Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy What am I missing here?

I will probably delete this in a little bit so please don't quote me.

edited--basically the entrance criteria on the school district website for g/t does not seem to match up at all with what the supposed g/t coordinator is telling me in emails (she says DD is not in top qualifying level when she is according to their website), resulting in massive confusion/irritation

Ouch. I'm so sorry.

Keep pushing Blackcat! With those kind of scores there is no doubt your child NEEDS some gifted services... It's ridiculous that they are trying to keep her out!

Does it even make sense what she is saying? It seems to totally contradict their website!
She is in the cluster group in her regular school which they probably think is adequate since she's not a "high achiever". But the cluster group does basically nothing other than random math "enrichment" independently and she is doing grade-level curriculum except for spelling. I don't understand how she is expected to get achievement scores up to 98-99 if they do not teach above grade level. She is 3-4 years ahead for reading comprehension (even though her score is only 94th percentile, that's what the test report says for reading level) and that's still not high-achieving enough for them.

blackcat, I feel your frustration. FWIW, we've had similar experiences in advocating for our kids - both for gifted services and for help with special needs. I'd go ahead and fume for a few hours, and then just get back to business - do your research, think through what you want to say when you have your conference call, do some more research to be sure you can back up what your points are, and then remember to stay calm when you talk to the folks next week. After the conference call, write down what was said/decided upon in a brief and non-emotional email and send it around to whoever was in on the call. If you have follow-up questions, include them. It probably wouldn't hurt to just confirm what you discussed today re setting up a meeting next week via a brief email to the person you talked to.

Here are a few other things to consider:


I do not have official statistics in front of me and I am not a person who believes you can describe every situation perfectly through testing ;), but just guessing here - I think it's possible that you might find being 3-4 years ahead in reading is at the 94th percentile. It's just been my experience in the classrooms my kids have been in that reading ability varies over a really wide spectrum. That's not downplaying your dd's ability or saying she shouldn't be in a HG magnet program - it's just something I wouldn't necessarily hold out on it's own as saying this one portion of this one test isn't representative of your dd.


Does it make sense in terms of saying a child with FSIQ 150 shouldn't be considered able enough to be accepted into the program, no. Does it make sense in terms of what she is saying about thier policy etc - that part I could follow. I'm not 100% surprised to hear there is a difference in what's stated on a website and what the staff is using for guidelines - websites can become outdated, or policies can change. Don't assume the staff is contradicting themselves or setting policy-on-the-fly, instead, print a copy of what the website states so you have it. In your conference call, when testing requirements and cut-offs are discussed, if something is said that is different than what's stated on the website or if the discussion becomes unclear, ask them to clarify - is the website correct? Restate it for them. If they say they've changed cut-offs for whatever reason, ask for the reason.

And most importantly, simply keep reminding them politely but firmly about your dd's WISC results. Point out the individual component scores if you need to (VCI, PRI) - and relate those to the ability to achieve in math/sciences and language arts. I'm guessing here that your dd's VCI and PRI are both 98th percentile - but even if they aren't your dd is *clearly* a very high IQ kid... just remember to yourself as you are advocating - there are quite likely a lot of kids already in the program who would not score as highly on the WISC. That's not something to say out loud or to argue as a reason your dd should be *in*, but it's something you need to remind yourself of as you advocate - speak with confidence. Your dd *has* the ability and she will most likely do very well in the program.

And a question from me - what achievement test are they looking at? WJ-III or something else? ITBS? When was it given? One tactic I've seen parents advocate for here and our school accommodate when a child has qualifying scores in either ability or achievement but is not quite up to the cut-off in the other area is that the school will retest with a different test, so you could ask for a different test if you wanted to. OTOH, I'd probably first try to simply ask her to be put in based on her ability scores.

Also curious - not sure I see it above - how far off from the cutoff is her 94th percentile in reading? Not in percentile (98th vs 94th) but in actual score? Is it possible (depends on the test) that missing only 1 or 2 questions could have put her that much lower in percentile? If so, you could that it's within expected error range (please note - that's not statistical, mathematically measured error - just "conversational this could have happened" error range!).

Let us know how your conference call goes -

polarbear

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I think I'd write down a list of the tests she's taken at school, dates, and whether or not meds were on trial or an issue etc on the date of the test and send a copy of that to the school prior to your conference call. I'd also call your ped (or whichever dr oversees your dd's meds) and ask them to write a note stating the time period in which dd was trialing different meds and doses.

Does your dd have a 504 plan with accommodations for her ADHD?


No, they really don't think that. They most likely understand all the concerns you've voiced here but they may be putting up walls anyway. The thing that you can do by documenting (even documenting via the list of what happened in the past) is to put it on record - there is a question about the reliability of the testing. They will be more likely to accept alternate testing or to give a bit on one cut-off criteria etc if you make sure they have your concerns re ADHD impacting the test scores in writing.


I would consider telling them this too - that she may not be following directions and since she has ADHD you could consider asking for an accommodation such as test questions read to your dd.


I haven't ever heard of the test you mentioned - I'm wondering if it is a state test? Our state's standardized testing is like that. Has your dd had any outside testing such as the WJ-III? If the achievement scores are a huge obstacle and you want your dd in this program, one thing you could consider is having her take an individually administered WJ-III Achievement test privately - if she takes it one-on-one and has the questions read to her she's probably much more likely to make accidental errors. An outside private professional could also give you observational info re was she paying attention or distracted during testing. I don't know that the school would accept the testing, but it would give you additional data points to support your concerns that the current set of tests do not accurately reflect your dd's ability.



