Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Best neuropsych for 2E?

DD will be needing another neuropsych eval in the next year or 2. I am willing to travel just about anywhere but want her evaluated by someone who *really* gets 2E. If I book now I have plenty of time to wait for just about any waiting list to clear. So who would you take your child to if you could see anyone?

Just as a reminder my DD has been labeled as "NLD-ish", not because she has NLD but "because its easier than saying super high verbal along with dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, math disability, etc." She has roughly 4 standard deviations between her verbal scores and visual perception, working memory and processing speed. She also has anxiety (only in school) and terrible migraines.

The last neuropsych labeled her with ADHD-inattentive (placing her below the 1st percentile in attention!) which we flatly reject. Not only have we not received complaints about an inability to attend but we actually routinely receive comments about how well she focuses. I am convinced that what he measured was her total shut down from anxiety from a test that relied on her weaknesses in visual perception, working memory, processing speed and fine motor skills. This is a big red flag about really wanting her tested by someone who specializes in 2E situations.

Thanks in advance!

The neuropsych that DS saw was helpful, but wasn't really interested in both "e's" and didn't say much about the gifted part, other than he should have gifted programming due to his different learning style and should be at the correct level academically with accomodations made. I don't think he'd even see a kid like your DD if she hasn't had something like a TBI, autism-like symptoms, etc. So I can't really answer your question.

One thing he DID do that I appreciated was computerized testing for ADHD. He thought that DS has ADHD based on DS's very squirrely behavior but was able to rule that out as a diagnosis (for now) when DS did well on computerized testing. Once he was given actual tasks to do (even extremely boring ones like the long computer test) he settled down and focused. ADHD diagnoses can be so subjective and you need data from several different measuress. So many people don't bother to do this.

I would probably take her to the Eides.

If I could take my DS anywhere.. that's where I'd take him!

The neuropsych that I took Ds to recently had no idea who the Eides were (never heard of stealth dyslexia, etc). That is the third neuropsych in my area that I have found is not familiar with their work - that really astounds me!

The Eides site suggests they have over a year backlog and they are closed to new patients. I think it has said that for a year! Does anyone know if it is even possible to get on their wait list? Or is the wait list closed too?

I've always wondered about the Gifted Development Center in Colorado. From what I've read they seem to "get it", but I have had no personal experience with them.

Are you familiar with the Belin Bank center at the university of Iowa? They specialize in 2e

http://www2.education.uiowa.edu/belinblank/Clinic/

Highly recommend the Eides.

Pem, sent you a PM.

The folks at the GDC do seem to "get it", and are very good at identifying giftedness in 2E children, but I don't believe they diagnose 2E. If they identify potential ADD, Visual/Auditory Processing Issues, Dyslexia/Stealth Dyslexia, Dysgraphia or other fine motor issues, etc., they will suggest seeing a specialist in each of these areas and/or a neuropsychologist depending on the issues. So the GDC is great for psychoeducational evaluations, but they don't provide all of the testing that a neuropsychologist does.

I keep checking but the Eides are still closed, even for waiting list. I really want to get on a wait list for someone good even if I cancel that when the Eides become available. So who? People here used to talk about a Dr. Amend in Ohio, Aimee Yermish in Massachusetts and Paul Beljan in Arizona but I haven't seen any if them mentioned lately. The one in Iowa looks great for straight giftedness but I'm not as sure about 2e...

Ideas? Suggestions? Feedback? All input welcome!

Eides are the first choice.

GDC is excellent with PG, but some of those who go there do go to the Eides afterword if the 2e is complex or requires attention to figuring out specifics or what to do.

I sent you a PM.

Good luck.

People who keep recommending the Eides, they are not taking new patients. It is pointless and rather cruel to keep telling us how wonderful they are when we cannot see them.

Pemberley, I've PMed you.

Pemberly is it worth contacting the Eides in writing with a brief summary (previous test scores perhaps) and ask if they would put you on their list. The fact that you KNOW you have a highly complex issue for which there are few other good options might make them inclined to help or at least point you in the right direction elsewhere. I once had the opportunity to speak to Tony Attwood (girls and aspergers expert) for just 2 mins about our DD and he very kindly pointed us at the right person to finally make some sense of everything.

Also, I would totally contact Amy Yermish.

Summit Center Dan Peters- fantastic they get it and the tester was engaging and skillful with working from a strengths base and reestablishing success after the tests that were testing the e part of the 2e! Highly recommend!

I finally bit the bullet and emailed the Eides. Got an immediate response from him. They remain closed to new families so they can concentrate on non profit work. He pointed me to The Center for Exceptional Learners in Connecticut. Website looks interesting. Anyone know anything about them?

http://www.ccfel.com/about-us/professional-staff/

Perhaps look into Kennedy Krieger/Johns Hopkins Hospital/JHU-CTY in Maryland? These are separate but inter-related organizations. It is also possible if your DD's profile is "interesting" enough to a particular doctor and his current research that they will make a place for your DD ahead of other patients/clients.

