Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 2 1 2
    #175380 11/20/13 09:18 AM
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    T
    TNC Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    DD4 is in a Montessori 3-5 class and I am in the process of asking for subject acceleration in reading/language arts. DD is currently reading at a mid second grade level and it is clear DD's classroom doesn't have appropriate language arts works available. The school does have a 6-8 class so the works are available in the grades above. I met with the DD's teacher and the head of the school (also the teacher for 6-8) and was told once DD finishes all the works in the 3-5 class she can move up to reading comprehension. The school seems very hesitant to share exactly how many works are left before the reading comprehension works will be introduced. I have sent multiple follow up e-mails to the teacher, each one with more probing questions trying to discern exactly what is left and while some info has been provided, I still do not have an answer. DD works best when there is a plan in place and something to work towards so being able to say "you have x number of phonograms left to master before you can get more reading works" would certainly let her know what to expect especially since those works come from another classroom.

    After my initial meeting I felt like the school was going to work with me to "follow the child" and let DD work at her own pace, but it doesn't seem that they are willing to communicate exactly what their expectations are. It seems they may have just agreed to accelerate DD to try to pacify me in hopes I would just go away. I am at the point where I want to ask for another meeting and insist on a written plan detailing what work is required for mastery before DD will be given upper level work commensurate with her learning level. I would like to ask for a plan for reading/LA and math as well (though I don't think DD will exhaust her classroom's curriculum for at least another few months or so).

    I would very much like DD to stay in Montessori and my current goal is to keep DD in her class with subject level acceleration. This is my first time advocating and any thoughts on how to negotiate a not so forthcoming Montessori school would be very much appreciated!

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    I would write an e-mail using direct Montessori quotes to show the need for following the child etc.

    I would, in the same missive, ask for exacts, and tell them it's to give your daughter hope that they, the school, and the adults in her life are working with her.

    I really hope that you come right and that she can stay there - especially if she is happy there.


    Mom to 3 gorgeous boys: Aiden (8), Nathan (7) and Dylan (4)
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    T
    TNC Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    Madoosa, I have been very clear with the school that, while DD often says she doesn't want to go to school, it is a good environment for her and I believe in the benefit of the Montessori educational system. I have also said I truly do want her to stay in her class and in the school. They know my other option is homeschool, which is not what I necessarily want to do. My questions are also very specific, but get answered in a very round about way. I am still learning how to ask better Montessori specific questions smile

    I love the idea of giving her hope! I will use that in my next e-mail to the school. Thank you!

    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 756
    K
    KJP Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    K
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 756
    Have you had a chance to observe her in class?

    DS6 attends a Montessori school. It sounds like the age breakdowns are a little different but for your daughter's age the teachers at our school are not going to push academics at all. So if a student doesn't actually seek out reading/LA works on their own, the teachers are not going to try to get them to work on that material.

    So at our school, 4 year olds have free choice. They can do any works they want. That means if they want to spend their time grinding coffee beans with a hand crank grinder, painting, stringing beads, and arranging flowers, the teachers are going to let them. The teachers will introduce the LA materials but for that age the kids can choose not to do them. So in theory they could have a four year old reading at a high school level who chooses to paint flowers all day and dig in the garden and since that kid isn't choosing the LA works, they would say he is not ready to work on the LA works.

    Just wanted to share our experience.

    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 353
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Feb 2012
    Posts: 353
    DD10 has been in a Montessori school since Toddler House (2-3 years old) and we have had some awesome teachers and some terrible ones (no exaggeration). One thing that has been pretty constant, though, is that it seems like there is less communication from the teachers about exactly what the students are doing than in regular schools, although there are periodic 'bring your parents to school' days when we get to see more detail. This can be really confounding when you are trying to sort out exactly what your kid is doing and whether the teachers are really trying to make sure your kid is challenged while also learning topics thoroughly. Also even the great teachers we have had were not constantly introducing new things--DD might get a new lesson every week or so, depending on what else was going on in the classroom. So it was not the kind of acceleration that one might expect based on other school environments. As long as DD was happy, we were happy.

