it felt less punitive (Oh, look, you FAILED to finish 'in time') and more rewarding (Look-- ten seconds faster than last week!).



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    Originally Posted by Bostonian
    Originally Posted by KADmom
    I hope you don't mind if I vent here. I'm feeling so frustrated with ds12's school for a variety of reasons which I won't go into here. This is about math.

    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI. He has always hated timed tests. He basically freezes up when the pressure's on.
    Because of the speed factor, he's never felt confident in math despite getting As in previous years. I've been trying to teach him that fast in math doesn't necessary mean good, and conversely, slow in math doesn't mean bad.
    Since both class tests and standardized tests are timed, speed is important. To do algebra quickly you need to know your math facts cold. If 7th graders don't know their addition and multiplication tables, I think it is appropriate for the teacher to quiz them.

    Bostonian, I do understand that. However, this is an advanced math group. They know their facts. Ds knows his facts cold. His mind freezes under pressure. I know it's a hard thing to understand unless you've seen it first hand or experience it yourself. My dh has a similar reaction to pressure. He's a brilliant man and a methodical thinker. When we would get together with couples and play password, I could never understand why urging him to hurry up had the opposite effect. Now, seeing it in ds, it's all clicked.

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    Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Originally Posted by 22B
    I've never heard the term "minute math" before, but it doesn't sound so bad, as long as it isn't overdone.

    Originally Posted by KADmom
    Some background: ds's processing speed is low average. There is over 4 standard deviations between that and his VCI.

    My DS's processing speed is low average. It is over 4 standard deviations lower than his math fluency. So low processing speed isn't necessarily a handicap when it comes to timed math tests.

    I'm sure not, but it is in ds's case. I've seen it in action: pressure makes him shut down.

    Minute math may seem innocuous, and in the early years it may well be. It's supposed to prove that a student is comfortable enough with their math facts that they can be retrieved automatically. When the student is in the later grades, I would think it's no longer necessary to prove that and what it does is reinforce the misconception that one must be quick in math to be proficient. It's simply not true.


    Can you suggest that your son be allowed to establish a "personal best" time for completion?

    Honestly-- doing that makes a WORLD of difference with DD and I both on these {muttering curse} things.

    It's not that we CANNOT do them in the allotted time-- it's that the pressure is so extreme and our perfectionistic tendencies so profound, that we tend to freeze like deer in headlights, watching the CLOCK as much as using metacognition to monitor our own task-performance.

    Neither one of us has a processing speed problem. Only an anxiety one associated with this kind of nonsense.

    When I saw that developing in DD, I refused to have her do any more of this "60 seconds to complete this sheet" baloney.

    She WAS able to do it as "when you're finished, write down the time on the timer" and we'd compare how much FASTER she was getting with time.

    Mentally, that one subtle shift was a complete game changer for her-- it felt less punitive (Oh, look, you FAILED to finish 'in time') and more rewarding (Look-- ten seconds faster than last week!).

    This is a creative idea. I may feel her out and see what she thinks. So far I haven't received a response to my first email.

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    Whether you should expect DS to be faster depends on how slow he really is. I believe that the facts do not have to be lightning fast but should be automatic (and thus not take up working memory) prior to Algebra. I am not familiar with minute math but my children have had these 80-100 problems in 5 minutes type sheets throughout elementary. My answer may vary as well depending on whether your DS has a true disability as oppose to a relative weakness.

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    The "Minute Math" or as our local school district labeled it "Math Facts" was for our eldest a high source of frustration, not because of the program but because the teachers kept shoving it down kid's throats for three years even after they'd demonstrated mastery....which is when I informed his teacher he wouldn't be participating in that section of the program any longer, simple as that. I'm simply not wasting his valuable time with it any longer.

    As far as the teacher's actions and grade assignment, these are issues that really require you or some other parent(s) meeting with the teacher first and perhaps administration later if the teacher doesn't understand the error of his / her ways. For starters, tearing up papers is a childish reaction and sets a childish and poor example of how to deal with the teacher's inability to maintain order in his/her own classroom. Certainly the teacher wouldn't approve of me tearing up the papers on his/her desk if he/she talked while I wanted his/her attention would they? Of course not, then don't demonstrate that behavior to children, someone has to be the grown up here, I suggest it be the teacher rather than the children.

