Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Underachievement success stories?

Hi - am wondering if anyone has or knows of success stories re addressing underachievement? There seems to be plenty of info discussing the issue, but not so much by way of practical, proven advice (recognising that kids are all different - am looking for gleams of hope as much as anything).

DS is 11 and things seem to be getting worse rather than better, making us all unhappy. Admittedly we've had some other reasonably hefty things going on, but still. I'm increasingly worried that, given his age, he might be on a path that's difficult to reverse, and so would really like to hear some first hand stories of underachievement being turned around.

Thanks in anticipation...

Thankfully I know many success stories. I definitely do not think 11 is too old--actually I think middle school is the best time b/c most of issues come out in middle school and you have time before high school to address them. I will say that at this age the reversal will be a lot of work on your part, and likely cause both of you a lot of tears and angst, but will be well worth it in the end. The common key seems to be two fold--first, identifying not only what the underachievement is but why is it causing such distress, and second is to find out what his "turning point" is to then engage him in something more meaningful/purposeful that he can run with and ultimately succeed.

Not sure if you want to provide more details, but hopefully there is a gleam of hope in there. Good luck!

for our kid (at 5) it was a desire to blend in that was causing it. at first, her teachers never offered her anything appropriate and everything was easy for her, but she could see the other kids had to struggle with the material, so she hid her ability. when this finally came to light, the teachers didn't want to believe it, so DD had to "prove" herself to them. when she did, they offered her "differentiated" work - which wasn't accelerated, there was just more of it and she was expected to complete it faster, and always perfectly. so she decided it was better to not bother.

like mykids so wisely mentions - finding the "turning point" was key. i realized that for DD5, she needed to get back in touch with who she really is - what she really loves - and get comfortable with that again. all the underachieving (and other negative) behaviours were about projecting what she thought her teachers/peers wanted from her. so we're working on that - and (here's the success part for you!) it's starting to come back. suddenly she's not minding being the youngest (by 2-3 years) in all her extra-curricular classes - she's starting to understand that being ready for some things early is not wrong - it's what's normal for her.

I also started going downhill in 6th grade. I'm a girl and can honestly say for me it was totally driven by wanting to be accepted socially. It didn't work anyway, sadly. I did manage to eke out a degree and I'm a very happy SAHM, but I still feel some frustration that I could have done more with my education, given my intellect.

What I wish my parents would have done was make me toe the line. I wish they would have actually checked that I did my homework (instead of just asking if I did it) I wish they would have helped me to find clubs that I fit in with. They did help me by finding better schools for me, but that meant that I changed schools a lot. Once to a magnet in middle school and then to private after my freshman year of high school. Both changes were for the better, but they were too late socially. Kids establish their groups in 6th and 9th in the US and I was a year too late with both changes. I think that's important.

I can't speak for your son, but what I wish my parents would have done would be to be obnoxiously involved on a daily basis. They were very detached. That approach didn't help me.

Note "Loc: Australia" so they don't have the US "middle school".

OP, what grade, school-type is it?

Watch out for peer pressure, bullying, general school apathy (including school staff).

Remind your DS11 that these people are just temporarily the people around him. His education will stay with him when they're long gone from his life. It's the education that counts.

I also started underachieving in 6th grade (age 11). I got mostly Ds and Fs in grades 7-9 and then changed schools and did somewhat better because I was happier (for nonacademic reasons). But I still would get Ds in classes I didn't like. This continued until I was in my third year of college when I switched majors to something I found quite challenging (biochemistry) and decided I wanted to apply to MD-PhD programs. I managed to get As in all of my biology and biochemistry courses, though my extremely weak math background made it impossible for me to do well in any math-based courses.

I think the reason for my underachievement was a mixture of extreme boredom, executive functioning issues, and a touch of unremediated dyslexia.

I love this. I think you handled it extremely well and that your approach will serve your daughter well in the future. I think this kind of parenting would have made a significant difference for me as a middle-schooler.

To the OP I think that in addition to specifically GT stuff, for parents of middle schoolers I believe the book Hold on to Your Kids is a must read. And for GT, I don't know if you have read the book Living with Intensity but I think it really helps in understanding ourselves and our kids. There is a version for teenagers that my daughter liked.
http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Teens-Guide-Living-Intensity/dp/1935067001

Hi BKD. If you are happy to give a few details that might help with more specific advice and stories. 11 is a tough age. If your DS is in a bricks and mortar school and has reached the top of the primary grades, that can be a time when interest in school can slip. Things can pick up when the challenge of High School kicks in. Just the process of High School and more independence can help reignite interest in some kids. But, they need to be challenged as the superficial charge from changing schools doesn't last.
We found with DD 12 that not being challenged leads to all kinds of problems with self efficacy and self concept. Over coming that is hard work but is possible.