I highly recommend Dr. Melanie Crawford in Reno, if you will be out west for any reason. She came recommended from our YS consultant and was worth every minute we spent with her. She was also the only person to take the OT eval and the PT eval from our doctor! as well as previous DYS qualifying tests and compare it to new data and come to Developmental a Coordination Disorder. It fit perfectly and was a big "duh!" Moment but we needed that!

If you won't be out west, I recommend Belin Blank. We had a phone consult with Dr. Foley-Nipon (I might have that wrong) and she was amazing on the phone and led is to Dr. Crawford and recommended we not travel to Iowa just for an evaluation. That takes a lot of professionalism in my book!

Hi Pemberley! I just PMed you about my experiences with a few of the people you mentioned. Hope it helps!

Bumping this up because it's a lot of what I was looking for...

Has anyone used the alternate testers recommended by the Eides on their website:
Dr. Liz Smith of Kinderminds (Bellevue, WA)
Dr. Dan Peters of Summit Centers (San Francisco)

It's frustrating that the Eides are still not taking patients, especially since we're local to them so an eval wouldn't even require traveling.

We used Liz Smith, and were quite happy with her. I'll PM you my email address if you have questions.

The Eides (on their website) now refer East Coast families to Dr. Devon MacEachron. Does anyone have experience with her that they'd be willing to share here or privately in a PM? We are on the East Coast and would consider her. Thanks!

A few months ago I contacted the Eides and Brock Eide wrote back recommending Dr MacEachron. I asked here and received several PM's from people who have worked with her and were very happy. My district is currently in the process of approving her for my DD's next evaluations. The only problem I see is that she is a certified School Psychologist not a neuropsychologist. With my DD's complex situation I'm not sure if that will be enough.

As a SP myself, I just have to mention that a doctoral-level SP (which Dr. MacEachron is) has nearly the same training in assessment as a NP, and more training in school-based interventions (instructional practices, behavior/classroom management, and systems work)--it's more a question of philosophy and context.

Dealing with complex cases is less a function of the difference between a SP and NP's training, and more a function of clinical experience, as what you are really looking for is someone who has seen enough, is intelligent enough, and is a nuanced enough clinician, to interpret testing results through the lens of the whole child, and not the reverse. Especially for 2e, where the most important data often doesn't come from the composite norms.

(I don't know her myself.)

Thank you Pemberly and aeh. Your responses were very helpful. I was also concerned about seeing someone who wasn't a neuropsych since we are interesting in getting a diagnosis (or ruling out) dyslexia, ADD, and dysgraphia for our PG son. We had previously been to the GDC in Colorado for IQ testing, but they were not able to provide diagnoses for 2E issues. I gave Dr. MacEachron a call and she has a lot of experience with 2E kids and her battery of tests will look in depth at these issues.

Pi22 when you spoke to her did she explain when/if she would recommend a neuropsych instead? We already had one neuropsych eval that was deemed "invalid" and we lost a year (not to mention $3000!) waiting to retest. aeh do you have an opinion as to when/if a neuropsych would be better?

Honestly, it depends on the psych you have. Some SPs can generate an eval just as good as or better than a neuropsych (some actually have post-doctoral certification as school neuropsychs, too).

In reality, the assessment training received by doctoral-level school psychs, neuropsychs, and clinical psychs is very similar, and probably varies more by graduate training program than by specialization. Neuropsychs have a little more neuroanatomy and cognitive science in their basic science education, and an additional course that focuses on tests like the Delis-Kaplan, WCST, and pegboard--but some SPs and CPs have that course, too. Clinical psychs spend a little more time on psychopath--but again, some SPs and NPs may, as well. I've already mentioned that SPs tend to be stronger in school, systems, and behavior--but a CP or NP could choose electives in those areas during their training or later.

I think if you are looking at an outside eval, in response to a recalcitrant district or poorly-conducted school eval, there is definitely value in going to a neuropsych, partly because of the name impact it has on the school system. On the average, neuropsychs are more likely to have certain (very expensive) instruments available, due to the kind of referral questions people bring to them, like the TOVA, IVA, or CCPT. There is no professional or ethical reason a SP or CP could not validly administer and interpret these, but their typical clientele are less likely to require them, so it's not as cost-effective to purchase them.

A CP is the most likely of the three to have access to a Rorschach, so if that kind of perception, ego structure, and reality testing is what you're looking for, then that would be the place to go.

SPs are more likely than the other two to seek collaborative solutions with families and school systems, and less likely to place the onus of disability on the individual child. Recommendations are more likely to consider the ecology of the school, and to be communicated in the language of school culture, thus being more readily accepted by school personnel. So if that's what you need, then take that into the decision-making process as well.