    Second, is the test designed to measure work habit or the mathematical ability of the students? Our local school district has adopted a policy that allows teachers to have work habit / behavior be no more than 10% of a student's grade, in this manner, the grade the student receives reflects their abilities, let discipline be handled by school policy, not by an individual teacher's frustration level with a child's behavior.

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    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    80-100 problems in 5 minutes
    100 problems in 5 minutes is 3 seconds per question; The online version I took was 50 problems in 60 seconds, or 1.2 seconds per question. For me, typing was the time constraint. If anyone does the online 50 in 60 and finishes, let us know! Or let us know how many you are able to finish, if you care to.

    OP, how many problems is dd challenged to complete in one minute in school?

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    I got 47 in 60 seconds, mostly because I typoed #47 and tried to go back and fix it. That is pretty hard!

    http://www.webmathminute.com/online.asp

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    I got 20 but I will do it on a computer later - the virtual keyboard on my mobile is a bit limiting.

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    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    80-100 problems in 5 minutes
    100 problems in 5 minutes is 3 seconds per question; The online version I took was 50 problems in 60 seconds, or 1.2 seconds per question. For me, typing was the time constraint. If anyone does the online 50 in 60 and finishes, let us know! Or let us know how many you are able to finish, if you care to.

    OP, how many problems is dd challenged to complete in one minute in school?

    Well as I did further digging, he didn't have to do that many, but they were negative integer problems with multi-digits. And the fewer problems is probably a disadvantage because, for instance, one test he only had one left to do and he got an 85. So...not quite the minute math that he used to do, not as many, but these required more thinking--particularly because he only learned about negative numbers a couple of months ago. Given this, I'm actually impressed he did as well as he did.

    So I guess now I have more of an understanding of why...but I still don't like the message this gives.

    Last edited by KADmom; 12/18/13 05:44 PM.
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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    ... I still don't like the message this gives.
    Agreed! smile

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    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by Quantum2003
    80-100 problems in 5 minutes
    100 problems in 5 minutes is 3 seconds per question; The online version I took was 50 problems in 60 seconds, or 1.2 seconds per question. For me, typing was the time constraint. If anyone does the online 50 in 60 and finishes, let us know! Or let us know how many you are able to finish, if you care to.

    Originally Posted by ElizabethN
    I got 47 in 60 seconds, mostly because I typoed #47 and tried to go back and fix it. That is pretty hard!

    OK, I got 50 in 60 seconds on the second try. It was actually sort of fun, in a twisted sort of way. But I used to be a certified scrutineer for ballroom competitions, so I'm very good with a numeric keypad. I also have the mostly useless skill of being able to listen to someone reciting a list of numbers and put hash marks next to them on a list, while blocking out a competing voice reading a different set of numbers.

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    There are some legitimate criticisms of timed drills depending how they are designed and used.

    But,

    Originally Posted by playandlearn
    Speed has little to do with math. Period.

    No.

    Advanced mathematics can have several layers of complexity, with more complex layers built on simpler ones. To think at a high level you need to be very fluent in the simpler stuff. (You might think all the thought processes could happen in slow motion, but that's difficult in the same way that riding a bike very slowly is difficult.)


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    I guess we will just agree to disagree. I do think it is important to internalize basic facts, however, each person's recall time will still be different even if they all have internalized the facts. I think this is what the OP is getting at. It's not that her kid doesn't know the facts, it sounds like he has a slower recall time.

    I also think, once the basic facts are internalized and students move on to very complex concepts, speed of calculation really takes a very small percentage of the time that one uses to solve a complex problem. The kind of competition math problems that take a couple of hours to solve, if one can solve it, or the kind of math projects that takes a few years to crack, I think very little of the time is used on basic calculation. And whether a person recalls a basic fact in 0.5 seconds or 3 seconds won't make a difference.

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    Originally Posted by playandlearn
    I guess we will just agree to disagree. I do think it is important to internalize basic facts, however, each person's recall time will still be different even if they all have internalized the facts. I think this is what the OP is getting at. It's not that her kid doesn't know the facts, it sounds like he has a slower recall time.