    You mention that your DD often says she doesn't want to go to school--has she explained why? Is it because of the material not being challenging enough, or something else? Do you think she is asking for more material at school and is being disregarded?

    My understanding of the Montessori philosophy (although schools differ widely in implementation IME) is that they will move the child ahead when the child is 'ready,' which may include I think emotional readiness. The school recruitment pitch often includes saying that kids will get new material when they are ready for it, which I think many parents (us included) take to mean something a little different from what the school means and from what the teachers actually do. Our DD was not allowed to go to the Upper Elementary classroom for more advanced math lessons in 3rd grade, we were told, because her behavior would have been disruptive, but neither did her own teachers that year make an effort to give her more challenging material. In contrast, in 1st and 2d grade, her teachers (different ones) always told us how much they enjoyed teaching her and often gave her lessons with the older kids in her class and even some by herself, but it wasn't even every week--although DD loved it. Over time, we came to consider these teachers to be at opposite ends of the teacher spectrum (based mostly on other stuff), but at first it was difficult to tell exactly what is going on, especially when it was a new school or a new classroom. And our DD has never been a very reliable reporter of what goes on in the classroom so that wasn't much help.

    What does the teacher say about your DD? It seems possible from what you said that she thinks you are being a 'pushy parent' who is trying to force new material on your DD that your DD isn't ready for, so I second Madoosa's suggestion and talking about anything your DD says or does at home that might support her interest in more challenging material and making sure the teachers understand it is coming from your DD and not just you. Good luck!

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    One of my major concerns with Modern Montessori Education (and the reason we are homeschooling instead of...) is that they have a firm focus on linear learning. higher LOG kids do not learn in this fashion - they jump around for the most part and need the freedom to do so within their learning environment.

    I have always believed in the Montessori methodology as a whole; I just couldn't understand the rigid need to keep kids operating on an adult-imposed learning path in a system that is based on following the child. frown

    And as much as I hate to be the party pooper - it doesn't really matter if you think the school/system is the best thing since Solar Power - what really matters is how happy your daughter is in her learning environment; many of us here have struggled through with kids being unhappy at school and I can say from personal experience that it is just simply not worth it.

    I can honestly say that the delight I experience now on a daily basis is simply because my child is happy to be alive, eager to wake up every day and learn and full of joy. As a kid should be.

    So yes, I was reluctant to walk away from Montessori. I still believe in it's pedagogical value. It's just not for my oldest two children.

    I hope you can find resolution and peace with wherever your decisions take you!


    Mom to 3 gorgeous boys: Aiden (8), Nathan (7) and Dylan (4)
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    T
    TNC Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    KJP, I am observing tomorrow morning so we will see how that goes. Our Montessori school does have an academic focus, but you are correct in that there is no issue if the child chooses to do flower arranging or window washing all day. DD could use some fine motor development and focus practice in a loud classroom so I really don't have an issue with this part of the philosophy.

    Dbat, DD often says she doesn't want to do the works and that is why she doesn't want to go to school. Some of her feelings I believe stem from perfectionism and that her writing is lagging behind what she believes she should be capable of. She has however expressed a desire to go to the older kids classroom to explore their works as well as some harder reading works. When I let the teacher know Thalia's desires, she follows up with the same "type" of questions and often gets a different answer. The most common response is the works are "tricky." I asked DD today what she meant when she said the works are tricky. It was enlightening to hear that she is clear what the word truly means, but is not using it appropriately. Tricky to her is not synonymous with hard or difficult. Tricky is something that takes a little (not a lot or hard) work. I plan on sharing this with her teacher tomorrow.