Thank you so much for posting master of none, made me want to cry. It's so true! We have to parent and it is hard work and tough love and we doubt ourselves and what we are doing. Well done. We are walking a similar path.

Big hugs BKD. a few books that you can get on Amazon including kindle versions are:
Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades and What You Can Do About It by Dr Sylvia Rimm
The Underachieving Gifted Child: Recognizing, Understanding and Reversing Underachievement by Del Siegle
When Gifted Kids Don't Have All the Answers: How to Meet Their Social and Emotional Needs by Jim Delisle and James Galbraith. Good chapter on underachievers versus selective consumers!

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses.

Squishys, Saritz and Kai - your stories sound like mine. And if there was one standout thing I wanted for my own children it was that they not have my experience of school. But he sounded just like me when he was talking about it - "so boring", "I don't care about those dumb things", "I hate school and I'm going to drop out as soon as I can". Etc.

As some have noted, we've got a differed system here, so he's just about to go into his last year in primary school, and then it's high school. So this last report really mattered in terms of our chances of getting into a decent high school. He's dropped from an A/B to a B/C and now to a C/D, with a lot of teachers' comments about talking in class and not working. Part of the reason he was upset with those comments was that he's apparently (didn't discuss with me) deliberately moved himself away from friends in the last few months so that he could concentrate more in class, but it obviously wasn't (soon?) enough to make a difference.

We changed schools at the beginning of the year to a more academic school that offered a multi-age class, and it seemed to be an improvement. This sudden drop has come as a shock to us all, but it's the last week of school so too late to ask any questions this year. Among my questions would be the discrepancies between his class report and the results of our national standardised testing. I'd like to know how a kid who scores out of assessed range for reading and maths in that testing only gets Cs in classwork.

I think it's a mix of problems - partly he's genuinely uninterested (and honestly I have to sympathise), partly he's a little daunted because the standard at this school is slightly higher and he'd lost a bit of ground in some subjects at the previous school. And partly he has absolutely no work ethic, which I need to address in a big way. Although will be battling the influence of the other parent on that one, which will be a large and ongoing problem. His father has very significant stress management problems (PTSD), to the degree that the boys are now living with me full time. But the influence is still considerable, and giving up/making excuses/retreating to TV or video games is the response of choice.

MON, I'm really drawn to the idea of talking things through with him and letting him make his own choices, as I'm not a naturally authoritarian parent either. But like you I think that the only thing I can do now is really come down firmly (on the father as well as the children). So what I'm currently leaning towards is maths tutoring in the holidays to bring him up to a really good standard, so that he's got at least one subject to feel confident about initially. Intrusive homework/project monitoring. Hotline to the teacher if she's willing, though really I don't have much faith in the education system any more. And quite possibly some draconian rules around TV and computer use.

Am anticipating ugly scenes and needing to meditate *a lot*. I just wish I could feel a little more confident that I'll be able to make a difference.

Deacongirl - thanks for the reference, I'll chase the book tomorrow.

Agreed! Some may say school staff (teachers, admins, GT) may be the number one source of negative peer pressure, bullying, and apathy as they may quickly induce guilt/shame for being gifted. This may be done publicly in the classroom, triggering exclusion, objectifying the gifted student, and implying that the gifted student "owes" more than an even division of labor on group work. Other students may feel they have tacit approval for non-performance on group work and may slack off considerably, expecting the gifted student to fill in for them without complaint. The gifted student may then be blamed for poor attitude regarding group work experiences, upon any attempt to discuss the truth of the group dynamics. Learning environments which are moving more quickly to embrace a model guaranteeing equal outcomes may exert greater pressure in this area.

Another source of negativity may be parents who'd like the gifted child as a foil, drawing attention to and highlighting their own child's greater accomplishment/achievement in a particular area. Once again the gifted child is treated as an object, being used for another's purpose, without regard to their own feelings, beliefs, preferences, or strengths.