    I also think, once the basic facts are internalized and students move on to very complex concepts, speed of calculation really takes a very small percentage of the time that one uses to solve a complex problem. The kind of competition math problems that take a couple of hours to solve, if one can solve it, or the kind of math projects that takes a few years to crack, I think very little of the time is used on basic calculation. And whether a person recalls a basic fact in 0.5 seconds or 3 seconds won't make a difference.

    Yes, this is what I believe as well.

    http://m.theatlantic.com/education/...ut-math-that-hold-americans-back/281303/

    This may already have been posted here, I can't remember, but I found it last night. I was glad I read it and also thankful I took the attitude I did with ds upon seeing his progress report: that his speed grades weren't important to me and I was impressed with how hard he was working in other areas of math.
    The article mentioned timed tests creating math anxiety. This is what happened to ds. He was identified in first grade for the gifted program, not because of his verbal abilities (tested at 11, his VCI was higher than PRI) but his MATH abilities. Then in second grade, timed tests were introduced and his confidence plummeted. Even if we did them at home, he would freeze. Like HK described, a deer in the headlights. Sometimes to the point he would become angry. I backed off instinctively. I'm soooo glad I did. After that, he had teachers who understood that he wasn't the fastest and he wasn't the slowest in computation, but was highly capable in the other aspects of math.
    I'm just frustrated that after having spoken my joy about ds finally becoming confident in math, this teacher chose to not only give them 4 times tests, but chose to use them as grades as well--something not done before now.

    Last edited by KADmom; 12/19/13 07:33 AM.
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    My son's IEP allows to extra time on timed tests, and it seems like just KNOWING he's got extra time if needed has allowed to do the timed tests without much anxiety. They've been doing "Rocket Math" periodically.


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    My ds's math fact test was also the 100 problems in 5 minutes. Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division up to 12 and had to be mastered by the end of 4th grade. They started the addition and subtraction in 3rd but he was accelerated to 4th in 2nd grade. He struggled at the start and then embraced it. You got to attend an ice cream party if you got 100% on all test at the end of the year.

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    Math teacher here. Fluency and speed are not the same thing. Just like being fluent in Spanish is not the same as being able to speak it really fast. Yes, if you are not fluent you cannot speak fast. But you can be fluent and not be a fast speaker. And, I might add, there is much value in speaking slowly and precisely and precious little in being able to speak fast. This is all analogous to math in the classroom.

    The only thing that you really need to know 'cold' are your times tables. You use them for everything: starting with obviously all multiplication and division, but also fractions, factoring, exponents, and so on. Sure you need to know how to add and subtract without using your fingers, but I don't think you really need to memorize things like adding positive and negative numbers. I still visualize a number line when I do that sort of thing, so technically I am calculating, not regurgitating. And I am pretty good at math!

    Obviously being very slow is a problem. Being average is not. In fact the students who work at a more moderate pace are generally more careful and make fewer careless errors. As the math gets increasingly rigorous, precision is definitely rewarded over speed. And both become decreasingly important in respect to the abstract ideas. As for computation, more than speed, kids need to be able to mentally multitask: Multiply and add/subtract simultaneously for example when you are factoring a trinomial. Fluency is critical for these tasks. Speed is not.

    I teach high school and as much as I *need* kids who know their times tables and complain when they don't, I really don't understand all of these time pressure tests. If a child can successfully perform multidigit multiplication, long division and adding and subtracting fractions with unlike denominators then she knows her times tables. If I were teaching elementary, I would push on to those and let mastery evolve from the constant reinforcement those types of problems provide. It's probably a function of our annual testing cycle that requires 3rd graders to be 'perfect' with their times tables before they move on to the next thing in 4th grade.

    By the time you are in 7th grade advanced math you should be doing algebra. There is no place for speed races at that point, especially with signed numbers. Accuracy, yes. Speed no.

    If it were my kid, I'd be in there wagging my chalky finger at the teacher *and* the principal!

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    let mastery evolve from the constant reinforcement those types of problems provide


    Hear, hear.
    smile

    There is also a huge red flag for this kind of thing if a child is SLOWER under "timed" conditions than NOT.

    In that case, the very act of timing is altering the performance being evaluated.

    Now I suppose that it's fair to argue that we should all be "tough enough" to perform under pressure.