It's totally understandable that if you find this is indicative of the program it's not going to be a good fit and I wouldn't want to send my child there - but otoh, I would go ahead and try my best to get her accepted so that you have an opportunity to sit in on a class if you'd like to, or so that you might have an opportunity to meet some other parents in the program to get a feel of whether or not these frustrations are purely related to getting admitted or they are representative of a classroom that isn't what you'd hope a gifted program would be.


I wouldn't necessarily take this as a sign that she's ignoring you or trying to put you off - it might be as simple as, she's a busy person who prefers email.

One last thing I thought about that has happened to us in advocating for our 2e ds - it's possible there's an invisible wall you're up against that is related to the second e. We've found in advocating for our ds that the gifted staff in our school district *sometimes* have a belief that 2e kids aren't going to be successful in a self-contained classroom with highly rigorous academic expectations. This is actually the polar opposite (ack! polar! lol.... I digress) of what we've found in our ds' schooling - he is better able to cope with his second e when he's appropriately challenged and is working with intellectual-ability-level peers in a classroom where the teacher has high expectations. But the school district just doesn't know that - they think the opposite will happen - the workload will be too much, he can't keep up etc. So another I would do, in your shoes, before the phone conference, is to think through all the ways the school staff might imagine that your dd's ADHD would be a potential impediment to high achieving in a gifted classroom, and think through all the reasons you know it *won't* be an issue. Think of specific examples from her past school experiences if you can.

polarbear

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Is that the CogAT 6 or 7? I think the CogAT 6 goes up to 150 and the CogAT 7 goes up to 160, so the percentiles may differ. So the 139 on the CogAT6 is actually ABOVE the 99% - I think that 99% on the CogAT6 starts at 136 - so that would be a VERY HIGH Composite CogAT score! Will they consider a subtest score of 139 or above (in terms of you submitting an alternative that high) or must it be a composite? I am not sure about the CogAT 7, as our school did not use that version.

Still, if your DD has an FSIQ above 99%, and if the school takes the WISC, she could possibly qualify on this alone. Is the school hesitant to consider the GAI? If so, do they perhaps need some education about why this is perhaps a better assessment of your DD? Her WISC Achievement scores might also qualify her (will they take these)?

I can understand your frustration of dealing with this, especially since your DD's scores are so high. Just remember, they may need to be educated about the alternative measures (WISC, etc.). I think that when a school uses set tests and scores they tend to get rather "locked on" to those tests and scores. THEY may need to take a step back and be reminded to look at their own policies, plus the total picture of available information on your DD. Hang in there!

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I'm confused, too, so maybe THEY haven't figured out what WISC scores they need? Are they trying to qualify her under option A or option B? What WISC score are they claiming matches each option?

Have they refused to take the GAI? It sounds like they aren't sure - LOL! They do not seem to be very clear in what alternative scores they will accept. It IS good that they will accept alternative scores - not all programs will. I would want them to clarify (and I think your DD may have an argument that she qualifies under either).

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Also, does the school calculate and use a composite V+Q, instead of a total composite (V+Q+N) for the CogAT? Could this be what she is talking about?

Would they consider alternatives for the WISC verbal subtest as "achievement scores"? 99th percentile for verbal WISC and the high math score from her original testing...those are high scores, too...

Ok, I think I understand (saw your last post). So the 98% math achievement probably wouldn't be enough because that group usually doesn't get in? Does the program have a limited # of seats, so even if they meet the criteria at this level, they could be excluded?

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I am guessing only about 25-30 kids in each grade are accepted from the entire district. So it is possible that even some kids in Level 1 won't be "invited".
If they actually did the cluster grouping appropriately none of this would matter--I would just keep her in her current school in the cluster group. But the cluster group does almost nothing and there is virtually no g/t program other than this magnet.

If she has a WISC FSIQ of 99%, that is well above the 132 CogAT. The CogAT percentiles drop quickly when you go below 135. So her math plus WISC could qualify her.

I would also make the case, though, that her GAI is OVER a 139 CogAT subtest. There is a chart online (I'm on my phone) that should provide %s above 99%. I can find this later, unless someone beats me to it.

Either way, you have a strong case for getting your DD in, IMO.

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Honestly it sounds like they don't use and maybe haven't even looked at the flowchart. As far as they are concerned the criteria is an AND not an OR and they are more likely just to keep apologising for confusing you and insisting the flowchart just has a minor typing error than admit they are wrong. Probably the flow chart will "have been done by a person who no longer works for us and misunderstood the criteria" and "nobody else has had any problem with using the flow chart but since you do we will delete it".

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It sounds perfectly reasonable if they were doing it. Good luck.

The CogAT chart I found suggests that a 132-135 SAS is typically 98%. Typically, then, 132 is a "low 98%." So your DD's FSIQ is above this, by percentile. Apparently, your school needs to read it's own flowchart.

I would want to ask the school: 1) will you consider the GAI in lieu of the CogAT subtest score? 2) What WISC FSIQ or GAI do you require as a 139 CogAT equivalent? 3) What WISC FSIQ or GAI do you require as a 132 CogAT equivalent?

Best wishes, blackcat, and please let us know how it goes.

p.s. I sent you a PM!

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