Underachievement as it relates to motivation and enthusiasm is covered beautifully in the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children. Chapter 4 discusses that a person is always motivated toward something, however that motivation may not be toward what the parents may like. In the examples above, the child may be motivated toward being regarded as a self-determining person, having some control over their circumstances, not having others ride their back over the finish line. Page 145 in Chapter 6 of A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children shares:

Agreed. I would add the caveat that the child's education includes what one absorbs from the learning environment: power, politics of the system, and the sense of being objectified may all impact the child's sense of self-worth and have lasting effect on how the individual approaches/avoids situations and interacts with others throughout the lifespan. These sayings come to mind: "Once burned, twice shy"... "Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me." On a positive note, page 145 of A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children shares,
Long story short, considering the source(s) of underachievement in any particular case may be instrumental to understanding the student and supporting them in creating strategies which will better serve them. I believe others have said and I'll repeat that underachievement is not the problem but an observable symptom that there is a problem which needs to be addressed. Underachievement may be a person's maladaptive approach to solving the problem because they do not know a better way to solve it; the kiddo may need help in identifying the underlying problem and support in finding ways to resolve it. This reminds me of the recent thread on DSH, where one resource related DSH to unresolved conflict.

You may enjoy insights gained from reading the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children. Combined with the BTDT examples from posters on the forum, applied in a way which supports the kiddo, appeals to a kiddo's reasoning, and encourages the kiddo to take charge... may be surprisingly easy to implement and have lasting results: in general they may need to be, feel, and act empowered, not powerless.

I can say that I've seen a number of cases of high-ability underachievers who turned themselves around and led highly productive, enriching lives, and those turnarounds began in early adulthood. So in my experience, 11 is definitely not to young.

I met these guys while in the Navy. I worked in a highly-technical field, in which two years' worth of college electronics is compressed into 36 weeks, testing is every week, 75% is the cut-off for failure, there were significant deterrents to failure (nighttime remediation, held back in school longer, eventually kicked out to join the fleet in a paint-chipping role), and significant motivation to compete for excellence (ranking by class averages, first in line to choose next duty station).

Needless to say, this environment sorts out much of the chaff. Within this group I found a subgroup of young men who were clearly my peers... similar in interests, abilities, etc. I just assumed that they breezed through K-12 with as little effort as necessary to stay on the honor role, as I did, but much of the high-ability group had instead breezed by with as little effort as necessary to avoid repeating a grade. They cut 15-20 classes a quarter, didn't do homework, or copied from a friend, etc.

One of the guys had appeared one time too many in front of the judge on minor issues, and when he got accidentally swept up in the search for the perp of a big one, he was given the option of joining any military branch that would get him out of the state, or going to jail. Today, he is running the QA department of a manufacturer of extremely sensitive commercial aircraft equipment.

It would be easy to associate the turnaround with the authoritative nature of the military. But it would be dead wrong. One trait these guys all shared was a disregard for authority. Anyone who tried shouting an order at these guys would find themselves regretting it sooner or later. That wasn't something generally done in the technical fields anyway, because when you need talented people, you have to treat them a certain way to get them to do their best. There was a whole different culture in the electronics shops than, say, the engine room. But if an engineering officer found himself in charge of a detail with one of these guys, and started shouting orders, these guys would respond with passive resistance, then later create a situation in which the engineering officer made himself look really, really bad.

Based on this experience, I'd advise that anyone who is currently dealing with a child 11 or older that has tuned out the authority of the teachers to strongly reconsider adopting an authoritative approach as a possible solution. The child is already against what seems to be commands to perform useless and pointless tasks. If you start adding your voice to that of the teachers, you're only making yourself part of their problem.

So... what really turned these guys' lives around?

The work.

The work was interesting, challenging, and important. People's lives and millions of dollars depended on the state of the equipment, and how they performed their jobs to maintain it. These same guys who wouldn't invest five minutes to iron a uniform shirt would work 36 hours straight to resolve an equipment problem, and good luck pulling them away to get some sleep. Offer to call in civilian technical resources to assist, though, and you'll get yelled at. They took genuine pride in their abilities and their roles.

So... how do you relate this to an 11yo tuning out in school, so he can turn things around well before the onset of adulthood has limited his options? Here's how I'd do it:

1) Fight for proper placement in a challenging educational environment.
2) Set clear guidelines on what are acceptable minimum limits of effort, tailored to the individual strengths and weaknesses of that child. A child will be burned out if they're expected to do their very best on every task, no exceptions. Let them have some room to breathe.
3) Give them some guidance on how something that may seem meaningless to them now can build to something meaningful later. This is critical to getting "buy in."
4) Create positive rewards in which the child can gain access to more of what they love if they invest more in doing the things they don't.
5) Create negative rewards in which the child loses some access to the things they love if they fail to maintain minimum standards.