    But let me ask this-- how many "good spellers" can perform well under SPELLING BEE conditions, hmm?

    It's the format that makes the difference.



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    Tortuga, thank you for your perspective.

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    What a lovely, sensible post, tortuga.

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    A deeper understanding of mathematics allows one to mathematically reason much more quickly. This is true at all levels.

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    Originally Posted by tortuga
    Math teacher here. Fluency and speed are not the same thing. Just like being fluent in Spanish is not the same as being able to speak it really fast. Yes, if you are not fluent you cannot speak fast. But you can be fluent and not be a fast speaker. And, I might add, there is much value in speaking slowly and precisely and precious little in being able to speak fast.
    People who think fast and talk fast probably are judged to be more intelligent -- think of the phrases "fast on his feet" or "quick study". The association of speed and intelligence has some justification. As people age, their fluid intelligence declines, and they think more slowly. I've noticed this in my parents, alas. To what extent speed can be developed by drilling is a different question.

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    Originally Posted by 22B
    A deeper understanding of mathematics allows one to mathematically reason much more quickly. This is true at all levels.

    This is true. But its converse -- "Reasoning more quickly in mathematics allows for a deeper understanding" -- is false. These timed tests assume the latter because the former is true and more importantly because timed testing is an easily quantifiable, low-cost measure of 'progress' in an education system that currently rewards schools for performance on short-term metrics. So perhaps a basic failure in logic (assuming a converse to be true) is to blame, which is ironic since logic gets such short shrift in the math curriculum!


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    But with math minute you are not reasoning quickly. You are recalling facts quickly.

    Reasoning and recalling a fact from memory are two different things


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    Originally Posted by Sweetie
    But with math minute you are not reasoning quickly. You are recalling facts quickly.

    Reasoning and recalling a fact from memory are two different things
    Well, yes and no. Why is the 10 times table easier to memorise than the others? Because you don't really memorise it - you understand the numbers well enough that you can work it out very fast. Hands up all those who still don't feel as though they truly recall times table facts from memory, but rather, work them out every time fast enough that it looks to everyone else as though they're recalling them from memory? (My hand is raised, even though as I said elsewhere I think of myself as a slow processor.) [ETA: on second thoughts, this is less true than it used to be before I helped DS learn his tables, actually! I am now wasting several more synapses on this task than I used to ;-) ]

    Reasoning and remembering are really intimately entwined. When you solve a novel problem, you never approach it completely from first principles: part of what you're doing is allowing your memory to bubble up possible approaches that have helped with similar problems in the past. To over-simplify, there are two ways to be bad at problem solving in maths:

    1) too much reliance on memory: being unable to solve any problem that isn't extremely similar to something you've solved in the past

    2) too little reliance on memory: being overwhelmed by the need to work out anew a strategy for doing every tiny piece of arithmetic that comes up in the course of doing the problem.

    Times tables and other number facts are about as far on the memory end as it's possible to go, but even there, I bet if we had the neuroscience to be sure, we'd see that logical reasoning plays a role even there for many people. And a key thing for mathy children who hate memorising is: this is fine. If you can get the answers fast enough and easily enough that it looks as though you have them memorised and working them out doesn't slow you down, that's OK. And practising strategies so that you get that fast is worthwhile in that it deepens your understanding of how numbers work, in a way that "dumb" memorising isn't.

    Last edited by ColinsMum; 12/29/13 10:15 AM.

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    Yesterday ds looked at this sample ACT question and was not told how to solve it.

    The lead of a screw is the distance that the screw advances in a straight line when the screw is turned 1 complete turn. The screw is 2 1/2 inches long and has a lead of 1/8 inch. How many complete turns would get it all the way into a piece of wood.

    Once he'd read the problem it took him about two seconds to figure it out and solve it. He did it in his head and he was correct.

    This morning I randomly asked him, while he was on minecraft, to tell me what 8 times 7 is and it took him about 2 seconds to answer.

    I don't know what this means other than when he's relaxed and confident he can think deeply in math.
    As for the timed recall, I imagine if he hadn't been distracted by minecraft and I had told him to hurry up, or told him he was being timed, it may have taken him longer.