    I don't believe DD is asking for harder work, it is just not like her. While I appreciate the teacher following up with questions when I mention my conversations with DD, it sometimes makes me feel like they don't believe me when I relate my conversations. The different answers from DD I believe has contributed to the perception that I am pushy. I do not feel I am a pushy parent, and I certainly have never done some of the things they have insinuated - flash cards,making her practice skills at home, never letting her be a kid, teaching her to read etc. I just happen to have a kid that I am running as fast as I can to keep up with. I didn't know how else to resolve the issue so I had DD assessed so I could present "hard evidence" - IQ test etc.

    You are spot on in your recruitment pitch. In the initial interview I was pretty clear about where DD was academically - though I did not totally realize how different DD is from others. They assured me they "followed the child" and her needs would be no problem. Unfortunately my experience has been that the school does not seek out a child's challenge level, therefore how do they "follow the child?." For example when we enrolled DD they had her practicing the alphabet despite me being very clear she had learned it 2 years prior. I was quite upset they never checked to see where she what her learning needs were and just assumed she should start from the beginning. This took two months to resolve and the teacher even said to me, I tried x with her reading and she blew me a way. Wow, no kidding, I could have told you that. Oh wait, I did!!

    DD is not totally reliable on what goes on in the classroom either. In fact that is a major concern of mine. When DD learns something new or interesting she cannot stop talking about it. On a rare occasion I hear about a work from school. Like today I heard they worked on a lot of new language works and she said they were easy as I supposed she would. The teacher and the head of school have said they feel DD is "appropriately challenged" in her current state. You can see why I may question that statement based on my experience so far. In thinking about it, at no time have they said or insinuated DD is not capable of or ready for more advanced works, it always comes back to their system. I have shown the school her achievement test results and IQ results and explained briefly what they mean. Their ignorance of the needs of EG/PG children became clearly evident when they said they didn't believe it was ever good for a child to be grade skipped. Also, DD can be quite quiet, timid and a pleaser. Maybe not what they picture as a gifted child. They even said they have had many children like her in the past. Hmmm...

    Madoosa, Thank you again for your words of wisdom! Why why why can't I have IRL friends like you? You put into words what I instinctively know but have probably been subconsciously choosing not to acknowledge. I keep hoping we can make Montessori work because I also believe in the methodology as a whole. DD isn't overly upset about school and goes with out protest once I mention her friends. But I just have this feeling in the pit of my stomach that DD is on the verge of realizing how differently she learns from her friends. She is already getting frustrated giving lessons to friends on works because in the words of the teacher "the other children are not doing it exactly as she thinks it should be done." I feel like I need a plan for the next semester for DD and since it has taken me this long to get the answered to just some of my questions it may be time to look more seriously at Plan B.

    Whew! Who knew I had so much to say smile I guess that happens when there is no one else (besides DH)to talk to about these sorts of things who even remotely gets what I am talking about. Thank you for listening!

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 710
    Ah TNC - that's exactly why we have this space. Because here our concerns are valid, our kids are awesome and we are heard! *HUGS*

    Most schools will say a child is appropriately challenged if they don't see what they "expect" to see from a bored gifted child (ie work done accurately, quickly, and then wondering around the class with nothing to do, an angelic expression on the bemused face and still polite, engaging and asking for more work constantly.)

    It's not the reality and unfortunately, especially for EG/PG girls who are usually people pleasers, you need to read the situation and them from early to ensure they don't go underground and just learn to live with it.

    One thing you might want to consider is to get some of the higher level montessori equipment for her at home, and then encourage her to speak about it at school, or for yourself to read some of the original Maria Montessori books (many are free on Kindle app) and then enthusiastically share some of your favourite pieces with the directress.

    Of course, this is all assuming you think it's worth it in the long run. Otherwise maybe plan B is worth considering too. There is no reason why you cannot homeschool Montessori too - the materials are widely available, there are loads of Montessori homeschooling pages on FB and alternative sites for making your own materials inexpensively too. There are books available et voila!