I am not sure what schools you are looking at for high school and their entrance requirements but it certainly isn't too late to turn things around. You have a few weeks across the summer holidays to talk with your son and figure some stuff out. Maybe make some time for chat dates over his favourite food or ice cream and be gentle. If he was making moves to find a solution to what he viewed as a problem and moved away from his friends, then he is looking for a way forward. Take that as your approach. Maybe start with, how do you feel school went this year? Take a collaborative approach. Look at his school work with him and see if there is a pattern to any problems. Is he missing any steps or knowledge. Tutoring will help. Take along copies of his NAPLAN results, the detailed page with every question on it. Tutors can see the patterns in any areas he might need help or extension as you mentioned he did well on the national testing.
Authoritative isn't authoritarian. Authoritarian implies strict rules, punishment for failure but with little respect for the child's opinions. Authoritative parenting also sets clear expectations and guidelines, but you have open discussion with your child. It is about being responsive, involved and supportive. Kids like to know what the boundaries and expectations are and how to meet them. If they don't meet them you need ways to help them meet them. There need to be consequences but necessarily just punishment. The consequences need to support the desired behaviour.
When DD didn't achieve results she, or I, expected in a class test, we talked about why that happened and a positive way forward. We discussed the need to replace screen time with bursts of study. We figured out that she studied better in certain ways that matched her visual style and worked on those. My job was to remind her to turn off the TV and why, so she could meet goals she had set. I made sure she ate and drank before studying and provided any materials she needed.
Talk with and work with your son. Let him know you are in this together. Pinpoint what he needs and help him set good goals and meet them. Don't expect perfection, it doesn't exist. Be realistic about the battles you pick, stick to what is most important to both of you. Make it a shared journey.

I think that Dude is onto something here-- a lack of INTRINSIC motivation to do what others wish that we would do.

KWIM?

I think that the reason why in MoN's case, making the decision was the appropriate one is that it was not a top-down, authoritarian move-- it was "I've heard you, but here is why I think that my plan is better than yours right now..."

I wasn't intrinsically motivated to do much that the adults in my life wanted me doing at 12-18yo.

I only BECAME motivated to achieve at levels more commensurate with my ability once I was in college and: a) the work got harder-- honestly, I started in a major that wasn't going to work out that way for me... BOY am I glad that I switched after taking a supporting course in another subject, b) it got cool to be a smart chick, and c) something just "clicked" in my head-- I wanted it. I hadn't before-- or I thought I wasn't worth it, or something. It was all tied up in my perfectionism, too-- so if I hadn't tried, then I couldn't chalk it up as a genuine "failure" in my head... lack of "failure" was my prime directive.

NOt sure if it's yet a success story, but things are better. My son had a lot of difficulty around the time he turned 12. He was in 6th grade. It's complicated but the short story is 6th grade did not go well, he grades were in the toilet, and antagonized his peers, and teachers. Honestly I didn't really care about his 6th grades by the time that year was over. He was already in a honors programs, and there wasn't an issue moving on to the next grade.

DS is now 14 (almost 15) and a freshmann (9th) in H.S. He did get some outside help with a psychologist. He is doing a LOT better, but things aren't perfect. He has really enjoyed marching band, and is sad it's almost over for the season. He is in all honors classes. He still isn't getting the grades I'd hoped, and still "under-performs" but not as drastically. Big issues we deal with is it's still a challenge to get him to not procrastinate. And one of his biggest problems is he gets stuck and doesn't complete something when he doesn't have what he thinks is the "perfect" answer.

Preteens are going through a lot of emotional upheavals. My feeling is some of what helped in his situation simply maturity and moving out of elementary school. One of the things I did was make sure he was part of the solution and I listened to him about what he wanted. The other was to insist that despite his bad performance in 6th grade, he NEEDED to stay in the GT program the following year. (And legally in my situation they had to until 8th grade) I was lucky and had a school counselor willing to work with me who had a fairly good understanding of the situation.

I'm not sure whether we are successful but we are hopefully on the right track. DS13 had a miserable time in grades 6 and 7. It was a time when all the bad feelings that he accumulated toward schools over the years surfaced and became too much to bear. I thank three factors that saved DS from going down the underachievement route too far. 1. He participates in lots of extracurricular activities including academic activities and a ton of music. He is always a high achiever in these activities, which helps him put things in perspective whenever he has self doubt. 2. He did the middle school talent search in 7th grade. We weren't interested before that time but realized that he needed reassurance. He got a fantastic result from the talent search, which helped him regain confidence in himself. 3. We pulled him out of the public middle school, which has a great reputation but really was a bad fit with DS. We are now in a private, gifted school, which turns out to be not nearly as good as we were hoping for. But the school gave DS a lot of space so at least he doesn't feel stifled anymore.