    Conversely, I am very fast in recalling times tables. I could have said the answer in a fraction of a second. But it would have taken me longer to think about the problem above and solve it.

    And I want to add, I'm so grateful for all the responses this thread received. This particular subject I feel passionate about because I've known for years that ds is gifted in math but his confidence has slowly been eroded over the years through timed tests and the assumption that fast means good and slow means bad.

    I've been working with him, a little bit every day, about ten minutes at most, because his math avoidance is so prevalent and strong.

    Two days ago he gave me a hug and thanked me for working with him. And the best thing ever was the moment when he told me he loved math.

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    Originally Posted by KADmom
    This morning I randomly asked him, while he was on minecraft, to tell me what 8 times 7 is and it took him about 2 seconds to answer.
    You sure he wasn't still thinking about Minecraft for 1.95 of those seconds, lol? Mine would have been...Then he'd have asked what the question was again.


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    Yes!! lol! I'm sure he was.

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    Originally Posted by tortuga
    Originally Posted by 22B
    A deeper understanding of mathematics allows one to mathematically reason much more quickly. This is true at all levels.
    This is true. But its converse -- "Reasoning more quickly in mathematics allows for a deeper understanding" -- is false. These timed tests assume the latter because the former is true and more importantly because timed testing is an easily quantifiable, low-cost measure of 'progress' in an education system that currently rewards schools for performance on short-term metrics. So perhaps a basic failure in logic (assuming a converse to be true) is to blame, which is ironic since logic gets such short shrift in the math curriculum!
    I would say that if someone tried to measure future advanced mathematical ability by testing speedy arithmetic in kids, then there would be unacceptably too much "noise" compared to the "signal" they are trying to measure. But nevertheless there is a signal there whereby some people have certain characteristics that enable them to have advanced mathematical ability in the future, and those same characteristics enable them to be speedy at arithmetic as kids.

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    Originally Posted by ColinsMum
    Originally Posted by Sweetie
    But with math minute you are not reasoning quickly. You are recalling facts quickly.

    Reasoning and recalling a fact from memory are two different things
    Well, yes and no. Why is the 10 times table easier to memorise than the others? Because you don't really memorise it - you understand the numbers well enough that you can work it out very fast. Hands up all those who still don't feel as though they truly recall times table facts from memory, but rather, work them out every time fast enough that it looks to everyone else as though they're recalling them from memory? (My hand is raised, even though as I said elsewhere I think of myself as a slow processor.) [ETA: on second thoughts, this is less true than it used to be before I helped DS learn his tables, actually! I am now wasting several more synapses on this task than I used to ;-) ]

    Reasoning and remembering are really intimately entwined. When you solve a novel problem, you never approach it completely from first principles: part of what you're doing is allowing your memory to bubble up possible approaches that have helped with similar problems in the past. To over-simplify, there are two ways to be bad at problem solving in maths:

    1) too much reliance on memory: being unable to solve any problem that isn't extremely similar to something you've solved in the past

    2) too little reliance on memory: being overwhelmed by the need to work out anew a strategy for doing every tiny piece of arithmetic that comes up in the course of doing the problem.

    Times tables and other number facts are about as far on the memory end as it's possible to go, but even there, I bet if we had the neuroscience to be sure, we'd see that logical reasoning plays a role even there for many people. And a key thing for mathy children who hate memorising is: this is fine. If you can get the answers fast enough and easily enough that it looks as though you have them memorised and working them out doesn't slow you down, that's OK. And practising strategies so that you get that fast is worthwhile in that it deepens your understanding of how numbers work, in a way that "dumb" memorising isn't.

    I basically agree with this, and I would add:

    A mathy person might instantly know when asked for 7*9 that 7*9=63, but it is not mere recollection of an isolated fact, and it's not a brand new calculation either. They have pre-computed it and thought about it in various ways previously and made many related interconnections. They are familiar with arithmetic progressions 49 56 63 70 77 and 45 54 63 72 81 and they know 7*9=8^2-1 and 7*9=100-30-10+3 and so on. They don't merely "memorize" 7*9=63. The memory is reinforced via multiple interconnections. This way of thinking helps in more advanced mathematics too.


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    I'm not a mathy person and so didn't know those. Very cool!! smile

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