Bottom line, you need to have a good conversation with the psych before signing on. Ask for references, what school systems they've worked with, what a sample battery of assessments would be, based on the referral question, what they would do if an unexpected result came up in the standard battery, who their audience is when they are writing recommendations, their experience with the clinical population most likely in question, how they establish rapport with whatever type of difficult-to-draw-out child you have, etc. Don't be afraid to ask detailed questions. You are representing the client (your child). And -please- allow any evaluator access to prior testing history, to avoid invalidating thousands of dollars worth of testing by re-administering something that has been given recently!

Aufilia-Did you find a local dr you would recommend? I'm in Edmonds and would love to find someone near by.

aeh - great info!


In the past we went to Dr. John Wasserman - phd, clinical neurophyschology, Fairfax, Va.
Very familiar with 2e and can do a full physchological+educational evaluation.
The info he provided was solid, detailed and above all helpful; included a plan for moving forward.

We also used Dr. John Wasserman and had a good experience with him. He was thorough and kind.

DD ended up seeing Dr Philip Dunbar-Mayer in Bellevue with my daughter last year (PG, ADHD, Asperger's). I think his dx was spot-on and has been very helpful. We did IQ and achivement testing with him prior to doing the full eval, and prior to confirmation of Asperger's and PG-ness, and that was also solid.

I just took my DS to see Dr. Lionel Enns in Bellevue (I'd've taken him back to Dr Dunbar-Mayer, but the wait list was too long for what we needed) and liked him quite a bit, but as with my DD when she was the same age, it seems DS will remain a puzzle to everyone, at least until he's over age 6 and/or decides to play along.

I'm reviving this thread because I am once again in the market for a good 2E evaluator. Last time we used the doctoral level school psychologist Brock Eide recommended when I contacted him to see if there was any chance of getting in to their now closed clinic. DD was tested for 14 hours over a 3 day period. Very expensive (paid for by my school district thankfully), very extensive and very detailed. Unfortunately there were a few significant problems with the report. That combined with the cost makes both me and the school district uncomfortable returning for a follow up.

My school district will once again pay but I probably am not in a position to travel anywhere as I was last time. (I likely need to stay within the NYC-Boston corridor.) She has 11 (yes eleven) current diagnoses. Every LD imaginable but not ADHD or on the spectrum. According to the last evaluator DD's numbers exist in 0.0% of the population. Very, very complex so we need someone who *really* gets 2E and the nuance of how these different issues interact.

If I can't find a better alternative I might have to go back to the first local neuropsych who labeled her "NLD-ish" and ADHD-Inattentive with attentional skills below the 1st percentile despite the fact that literally no one thought these were accurate. (Last evaluator dismissed both and said "in fact her attentional skills appear to be an area of *significant* strength".) I think he missed the mark on DD's real issues but was effective with the school district and helped pave the way for both enrichment and OOD placement. Not a bad guy but I would have to figure out what to ask him beforehand to be sure we didn't once again receive such off the mark diagnoses. Or decide if they in and of themselves take him out of the running...

TIA. Any and all input is welcome.

Deirdre Lovecky is in Providence, RI.

If you don't mind I'm going to ride on your coattails P - if anyone knows a good 2e evaluator in Southern California (neuropsych preferred) I would appreciate hearing about them.

Or Tri-state area? Would consider Yale to Philly...

My large District immediately says no when asking for an independent external evaluation (IEE). The district usually provides a barebones psychoeducational that provides a full-scale IQ. DS15 had a 2012 neuropsychological evaluation showing IQ subtests that scatter between low average and high average. Verbal and Language-Mediated Tasks and Abilities that scattered between low average and very superior. The rest of the evaluation was consistently scattered.

I met with a well known school psychologist (Phd) in private practice and want to use her for an IEE at District expense. I am using the argument for a private evaluation, because DS15 needs a seasoned evaluator and more subtests in processing speed and other areas. I also sent the District a letter more than 30 days ago requesting an IEE, which was ignored. I have argued that the District "may not unreasonably delay" an IEE rule. Has anyone's DC been approved for a District payed IEE because of the "unreasonable delay" rule?

I could really use some help on how to articulate this argument. I filed a state complaint and the District is now listening, but is saying they need to check with their District attorneys for the "unreasonable delay". Any help, is so much appreciated!

I feel like I am almost there with at least one DS.

Bumping again. Meeting tomorrow and trying to round out my list of neuropsychs people have had successfully test their complex 2E kiddos. Ideally in the northeast (USA). I haven't had luck finding someone in state yet so I may get district to agree to out of state if I pay for transportation. If you have had a good experience please let me know regardless of location.

DD will be turning 12 this month and has 11 current diagnoses including just about every possible LD. Major processing issues but no ADD or spectrum issues. No behavior issues. Hardworking, focused, easy to test and eager to learn.

Thanks in advance!