    It's not an easy decision and it's one you and your family will need to make together at some stage based on what your long term plan/outcome goals are for your family


    Mom to 3 gorgeous boys: Aiden (8), Nathan (7) and Dylan (4)
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    T
    TNC Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    T
    Joined: Oct 2013
    Posts: 66
    I am absolutely FUMING! I got an email from the school today saying DD needs to do this new reading challenge (reading the last book from a set of books) before they will move her onto the work we had previously agreed upon. I have never heard of this reading challenge before. It had never been discussed in all the e-mails (32 in all) and conversations we have had over the past 6 weeks. And low and behold she needed "help" and so they will go backwards to find out where she "should" be.

    I am not upset that they are "trying" but I feel like it is just one road block after another to get DD appropriate reading. I asked for specifics and maybe I will get them, maybe I won't. It is entirely possible these books are a challenge, but I feel this should have been communicated to me previously as part of the schools plan to find out where they believe DD "should be." I think I would be more comfortable that they are operating in good faith if they had been more forthcoming in their "process" to assess DD, or had shown any pro-activity to "follow the child," instead of just winging it! I so want to trust that they have my daughters best interest at heart, but I think I am currently incapable of seeing the forest through the trees!

    At this point I have to ask more questions, but at what point am I just beating my head against a wall? Can this school relationship even be salvaged? Should I even try? It is PT conferences next week and they don't feel we have a need for a conference because we have been communicating so "extensively." Any advice from those who have been down this long long long road would be greatly appreciated.

    Here are my options:
    1. Try to work it out with DD's current school.
    2. Try another small (and I mean small) private school in the area who have said all the right things about being able to accommodate DD. They seem a little more knowledgeable about GT kids, but the class is so small (10-15)and it is mixed age 3-7.
    3. Start to home school - but this seems like such a daunting task. I have a DS2 and I'd have to figure out what do with him while I homeschool. All the pre-school programs around here are over full and the only possible option is to send him to the same school DD is in now. Or try to hire someone to come to the house and take care of DS while I homeschool DD.

    Oh, and I just want to scream thinking this is what I have ahead of me for the next long while! Thank you for letting me vent!

    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 429
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 429
    ohhh this sounds sadly familiar. my sympathies, TNC.

    we had a really hard time finding out what was going on with DD's reading assessments last year. whenever there was a reading test, she never showed any improvement - which, for a relatively bright kid seemed a bit odd. and just like your situation, they wouldn't tell us anything except that she wasn't ready to move on. i knew DD HATED working on reading, but she wasn't even 5, so for a long time i didn't push the point. when i realized she could read newspaper headlines and random chapter titles and all kinds of neat stuff, i finally started asking the teachers some direct questions.

    trying to get helpful answers was impossible. what i eventually had to do was obtain a copy of the most recent test, and then DD and i sat down together to figure out how to game the system. it had the craziest scoring system: for example, they were taking OFF points for self-correction, so DD simply learned to slow down her overall oral cadence - just enough so that she'd have time to self-correct in her head before it came out of her mouth. it wound up sounding a little sing-songy/passive-aggressive, but i could live with that. smile

    once she figured out how to "work" the test, she blasted through 9 levels in one day, at which point they stopped working with her (the dreaded "out of grade level")... so we're homeschooling now - and fwiw she went from zero reading last March to now comfortably reading middle school material. if you're thinking about homeschooling - i have to say our experience so far (all 2.5 months of it!) has been amazing.

    the decision to homeschool came over me gradually - a piece here and a piece there until i realized it could be done. i work from home full time, and everyone thinks i'm nuts to do both simultaneously, but honestly it's so much less stressful. fighting (ha, i mean advocating!) with the school was a full time job and i felt like i was losing my mind.

    all the best, TNC!!


    Every Sunday it brooded and lay on the floor. Inconveniently close to the drawing-room door.
    Page 1 of 2 1 2

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5