Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Achievement tests as factor for gifted placement

My older son actually qualified for gifted under the state program for disadvantaged children...he is 2e and his achievement scores are just fine but I believe his RIAS score was a bit suppress by his anxiety/Asperger's...he will be getting a WISC but is on the waiting list at the university. He was just under the cut for gifted but because his dad is a school teacher and his pitiful salary makes us qualify for reduced lunch so he qualified for gifted services...he is the least disadvantaged kid I know. All of his teachers (out of his earshot or in email) will comment on his depth of understanding, his giftedness, the way he connects concepts, sometimes he is the only one chuckling at a teacher's joke because he is the only one who got it. He isn't just a high achiever he truly is gifted, he just wasn't tested correctly. But I am glad they qualified he under the disadvantaged program. I wouldn't make him get additional testing if we didn't need some other testing that the university is going to do and it is just part of the package.

eema, my eg ds that I mentioned above is 2e - when he is given the WJ-III Achievement his scores are all over the place (from very high to extremely low) due to his second e. That's because the tests are given *without* accommodations - and they are (here) more typically given (and I think actually designed) to show differences in specific abilities rather than broad knowledge across a specific subject. He is allowed to use accommodations for the group tests our school uses to track student achievement (note: I'm *not* talking about state testing lol!).... these tests are designed to test specific knowledge expected to be learned by the grade the test is written for, and are nationally normed tests. DS is able to take these tests *with accommodations* and he scores in the same general percentile range on them as he does on ability tests.

If a school district questions scores on tests such as the WJ-III Achievement tests given without accommodations specifically for the purpose of understanding learning strengths and challenges in a 2e child, you should be able to advocate by demonstrating how the student's "e" impacts the score. When our ds was in early elementary and we ran into this as a potential issue for gifted id, our neuropsych told us there are two versions of the WJ-III Achievement tests (a "form A" and a "form B") and that we could if we wanted to request that our ds be given the second form using accommodations to illustrate the impact of his fine motor challenge on the test results.

polarbear

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Interesting--DS just supposedly took the WJ achievement tests (not sure what form) as part of his IEP eval. I'm getting the results Monday! I'll probably be back with questions, having no idea what any of it means. IEP meeting Tuesday.

Perhaps you are being sarcastic but this actually happened in a slum India - an amazing article was written about it in The Times, I think? Or maybe it was Newsweek or Time... I can't remember right now. I can't link it now but I do have it at work I will link it on Monday...

What criteria do you see for most schools?

What is meant by the quality of the data?

Some would say that IQ is a measurement, much like height... not something one earns?

The criteria for that program is 92nd percentile, whereas her district is 98th percentile?

Some may say it depends upon what "the program" consists of?

Several posters have addressed the inquisitive mind which is characteristic of gifted children... the questions which they ponder, the curiosity they tend to possess... do not tend to go unnoticed.

The curiosity-driven child may tend to out-perform expectations, possibly annoying more advantaged families along the way. In recent conversations many have said they were not looking for labels but rather the appropriate challenge-level educational experiences; Some have called this the least-worst fit. In considering changes to educational approaches, please consider a system in which each child may be placed at the best (or least-worst) curriculum level for each individual subject... working with intellectual peers of similar readiness and ability, rather than seeking labels or hoping some may be impressed with IQ scores as though labels or scores are a judgment of one's intrinsic worth or value.

Indigo, I have run across the criteria for various schools in trying to understand the criteria for my DC's school. 98% CUT scores for achievement testing seem high (and no, I've performed no formal study) - especially in light of 2e issues, and other factors mentioned by PPs.

A large percentage of the gifted population is 2e (I seem to recall a statistic of as high as 1/6th of the gifted population, I could be off on this, though). They are no "less gifted," than the rest of the gifted population.

"Earned" was perhaps a poor choice of words - "attained," is that better? I am feeling a bit picked on here...

I should have clarified, "my program," was meant to describe a program I would design (if I could be queen of the world, I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek here) and not the program utilized by my DC's school. DC's uses different tests - so I do not think one can compare.

