Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links
DITD Logo

Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    1 registered (1 invisible), 0 Guests and 199 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    liny, Joo, Breef, Camss70, Ms Jules
    10821 Registered Users
    September
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2 3 4 5
    6 7 8 9 10 11 12
    13 14 15 16 17 18 19
    20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    27 28 29 30
    Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
    Topic Options
    #175618 - 11/22/13 11:48 AM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: KADmom]
    kcab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/02/07
    Posts: 1603
    Loc: Sparta, apparently
    Originally Posted By: KADmom
    Ds12 has not had a teacher in his Enrichment class (AIG) since the year started and he hasn't had a science teacher for four weeks because the one he had quit. There have been a variety of inadequate subs since then but things hit bottom for me when he came home and told me there was no one in the classroom two days ago, no sub, no teacher, no administrator, until 5 minutes before the class ended.
    ...

    I'm hearing stories of the district office bullying and berating teachers, putting unnecessary pressure on them. One woman was put on medical leave because her hair was falling out. Teachers are quitting faster than the district can hire them.
    To me, these speak to poor management at the district level. Perhaps poor administration at the school too, but largely a district level issue. I would be making noise about this and I would keep the focus on this specific, local, issue. I do think creating a parent group could be helpful, this level of mismanagement has probably been annoying to many parents in the district.

    One plus of moving around a bunch is that I've seen a variety of ways for districts and schools to be run, and I've been in one that was functioning the way you describe. One thing that helped in that district was a superintendent change - and importantly the board set up the search process so that there were several ways for public opinion (other community as well as parents) to be heard regarding what to look for in the new super. The new super that was hired does have the style and values that the community requested and has done a good job since. There were several principal changes that happened the same year; I'm sure those helped as well.

    So I think I'd be looking for ways to start building a community that was willing to speak up.
    _________________________
    kcab

    Top
    #175622 - 11/22/13 12:10 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: DAD22]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3289
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    I'm not a math teacher, and my children aren't school age yet, so I have no real experience with CC.

    ..and it leads me to believe that CC is largely the answer to made-up problems.



    DAD22, I'm going to put it to you that if your kids aren't in school yet, you probably aren't aware of the full horror of US math "education." It's a disaster from start to finish. To summarize, there are two basic paths to teaching math in this country:

    1. Memorize and Regurgitate. See most big-publisher textbooks (e.g. Sadlier-Oxford). These programs teach nothing about concepts in mathematics. They present algorithms to be memorized and provide worksheets with 35+ identical problems. 35+64= 48+89= Again and again and again. And more of the same tomorrow night!


    2. Reform math. See Everyday Mathematics or EnVision math (there are many options on this menu, however). Reform systems use gimmicks, faddish approaches, and calculators in a largely botched attempt to teach concepts. The people who made them were right about students not learning concepts, but their solution is as bad as the problem it purports to solve. In these systems, standard algorithms are b-a-d and we need to teach several different approaches to [insert operation], no matter how kooky or mathematically incorrect. Look up partial products as one egregious example. Partial quotients is another. Guess-and-check assumes that you have all day to solve a single division problem.

    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    They want me to believe that understanding similar triangles is a prerequisite for understanding the slope of a line? I don't buy that. I don't believe that everyone comes to an understanding of the slope of a line in the same way.


    A huge problem in math education in this country is that there are way, way, WAY too many approaches to teaching an idea. Most of them are created (and taught) by people who don't understand mathematics. You, as an intelligent engineer, may be able to see different correct ways to teach the slope of a line, but what you probably don't understand (YET) is that the vast majority of current curricula botch it completely.

    Originally Posted By: Wu document
    I should mention in passing that CCMS makes the e ffort to teach similarity in grade 8 not just for making sense of the concept of
    slope. It also serves the larger purpose of laying the groundwork
    for high school geometry.

    This is part of CCMS's overall e ort to maintain grade-to-grade continuity.


    IMO, his points about the slope of a line show the beauty of mathematics. Look kids! This stuff is part of algebra! And it's part of geometry! It all fits together.

    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    Let's consider a line with a slope of 0, or infinite slope. Where are their triangles now?


    There is no slope in the former case. And you can't calculate it in the second one. You could still use right triangles, though, if you really wanted to.


    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    What goes on in their heads is their own business, and their ability to relate that to others is an issue wholly distinct from mathematical mastery.


    On the contrary. Being able to explain something is critical, if for no other reason than because it teaches you how to explain something in a logical way. This skill is critical in the workplace and elsewhere. But explaining it also proves that you understand it. Richard Feynman used to say that if physicists couldn't explain an idea to freshmen physics students, they didn't really understand it to begin with. This was taken as a sign to keep trying to figure it out.

    Again, if your kids aren't in school yet, you probably haven't plumbed the depths of how bad our math education system truly is. It's kind of hard to believe it when you haven't witnessed it. I have a 13-year-old, and I'm still discovering new layers of horror below the ones I've already found. Just when you think they've hit rock bottom, someone comes along with something insane and you discover a whole new system of caverns of badness.

    If your kids are lucky, the CC may save them. But it's more likely that they'll come home with 35 examples of the same problem to do, or will be using boxes or lattices or calendar-like-constructions to do basic arithmetic. And with each passing year, you will try many different reasonable approaches at advocacy, and all or nearly all of them will fail. You will tear more of your hair out until, like KADmom (and me, and HowlerKarma, and most others here), you will begin to feel that gut-wrenching desperation-resignation that results when you finally realize that how bad the schools truly are, public or private, with very few exceptions.