Actually, I believe that gifted characteristics (extreme curiosity, unusual interests) may INDEED go unnoticed if harsh cut-scores are utilized, without much other thought. I do think that too many school personnel tend to still believe most gifted students will typically display compliant, high achieving behavior. Many programs with "cut score" criteria (ours) also do NOT encourage the submission of portfolios or other data in their selection process. Actually, such unsolicited submission may be viewed as attempting to unduly influence the selection process, so any such additional submission could backfire.

Yes, the goal is NOT the label, as though it is an accomplishment. My point was more that some of the "intellectual peers of similar readiness and ability," may be missed by some of the selection methods being described.

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Part of my Ds's long story is this: DS was terribly bored and frustrated in math class. While he did not 'spontaneously' know the new concepts he mastered the work quickly and without a lot of repetition. He wanted to move ahead and learn more but was thwarted and discouraged from doing so and even disciplined for trying to do so. He found math class "excruciatingly boring" as a result. He did go on the internet and IXL and other places and tried to teach himself more (with some limited success). I was one who was not, at the time, interested in spending a bunch of money and time on private tutoring... We are in an excellent (and expensive) district and I was actually kind-of against such a thing, quite frankly. I was certain once DS's teacher saw that DS need more she would give it to him. In addition, I could not teach him math myself because I am terrible at it and just don't have the time. But I thought 'he'll be fine, school will realize and he'll get mor, etc.' Then, at an IEP meeting late in the year, I became painfully aware that Ds's teacher was not interested in differientiating for DS... She told me she thought DS was fine and "just wanted to feel special" (she said this to me and about 13 other people on DS's IEP team) - she said if he were bored it was probably because he has adhd (which he does not have a formal diagnosis of ). I sat in that meeting and realized no one wanted to give or teach DS more. I realized if he didn't get more instruction he would be stifled and, for the foreseeable future, appear not capable of more. He'd never get a super high achievement scores if he were not exposed to the material but that did not mean he didn't need the exposure! The principal closed the case on it right there on DS"s teacher's assessment. The school psych then gave DH and I a list of family psychologists to go to for "family counseling" (we were still perplexed by that, but I am thinking now it was because they all thought that *WE needed DS to be "special"* and that *DS also "needed" to feel special* and that we all needed some serious counseling for this. Uh, yeah. Humiliating.) It seemed like no one really believed in DS and I felt like they though *I* was being a neurotic, pushy tiger-mom. His WJIII achievement scores were average when normed for his age (but he was old for the grade) and about a year ahead when normed by grade. No big deal, they said, he's just fine how he is. That was when I decided to get him tutored. He LOVES it. He spends an hour each Saturday morning getting tutored in math. His WIAT and WJIII achievement scores went to 95%ile based on his age-norm in a matter of a few months. But most importantly he is thrilled to learn more and that someone actually believes he is capable of it!

I guess my point is that I agree with Blackcat. And I'd also like to point out that not all gifted children are the same.

As most of you know, my kid is 2e. He is also only mild/moderately gifted with a GAI of only 139. I realize there are very gifted and highly gifted kids who just 'know' things. And some need to be taught but learn the stuff quickly. My kid does just seem to know vocabularly and grammer. He is much more gifted there. His reasoning is in the 98th and 99th percentile on two different IQ/psycho-educ tests. Someone who hears him speak may think I drill him on vocab words or speech... but the reality is he just absorbs it... However, exposure is still necessary. He just latches on to words somehow. Math he loves but he doesn't just absorb it from the environment like he does words and speech - he does need some instruction in it.

And, btw, isn't this what the "cougar" analogy/article is all about?

Anyway, just my two-cents on this issue.

Oh, and Blackcat, your district does seem to be asking for a lot, imo! In my district, you need a WISC IV of 130 and you get in - you could have dyslexia (and be in the bottom reading group), you could not be able to write, you could have dyscaculia, autism, ADHD, whatever... You get a GAI or FSIQ of 130 you're in. If not then there are some different ways based on lower GAI/FSIQ combined with achievement tests and teacher recommendations that add to points. However, it's my feeling that the school's emphasis is on the 130 WISC score.

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