    No, I am not making this up. frown


    Edited by Val (11/22/13 12:23 PM)
    Edit Reason: More detail added

    Top
    #175627 - 11/22/13 12:36 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: DAD22]
    22B Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/10/13
    Posts: 1228
    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    They want me to believe that understanding similar triangles is a prerequisite for understanding the slope of a line? I don't buy that. ... Let's consider a line with a slope of 0, or infinite slope. Where are their triangles now?


    In that case they'd be degenerate triangles. Aha! Proof that Common Core will undermine the moral fabric of this country!

    Top
    #175629 - 11/22/13 01:03 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: puffin]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: puffin
    Common standards are good I feel. The problem is that when they are measured by testing and the results are reported etc kids get taught only what is in the test. That has obvious problems.

    Also the whole point of having teachers is they can adjust and re-explain in a way that works for each kid. This doesn't work with a script (i thought you had teachers'unions?) or if the teacher is rigid and unsympathetic.

    Like i said on another thread if you are going to give the teachers a script and not let them deviate from it you don't need trained teachers. It is hugely insulting to them to suggest they use such a script and i am not surprised if the ones that can afford it are leaving.




    No, you DON'T need trained teachers. Just people to sit as "monitors" and make sure that the students are safe while they are plugged into electronic "delivery systems" which are perfect at content delivery.

    This is the entire idea.

    It's literally the sole conclusion that I can come to regarding my attempts to get a look inside the "machine" at the Pearson division that we're within...

    Let those rabble-rousers leave. They cause trouble, and slow down production.

    sick

    No, I'm really-- REALLY-- not a conspiracy theorist, but I'm deeply disturbed by Pearson's move away from print textbooks. They are taking over instructional delivery-- period. That IS their long-range plan.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #175630 - 11/22/13 01:05 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: KADmom]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: Val

    Again, if your kids aren't in school yet, you probably haven't plumbed the depths of how bad our math education system truly is. It's kind of hard to believe it when you haven't witnessed it. I have a 13-year-old, and I'm still discovering new layers of horror below the ones I've already found. Just when you think they've hit rock bottom, someone comes along with something insane and you discover a whole new system of caverns of badness.


    YES.

    frown


    I know that plenty of members here thought it was crazy that my DD (a high school senior and prospective math major) was NOT going to take AP Calculus prior to leaving high school.

    However-- many of those same people have not yet seen the how-low-can-you-go Limbo game that has become math instruction in K-12.

    No teacher, because that would "interfere" with Pearson's
    "optimized" delivery of "content."

    Teaching not for understanding, but to the AP test.

    Yeah, no thanks. Most of my friends still in STEM in higher ed support our decision and applaud it, in fact-- because they see too many kids who "aced" calculus in high school AP classes, but who don't really understand the math.

    I want my daughter to learn calculus from someone with a firm grip on advanced mathematics, and from a person who isn't relying on a SCRIPT to deliver instruction. She'll wait and take it as a college freshman. You only learn calculus the first time once. Why not do it RIGHT rather than doing it "right now?"



    Edited by HowlerKarma (11/22/13 01:10 PM)
    Edit Reason: to add info about high school calculus
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    #175632 - 11/22/13 01:13 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3289
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    ..but I'm deeply disturbed by Pearson's move away from print textbooks. They are taking over instructional delivery-- period. That IS their long-range plan.


    My opinion? E-books are profitable, pure and simple.

    You license them instead of buying them, so when the license expires, they POOF! out of existence. And you can't buy a used e-book. Oh, no. That would not do. And you get to pay whatever price they decide to set, every time.

    Top
    #175633 - 11/22/13 01:27 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: KADmom]
    Zen Scanner Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/13/12
    Posts: 1478
    Loc: NC
    There are much fairer e-delivery content options out.


    Top
    #175634 - 11/22/13 01:39 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: KADmom]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3289
    Loc: California
    I was referring specifically to companies like Pearson. I suspect HK was, too.

    Top
    #175635 - 11/22/13 01:49 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: Val]
    puffin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/11/12
    Posts: 2035
    Can I ask a slightly off topic question. Pearson do some materials for the NZ curriculum (my kid's teachers don't use textbooks at this point (y2/g1) but I want to know what it is they are supposed to be learning. The etexts are a lot cheaper for just a look but I was wondering would they work on windows XP or on a windows phone? That is all I have right now.

    Top
    #175641 - 11/22/13 02:16 PM Re: Losing Ground for Gifted Advocacy. [Re: Zen Scanner]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: Zen Scanner
    There are much fairer e-delivery content options out.



    There are.

    But those don't come with marketing teams that visit large school districts, and they don't come bundled on iPad (TM) devices, either.

    I seriously object to the idea that education is reducible in the ways implicit in the messages of those who are now using CCSS to market themselves.

    Makes me ask where we're going... and why we're in this handbasket.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

    Top
    Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    Rallying to Protect Admissions Standards in VA
    by Wren
    Today at 04:01 AM
    Thoughts on work of Drs E Frattura & C Capper?
    by indigo
    09/22/20 08:52 AM
    books for adults
    by indigo
    09/22/20 08:43 AM
    The (Gifted) Kids Are All Right
    by MumOfThree
    09/21/20 08:04 PM
    How to calculate GAI ?
    by indigo
    09/21/20 12:39 PM
    Davidson Institute Twitter